An Accredited Breeder who has bred no less than SEVEN litters in the last six months? I believe 4 of one breed and 3 of another?? Needless to say she started as, 'once I had been to a local show and came back with group wins and loads of rossetes, I realised I had stunning dogs' ermm ok??? Also another 2 litters planned for end Nov and end Dec?! I just can't see any reason other than money as to why someone would breed so much?

Maybe I'm just being unfair and they are entitled to breed 'willy nilly' and I have no reason to comment?? What do you think?

I forgot to add...I would say at any Open show, if there are no other entries you could probably take a duck in and win!!!! ;-) (yes, I'm joking...but I would see wins at a Championship show more impressive!)

> Maybe I'm just being unfair and they are entitled to breed 'willy nilly' and I have no reason to comment?? What do you think?

Preaching to the converted on here - I can't think of a single regular poster who would think this ok

if this is how the accredited breeders scheme is run
now i know why myself and other do not want to register for it
sorry but puppy farmer springs to mind

I believe I know the person you're talking about - or rather I've looked at their website. It would appear that every one of their bitches had a litter late last year :-(

It's really unfortunate and I'm not sure what the answer is, from the website I reckon this person doesn't think they're doing anything wrong.... just like the posters we always get on here asking about breeding. How do we educate the general public so they realise that not every bitch should be bred from? How on earth do we get people to see that they should enjoy learning about their dog, showing or working their dog/s before they even consider breeding?

Hi, as you know i have just bred my first litter after lots and lots of learning, with the support of a mentor and the breed in mind.

However, the kennel club is a joke! i was told by someone on here i should support the kennel club accreditted breeder scheme. Having read about it i thought the puppy packs would be useful and i was fulfilling the criteria anyway so applied.

Can you believe i am a accreditted breeder despite having never bred a litter before. Surely to use this accreditation, to the general public it would suggest you are some what of an expert not a first time breeder.

Whilst i have the certificate and membership i have never advertised this fact because i feel it is misleading and should be saved for those who are expert and better than first time breeders and puppy farmers. It should be used to show a difference.

What do you think?

I know of someone in my breed who currently has 7 litters advertised on the KC puppy registers , in 3 different breeds , all bred in the last 2/3 months. She has a total of 30 puppies , 21 dogs and 9 bitches !!! They are being advertised at half the normal "going" rate on another website ( with NO endorsments ) hence bred purely for the money without much thought to the future of the puppies !!! And yes she is an Accredited Breeder , she joined simply because it was the only way to get round the breeding of more than 4 litters a year rule !! Who knows how many other bitches are currently mated or have just had litters etc...and just how can anyone give enough to all those puppies!!

> Hi, as you know i have just bred my first litter after lots and lots of learning, with the support of a mentor and the breed in mind.
>

I think you may find it is your 'mentor' that is being referred to.

Can I ask, what people's ideas of a mentor would be?       I look upon my mentors as being people who, in my breed, have been around since it's earliest years and have bred occasional consistent quality litters  - not necessarily litter after litter.   Anyone can breed a litter of puppies and call themselves a breeder but to me a mentor is someone who's stock have started other breeders off with good quality pups, always there with advice, knows the dogs behind the pedigrees etc.

I thought you could not use the KC breed listings if you bred more than four litters in a year.

Do these people have a breeders License from their Local Authorities, as that is the law of the land if they have bred five litters in any 12 month period.

A letter to their Local authorities are in order methinks.

> Can I ask, what people's ideas of a mentor would be?

Same as yours.  My mentors were successful breeders who had started many a new breeder and exhibitor off.  Sadly both my early mentors are now deceased.

An "Accredited breeder" churns out SEVEN litters in SIX months ...... It defies belief.

>Maybe I'm just being unfair and they are entitled to breed 'willy nilly' and I have no reason to comment?? What do you think?<

No Dawn, your'e not being unfair. I doubt if this 'accredited breeder' has any justification breeding so many so close. I certainly wouldn't take any advice from a 'mentor' like that.

You can only use the breed listings for up to 4 litters a year UNLESS you are an Accredited Breeder , once you have joined the scheme you can list as many litters as you like , which is one of the reasons the scheme has attracted such negative publicity , as some see it as a license to "puppy farm" with the KC's blessing.

> I think you may find it is your 'mentor' that is being referred to.

If this is who I think it is (had a nosey at the litter ad on CD) I had a call from a lady asking for 'impartial unbiased advice' on this mentor only two days ago. She asked all the usual questions but finished with "do you think that £1300 is too much for a show quality male puppy?"

I nearly fell of my chair!!

I know this breed is more expensive than others but this woman was talking about a WEEK OLD PUP that shes been told will be show quality. TBH I think she'll be daft to go through with this. Obviously I told her that I personally think this is too much, but if shes happy with the pup and wants to spend that much who am I to judge?

She also started the conversation with "Im thinking of buying a puppy from E********(insert affix ;-)) parents...". To me it sounds like they are selling these pups on the merits of someone elses decades of hard work. Not too mention that this is misleading. I had to ask her if they came from the two ladies who own the affix and only then did she check to see if it was the one and the same. Obviously it wasnt as its the 'mentor' mentioned previously.

Yes they do Barbara, they do say they are licensed breeders with being registered at their local Council...obviously can't mention where they live, but it is indeed an area that used to be infamous for Puppy Farmers!

I wonder if the owner of that particular affix knows what's happening?? Might be interesting to find out their reaction to this??? :-)

What do I think of it - probably best not to say on a forum like this but I think sums it up, grrr.

I think exactly the same ND, why would anyone want to breed that many litters unless they had pound signs in their eyes ?!? Sadly potential puppy purchasers who do not know about showing will be impressed by all her rosettes and wins and will automatically think she is a fantastic breeder - I agree about the open show / champ show wins thing too.

The Accredited Breeder scheme appears to be very flawed - theres a lady in my breed who is an AB who sells puppies that she buys in from puppy farms!! People have reported it to the KC but they have done diddly squat about it :-(

I always smile when I read posts that say "I've done lots of research" when related to breeding and never specify what they've done.  Further posts usually demonstrate they they haven't got a clue about what they're doing or their breed. :(

My breed mentor has been in my breed for many years and as you say, has bred consistent quality litters including many champions, but not litter after litter. She is actively involved in the breed clubs and very well respected as a championship judge of this breed. We can chat for hours about dogs from her past and pedigrees. I am very lucky to have her as my mentor and will be eternally grateful for the help and advice that she has given me!

Hi, i feel my litter is being commented on here. when i decided to go into this litter (and it was a one off) I went to shows, i have a lifetime in dog grooming, training and i spoke to many breeders. I am well read on the subject and i chose a bitch that has grown to meet breed standard.

I have had enquiries from people wanting to show and i have shown them her pedigree certificate but said i cannot promise they will be show quality and indeed i have avoided show homes because i know there are better people out there to advise on show dogs. I have sold only to pet.

The lady i refer to as my mentor has several years in breeding but i perhaps have been taken in a little bit judging by some of your comments. My girl has her prefix but the stud doesnt.

I am sure you all bred your first litter then thought "i will learn from that" or "could do better". i have learned a lot but if i have chosen support from the wrong directions then it was naivity and nothing else. There is definately no puppy farming going on any where and all dogs are raised with love and care.

Please private message me with any advice, i want to learn but will, like all of you make mistakes along the way but these forums are for support and advice from experts like yourselves.

I do believe that you have your girls interests at heart W1, and that you have went into this with the best of intentions. You've bought a puppy from someone who has dogs purely to breed from (or so it would appear) therefore it was natural for you to breed from your girl. Our concern is that we think people should show or work their dogs and prove them to be worthy of breeding from before they actually start breeding. I don't believe anyone should have a litter from their pet bitch just because she has a pedigree and the owner thinks they look nice - rescues are full of pedigree dogs afterall. There are plenty of pups from really well thought out litters, litters were both parents have been fully health tested and proven themselves in a particular field to satisfy the pet market too without the need for anyone breeding purely pet puppies.

The problem is that posters don't realise they shouldn't be breeding until they have mated their bitch then go searching the net for advice. I'd love to know how to educate people better.

I hope I've made clear W1 that I'm not 'getting' at you at all, I would say you bought your girl from the wrong place and haven't had the best advice. It doesn't make you a bad owner  :-)

Wiltshireone - as your reply was to me I just thought I'd point out that none of my comments about breeding for money etc were directed to you :-)

I don't think anyone was commenting on your personally...more on your mentor if that's who it is?? My only comment for you would be that seeing as how you had so many problems, why didn't your mentor help you more? It just seemed to me that the only good advice you got was from helpful people on this forum? But don't take it as a comment on your personal circumstances. I think if you are willing and able to learn then can only be a positive outcome for it all, can't it??

I think the main problem, purely from my point of view, is that if people don't show their dogs(at CHAMPIONSHIP level and of course working trials etc etc if wanting for work/trials etc) and are inexperienced themselves, how the heck can they judge how good their dog/s are? Joe public has no idea, any pup looks cute to them. The other issue is that more often than not inexperienced pet owners breed from their dogs without carrying out reccomended health checks. I don't know everyones breed issues, but certainly for Newfies it is heart, hips, elbows and cystinuria. I know people on this board that have bought from unhealth tested or screened parents and are now paying the price!

So you see, it's not just the excessive breeding that is an issue, but also the ignorance about health issues and the self persuaion about 'quality' that goes along with the ignorance. Sorry if that offends anyone, it is purely my opinion...

Hi Tigger,
I am actually feeling very sick at the thought that people think that i shouldnt have bred my girl. My breed only have small litters and i will keep one and have 3 very good homes for the others.
Showing is something i intend to do but my lifestyle (young child) doesnt allow for dedicating myself to that for now (geographically, but i can be at home with my litter) but with my knowledge and experience i made the decision to breed and went online and researched prior to doing this. I will make no money from this due to time out of work, cost of equiptment, vets bills etc. In fact i will be spaying my girl after her experience but hope that one of her off spring will allow me to enter the show world (fingers crossed).

Perhaps you all think i have done this the wrong way round and that "pets" shouldnt be bred but please believe me that i havent done this lightly and if i have made a mistake it wasnt because i dont care or any other motive.,

on the subject of educating new breeders, i think there is a real danger that established breeders arent always open to supporting and mentoring new breeders and indeed a lot of forums attack them at the meer suggestion of breeding (not this one). i have received lots of supportive private messages from this forum and all have commented that it is hard for people like myself and we do get a hard time. The next generation of breeders need you,the established breeders, to teach and support not prevent and attack in all cases. I am not referring to you Tigger or CD but my first reaction to reading this thread and realising i was being critisised was to disapear but i want to learn. I must admit to feeling hurt and gutted by the learning that 1. i am getting complained to admin about and 2. that i have damaged my breed or girl. I love my breed and my dog and will learn from this if allowed.

I'm curious and have a number of questions about the advice that you've been given rather than your intentions, but will ask just one.  Why have you been advised to advertise the bitch pups for more money than the dogs, with 'no endorsements' after the price?  Is it to make them more attractive to yet more back yard breeders to make money producing pet quality puppies?

I think thats a great post Newfiedreams and would fully agree with you.

For example, my CKCS was my OH's ex wife's dog before I moved in with him. She's by no means the worst example of a CKCS I have ever seen, but she's not the best either. I asked my OH about where he got her from and he told me, "oh a proper breeder. She shows and everything, had loads of rosettes." I did a little research into her pedigree and the sire is from a well known and successful show kennel, but her dam was several generations of pet breeding (ie without an affix). The lady had shown the dam at a few companion and open shows and done well, so OH had seen her rosettes and automatically thought she was a decent breeder because she shows.

Sadly, although Pixie's sire was health checked, the dam was not, so I try to keep her as healthy as possible as I know health checks are vital in Cavaliers and she is more at risk of developing a heart problem. This lady was breeding for money as I later found out she had 2 litters at the same time and charged a lot for them with no health checks etc, but had the gift of the gab and talked my OH (who doesn't know a great deal about dogs) into getting this pup on the basis that she was from 'show quality' parents.

Also makes you think about the stud dog owners doesn't it ??

Im not trying to get at anyone here, just trying to expand on ND's post a bit more...

This is a really interesting conversation.....

As for why didnt my mentor help, she did! She was on the phone at 3am and 6.30am, the biggest issue i had, if i am honest, is that the vet and my mentor didnt have the same opinions. Not sure i will ever know who was right.

Glad we can debate these things. This is how new breeders learn!

Westcoast, i must admit that my advertisements were naive and taken from looking at other ads more than anything. As it happens the pups are all going to "older" people homes who assure me they arent going to be bred - the ad was to get a volume of enquiries to choose from and i have been very lucky to have found 3 of the best homes!

As for the price difference between dogs and bitches, again, it was normal i am told and clearly when i found my girl i spoke to several breeders and it was the case.

I think that established breeders are happy to help newcomers if they start by learning about the breed rather than talk about breeding before they have any understanding. 

If I get an enquiry from a person who says that they want a bitch and plan to breed, then I never have anything suitable for them. ;)  Apart from anything else, how can they possibly help the owners of their pups when they have problems when they don't have the network of experienced breeders behind them?  But if I get an enquiry from someone wanting to learn about the breed, show their dog and, when it has been consistantly placed (not necessarily won) at Champ Shows, then and only then, I will happily share my knowledge and experience with them. :)

Again, I'll say it...no one is going at you personaly, I didn't start this off to get at you did I? It was a topic that maybe people will look at and think about what they do. You, unfortunatley, have learnt the hard way that it's not all plain sailing. I think everyone on this board has tried to help and guide you. I believe Admin was contacted over the issue of your user name, I don't know, I didn't contact them(I'm on their hit list anyways!)  I believe the issue was that usernames are sometimes 'used' to advertise litters available, as some people are quite cute at asking 'innocent' questions on a forum and by using their breed name as a username they advertise the fact they have a litter!

Hi Newfie,

i know noone is getting at me but lets just say "pennies are dropping" and i feel like running for the hills! Everyone on here has been fab and brilliant and several have PM'd me and will stay in contact which is fab. I am at the beginning of a journey and hope in years to come to be able to have knowledge like yours!!!

> As it happens the pups are all going to "older" people homes who assure me they arent going to be bred

Wiltshireone, just an idea - is it too late to put endorsements on your pups ?? Then you will know for definite that your puppy owners wont be able to breed from them - well, they wont be able to register them with the KC anyway. :-)

I would imagine that the pups reg hasn't been applied for yet with waiting on the likely survival of them all.  I believe that all pups should be endorsed and a proper contract signed as to whether they may ever be lifted.

I have always endorsed my puppies including those I keep myself.

Life is a journey, enjoy the ride, I don't think we ever stop learning or ever know enough about all sorts of things. For instance, I'm trying to learn how to be tactful!!! Now there's a thing, won't Admin be pleased!!!???? ;-)

Wiltshireone, just an idea - is it too late to put endorsements on your pups ?

Surely should be time as they've only just been born. :)

I endorse all my pups even if they go to people MORE experienced than me. I have one puppy buyer who has had the breed longer than me who would like me to lift the endorsement on their bitch so they can have a litter. I'm happy to to do it, the bitch has her stud book number, they are good people, they have discussed what dog to use with me, but I'm not doing it until I have seen hip scores and eye tests with good results.

Can you believe i am a accreditted breeder despite having never bred a litter before. Surely to use this accreditation, to the general public it would suggest you are some what of an expert not a first time breeder.

I think we all agree the scheme is flawed, but it isn't there to promote people with experience, it's there to promote health testing and similar. As you are totally new there are 3 accolades that will NOT show up on your ABS membership: You haven't bred at least 5 litters, you haven't bred at least 3 dogs that gained their stud book numbers, and presumably (?) you are not a breed club member. At least with those little badges added people can get an idea if somebody has ever bred a litter or not. (Although I think the 5 litters rule is daft -the person mentioned did that in a few months whereas for most other people it would take at least 5 years and probably more!)

Can I ask, what people's ideas of a mentor would be?       I look upon my mentors as being people who, in my breed, have been around since it's earliest years and have bred occasional consistent quality litters  - not necessarily litter after litter.

Fully agree with you there Christine and in my case it's a person who has had the breed for over 30 years, in fact started the breed off here so knows ALL the dogs in the pedigrees, had a good litter once a year and has produced very good pups, hence has the experience over many years. I'm always asking her for help and advice as no matter how many years go past, she will ALWAYS have more experience than me.

> Wiltshireone, just an idea - is it too late to put endorsements on your pups ?

"Boys £1000 Girls £1200 no endorsements" this is taken from their ad on a well known puppy site. If you really do want to learn W1 I suggest you delete this ad and if readvertising state they will be endorsed....this is what good breeders that aren't just interested in the money do.

Just a thought but if this litter is now sold , the people have bought them as having NO endorsments clearly stated in the ad. they could argue this point , so maybe this could be tricky.

The pups are only a couple of days old, plenty time to explain to the prospective owners that their papers would be endorsed. If they don't like it they're not the sort of owners you'd want anyway surely?

Hi

Sorry the ad is so old i thought it had expired. All purchasers came from CD and yes i can put endorsements on the litter. I have emailed all the owners to let them know. It wont be a problem and if it is then i will know they are saying one thing and plan another.

I will delete all ads now.

Thanks for all the PM's, as we all say, you live and learn and i am taking all this advice the way it is meant x

Edit: Ads deleted as all sold, the new owners are fine with teh endorsement.

i am taking all this advice the way it is meant

Brilliant.  Sometimes tone doesn't come over in the written word and can be misunderstood. :)

Ads deleted as all sold, the new owners are fine with teh endorsement.

Great! :)

Excellent well done :-)

Interesting that people are suggesting you have to show your dog BEFORE breeding . I have always been advised (by show people) that no breeder will be keen to sell a show quality puppy (especially not a bitch) as they will will always want to keep the best for themselves. That certainly makes perfect sense to me. Therefore, if someone wants a nice quality bitch for showing they need to breed it themself,  with lots of help and advice from a breed mentor along the way. Chances are it may well take a few generations (even with the use of a quality stud) to produce anything good enough for the show ring - but for someone like me, with a family to raise, that is perfectly ok. I am lucky enough not to have to go out to work (so I am always around for when there is a litter - infrequently) and have a wonderful breed mentor who has taught me so much. And when I feel my children are old enough to allow me more free time to show, I shall pursue it. In the meantime, I will breed a litter when I want a bitch for myself to improve my line.
Showing however, will always be regarded as a fun hobby - nothing more - the health issues related to my breed, however, will always be taken very seriously and my main priority and concern. Showing is not the be all and end all as some might think.

Edited to say surely it is more rewarding showing a dog you have bred yourself ?

But the show quality pup may be the wrong sex for what the breeder wants so may share the pup with another individual or sell/give to a quality show home.  And the whole litter can be show quality, just one might catch the breeder's eye, quirks that the dam has perhaps? 

I have always been advised (by show people) that no breeder will be keen to sell a show quality puppy (especially not a bitch) as they will will always want to keep the best for themselves.

That's simply not true. In toy breeds with very small litters yes it can be hard to get a bitch but not impossible and in larger breeds no problem at all. I've bought and shown a Cavalier bitch, a Malinois bitch (she has a CC) and Golden Retriever bitches. You can't keep them ALL when you breed. I have bred and sold 3 pups that have gained their stud book number, two of them by winning an RCC, two of them bitches.

Edited to say surely it is more rewarding showing a dog you have bred yourself ?

No, THE most rewarding experience is having other people show and do well with dogs you've bred. :) Nothing beats that.

> Can you believe i am a accreditted breeder despite having never bred a litter before. Surely to use this accreditation, to the general public it would suggest you are some what of an expert not a first time breeder.
>
> Whilst i have the certificate and membership i have never advertised this fact because i feel it is misleading and should be saved for those who are expert and better than first time breeders and puppy farmers. It should be used to show a difference.
>

i think i like your thinking :)

Well, obviously I was referring to my own (toy) breed where litters are usually small, so I would say it is very difficult to obtain a show quality bitch from a breeder/exhibitor. In any case,  it is not only what I was advised, it is also by far my own personal preference to try and breed my own show girl.

To Marianne:

I meant it is more rewarding to show a dog you have bred yourself as oppose to one  someone else bred !

No doubt it must be nice to see someone do well in the ring with a dog you have bred, but for someone like me that is many moons away (if ever lol).