Hi everyone!

I know you are all going to think I am mad but I have a 13 week old Samoyed pup (male and will be neutered at approx 6 months) and we are getting a Newfoundland puppy (male, to be neutered also) in 3 weeks time.

I have planned this for over a year and both my partner and I have done alot of research so we are well aware of the amount of work involved - especially since having the Sammie - he's a little b*gger at times!=o).

I was wondering if any of you had integrated 2 young pups in the past and if you had any tips/suggestions? We will not leave the pups alone unattended, as I think this could be risky but at what age do you think this would be possible?

Thanks v much for any advice you can give me!

Claire

My first reaction would be don't do it! :D

Also your plans for neutering I would think far to young for the pups development.  Is there any real need to neuter either?

I have a 5 1/2 month pup and a  nearly 4 week litter at the moment and it is a nightmare already keeping her from trying to play with the pups by bopping them on the head.

If I was keeping one of these it would be a case of keeping them entirely separate so that each could be trained without leading the other astray and being dog focused instead of people orientated, except for some walks, not practical in a normal home.

I don't think there will be any problems at all in the pups getting on, or being able to be left together unattended. The problems are all going to be yours because with two dogs so close together in age they will bond with each other rather than you. Dogs like this tend to follow pack rules rather than human rules. I would strongly advise cancelling your newfie pup and leaving it for about two years. If you must have another dog right now then perhaps an older rescue dog may be better.

I go along with that entirely, it is extremely hard work to seperately train two puppies, seperate walks, seperate training, they will get on together being young pups but it really is a pain in the bum with all the extra work to be fitted in with your normal routine,not to be taken on lightly.

One thing I always think of when people mention they are getting two puppies together is the issue of where they are getting them from.  I don't, personally, know any reputable breeder that would allow their puppy to go into such an uncertain future which begs the question have you been supplied by someone who also does not care enough to have bred a healthy, well socialised puppy from health screened, typical and temperamentally sound parents.  Are you quite confident that is not the case here but this could just add to the difficulties you may face.

I am not meaning to sound sharp but I think you should ask yourself why you are even thinking of getting a second pup when you have not finished training the first one and why are you wanting to neuter. If you have some good reason to neuter then please wait till the dog is fully mature the Samoyed at about 2 1/2 and the Newfoundland about 3 and be warned that both dogs are likely to develop impossible coats if you do neuter.

Please think very carefully about what you are thinking of doing and who or what will gain from this action.

> I know you are all going to think I am mad

I suspect if you spend any time looking through the topics on this forum you'll already know the answer to that :)  In the last few weeks alone there have been a number of people either asking about whether to get two puppies or how to cope once the decision has been made.  Do please have a look at what has been said.

I've not been on here for years like some members but I've been around long enough to know that all advice is given with the dog's needs in mind.  You may get answers you don't want to hear but it IS given with the best of intentions.  There is a wealth of experience that you can access at any time of day should you ever have need of it and you would do well to listen carefully.

No one with any experience of living with dogs is likely to ever suggest two puppies with an age gap of 8 weeks.  Most people would recommend a minimum of 1 year and many will not consider anything less than 2 or 3 years.  Two puppies will not just double the work they will quadruple your effort.  Just imagine toilet training?  And who will look after puppy no 1 whilst you are at training classes with pup no 2? Because you wouldn't want them both in the same class, even with different handlers, as it will be very distracting for them, and you.

I do not want to be disrespectful about the research you have done but I fear it is not enough.  2 puppies, 2 different breeds?  Even if you are both at home full time it's a lot to take on; and if you are thinking of going to work...  !!   These boys will be hard work and are going to be pups for far longer than you might expect.  There are a number of members with real breed experience on here - have a look around and see what you can find.  I'd recommend really taking the time to enjoy your Samoyed, let him blossom as a single dog and then make a decision.

Hi,
Don.t have two males, neutered or not they will fight. It would have been a better idea to have a male and female.
You will end up getting one or both rehomed. Have you done your research on managing a samoyed that has been neutered?
Not many people can manage a samoyed after being neutered. A lot end up in samoyed rescue.

Denese

I'll just add my voice to everyone else's. I currently HAVE two puppies (4 months old) and I spend most of the day hitting my head against the wall -it's not enjoyable at ALL to have two, it's a nightmare and far more than fulltime work. In my case I had no choice though as I bred them myself and the final home fell through and no other suitable home was found so I HAD to keep two. I'd never do it by choice, I'd rather go to the dentist!

>In my case I had no choice though as I bred them myself and the final home fell through and no other suitable home was found so I HAD to keep two. I'd never do it by choice, I'd rather go to the dentist!

Ditto. It's no fun at all; just effort and more effort, for years and years.

I have a 17 month old Mastiff, not too different in temperment to the Newfie (both pretty laid-back natures). I have had my hands full recently with 'teenage' behaviour from him. I couldn't imagine staying sane & doing right by the dogs if I had another teenage dog here with me

Why, after a lot of planning , would you choose to get another pup now, rather than wait untill your current dog is mature?

> Don.t have two males, neutered or not they will fight

Puzzled.  I have one castrated male, and 4 entire males, and no fighting.  They all live indoors, and sleep together in the kitchen

I have never had a problem with males fighting either but none of mine are neutered.

Hi Claire, I do agree with the others about taking on two young pups BUT!

I too had a similar situcation to yours about 5 years ago, long story but was on a waiting list for a puppy and was told the mating missed so contacted another breeder and got a pup, then was told that the first breeders bitch had actually taken and this bloodline was what I wanted so basically I ended up with two pups with about 5 months apart.

It was VERY hard work, trying to bond with both pups, trying to house train both pups, and training them both, very very stressful!

But I made sure that I took time out for both of them, making sure they both had individual time with me to train etc:
And 5 years on, we have managed to live in harmony with two adorable girls, they are like twins really, Ihave a very good girl, and a sometimes very bad girl! but all in all I managed to train both, etc
I guess the house training process took a bit longer then I have done in the past, but I felt it was just like having two newborn baby twins!
Although I would NEVER take on two pups at the same time again! But if you have the time and the patiences you will be fine.

Once both was totally house trained and had some basic training I felt more comfortable in leaving them both together unsupervised for short periods, but I do use crates to train my pups, so they had individual ones, and as they was pups I had to make sure that they did not play for too long!

Hope it all goes well keep in touch x

Don.t have two males, neutered or not they will fight.

i,ve had 5 males and 2 bitches and none of mine never had a fight
all un neutered
i agree with the 2 pups together will be very hard work
better to wait till pup is older

Hi montymoo,

What breed are you five males, are they all the same age?

Denese

I have 2 pups with a 3 week age difference.
Yes initially they were very close to one another, this did have one benefit, no tears at night, but now the bond between them has eased up and is very strong towards me.

House training was not particularly difficult and did not take any longer than a single pup, possibly due to them 'learning' from my 3 older girls.
Having said that my pups are a smaller breed and maybe that makes them easier to manage I don't know. I think having the older dogs has had an effect on their learning/training etc. So I suppose what I'm saying is that it can be done.

The bit I would be concerned about is having them neutered so young, they won't be fully mature. I've never had males but I would have thought if you neuter too young are you not left with almost a permanent teenager? If so in a large breed that could be a handful :(  Does it not have and effect on the bone growth etc? If so surely in a large breed that could be risky with hips etc.
If neutering the types of breed you will have has the same effect on the coat as spaying does on my breed then DON'T DO IT 'cos' boy does it mess them up and make it hard work.

I have two that are 6 months apart, the older one occasionally puts the other one in his place but it is quite a rare occurance - both are entire and the younger of the two is used at stud.  I didnt struggle too much raising them both, BUT I was very lucky in that my older boy was so easy to train, he was house trained within a week and had the run of the house at 4 months old.  However, my younger boy was a totally different, far more difficult to house train (he was cocking his leg at 10 weeks ) I would have to shut him in his cage to make him sleep otherwise he would spend all of his time swinging off the older boys ears :(  I was lucky that I could take them training on the same night as they were in different classes.  One other thing, I was in my mid twenties when these boys were pups, my mum was in her late 50's and she had them over night and for a day when the youngest was 5 months and she found them very hard work.

There are different circumstances for having dogs so close in age, my eldest was a failed show dog and I was offered another from a litter already on the ground - the expectation was that I moved the older one on to another home but I couldnt have done that, if he hadnt had been such an easy dog to live with I wouldnt have taken the younger one on.

does anyone else think this is a wind up??

they were setters
ages ranging from 11 years to a pup
bitches were mother and daughter
boys included 2 brothers, one son and
my old boy and a rescue boy
all lived in the house
only thing they did not share was feed bowls
only have father and son left now
all other have died
yes i kept 3 litter mates
hard work ,lol

No I didnt think its a wind up but I notice the OP hasnt replied to any of our comments.

Hi again

Thanks for all of your comments. I couldnt get on the internet last night to reply - apologies.

I really appreciate all of the advice and have taken it on board. Obviously we have a lot more to think about!

With regards to the neutering, this was something suggested to me by my vet, as apparently it would make the dogs have more even temperaments and would stop them fighting. She also recommended that it is done at 'puberty', however your comments have made me question whether this is necessary/correct!

I am aware that neutering will make their coats thicker/denser, which is obviously an unwanted side-effect (!) so I will look into neutering and whether it is necessary, in more detail, before making a final decision.

Our Samoyed is a typical, inquisitive puppy but he is house trained (completely within 2 weeks) and I start training classes with him next Thursday. He needs more training but we will be training the puppies separately and walking them separately a lot of the time to begin with.

I know this is going to be really hard work but I have found it so rewarding so far and we are both young and have alot of time on our hands, so hopefully we can do this but we will think about it a lot more!

Thanks for the advice - if you have any more, it would be really appreciated

More food for thought.My vet has absolutely the opposite view and is against neutering males without very good reason. All neutering does is dampen sexually motivated behaviour. Neutering is not a given and attitudes are changing. If you must neuter don't do it at six months. Imagine if we neutered 6-8 year old boys, what would that do to their development? Wait until the dog is fully grown and then you know what you have.

Until 18 months my current dog was a sex maniac and liked to strut around other boys and would have got into fisticuffs had I let it happen. Now he has calmed down and so has the humping.

There is a 14 month age gap between my crossbreed and my Newfoundland and, IMO, that was no-where near a large enough gap.  My Newfie is now almost 4 and I still think it is too soon to introduce a puppy because they still require so much time and attention!  So, much as I would love another, I will have to wait.

I don't know much about Samoyeds but it is generally recommended that Newfoundlands (or any large breed) are not neutered until mature (at least 2 years old, although 3 would be better) as it affects their mental and physical development.  I am also a little surprised that you have found a breeder who will agree to allowing you to have a puppy knowing that you already have a very young pup as it's not something the (reputable) breeders that I know would do.

Also, I don't know how much research you have done into the breed but do not accept at face value that Newfoundlands are all docile and laid back.  I learned that this is not the case the hard way.  Mine is a proper live wire; a permanent bundle of energy. She is easy to train but needs to be stimulated constantly. And from the little I do know of Samoyeds, they ARE generally an active and energetic breed.  I certainly wouldn't want both on my hands at once as puppies.  You will not be doing either of the puppies or yourself any favours.

> I know this is going to be really hard work but I have found it so rewarding so far and we are both young and have alot of time on our hands, so hopefully we can do this but we will think about it a lot more!
>
> Thanks for the advice - if you have any more, it would be really appreciated

To be honest why have two now when you can enjoy the growing up of one at a time as it takes roughly 3 years.

The other thing to think about is that you will eventually have two old dogs who are likely to die close in age too.

This http://www.naiaonline.org/pdfs/LongTermHealthEffectsOfSpayNeuterInDogs.pdf is a balanced article re neutering and it's long term effects.  The conclusions drawn are that on balance there are more health negatives than positives in neutering males.

Most vets encourage neutering, mine sends a standard letter when puppy reaches 6 months to ask me to make an appointment for puppy to be nuetered, I rarely spey or neuter unless there is a good medical reason to do so.

> Don.t have two males, neutered or not they will fight

Depends entirely on the breed.  I have never heard of problems with sammies or newfies in this respect.  Now if the OP was getting dobes then I'd heartily agree - but I don't think it's a worry in this case.

I have 2 entire male newfies   2 years between them and although in general they are a laid back breed  ,neutering at a young age is not a good idea , i agree with other posts it shouldnt be done until they are mature if at all , i could be wrong as i dont know much about sammys but the ones i have met have been quite a handful and if you get a "full of it newfie " which most are as puppies  i can see some troubled times ahead . you may also  find as they mature one wants to be top dog and if that happens  again there could be heart ache , mine as a rule dont fight they have handbags a dawn and i can control them , but i know others that have had trouble and fights, if you have never had a newfie i would leave getting one until your sammy is a bit older .

I have 8 weeks between our two and one was 16 weeks when we introduced pup no 2 no problems. Pup 1 was the cocker got early as I knew he would be the smaller dog so he got a head start. pup 2 Border Collie agressive little bleeder pinned cocker to the floor day 1 day 2 on the other foot cocker rules and now nearly two years on best pals.
Tigger is right regarding bonding, we exercise the dogs once a day apart and we (me & OH) "own"  a different dog each. Cocker is mine border is his, that was done because together they are jointly deaf to recalls or anything as pups, much more fun to play. Get the training up straight individually then they have more time together. I never segregated them and in my ignorance would leave them alone when we shopped (about two hours at most once a week) we have always given both access at all times to their crates, as tiny pups we did grate them when we shopped, but only access since then.

Since yours are the same breed you will have a different approach ours we such distint breeds they are v. individual. Collie is really well trained Cocker is definately still deaf if his nose is oterwised engaged.

Imagine the shedding- OP will need shares in hoover! 2 breeds most definately not for the houseproud
Angela

:)
So what colour will you be able to wear without looking like a walking dog bed?
Can't wear black because of the white sammy hair or any light colour because of the newfie :)

Resemble a black and white wookiee I would think LOL

I know this is going to be really hard work but I have found it so rewarding so far and we are both young and have alot of time on our hands, so hopefully we can do this but we will think about it a lot more

I have to disagree. im young, was 23 when i got my pup last year and my boyf is 27, we have no kids, 1 other pet, a cat, and plenty of time on our hands. we got a rhodesian ridgeback puppy last year and he has been such hard work! ive always owned GSDs and done obedience with them, my mum helps to run a training club. my boyfriends family have owned labs and great danes in the past, and im a veterinary nurse, so we have PLENTY of experience. however, my pup was such hard work that in the first few weeks i struggled, at times didnt like him (i know thats awful but the truth!) i take him to work with me so hes always with me, i honestly couldnt have taken on another pup, and even now my boy is a year old i would struggle. can i just say that he has turned out such a sweet boy, very loyal and faithful, very funny, and is doing very well in the showring and in obedience but that has taken a lot of hard work! if i were you i would enjoy my puppy, and in a few years take on another, dont take the chance that you may ruin them, some isses can be hard to resolve :(

Thanks again for all the advice, I have alot to consider (!)

Re. neutering - I am in no rush to get this done now!

I did leave myself a bit open to critisism by posting my original message but it has been really helpful.

I absolutely love my sammie, hes lovely, we just really wanted him to have a companion (in a doggie form!). The reason we have ended up with the 2 so close together is because we had our dream newfie pup booked a few months ago (lots of visits, loved the parents and breeder) and then we were advised to get the sammie first, to give him a head-start as he is smaller. Perhaps we were ill-advised but there were a few different sources!

We will definitely look into this more and thanksi for all your advice!

> More food for thought.My vet has absolutely the opposite view and is against neutering males without very good reason. All neutering does is dampen sexually motivated behaviour. Neutering is not a given and attitudes are changing. If you must neuter don't do it at six months. Imagine if we neutered 6-8 year old boys, what would that do to their development? Wait until the dog is fully grown and then you know what you have.
>
> Until 18 months my current dog was a sex maniac and liked to strut around other boys and would have got into fisticuffs had I let it happen. Now he has calmed down and so has the humping.

I'm very interested in what people think is the right age to have a dog neutered.Round here,the vets seem to advise neutering by 6 months at the latest,dogs and bitches.One of my neighbours has a lovely but very bouncy  7 month old boxer pup and said her vets advised to have him neutered asap as it will "calm him down".Now,my first thoughts were-if you can't cope with a lively,bouncy pup,don't get a boxer! And also,he does seem a bit young for the op.Also-is it really likely to calm him down?

Neutering early doesn't calm a dog down, it just slows the maturity down keeping them as puppies for longer. (That to me is awful, nothing beats a sensible adult!) Two of mine (a dog and a bitch) were done at 4 ½ months of age. The dog eventually started to cock his leg, mate and TIE with in season bitches aged 3, and is now just as entire male as any other male dog, despite being castrated, the bitch is hated by all the other bitches as she isn't seen as normal -she's not a puppy but not mature either as she's never had a season. She always gets picked on. Both have stayed insecure and the dog grew four inches taller than his brothers.

> I'm very interested in what people think is the right age to have a dog neutered.Round here,the vets seem to advise neutering by 6 months at the latest,dogs and bitches

To be honest with males if it aint broke don't fix it.

Unless there is an overweening need to castrate for social (you own and entire bitch or the dog will b e in regular contact with one), or health issue then leave well alone as nature intended.

With bitches it is different because with each season unlike in humans a bitches body goes through the same hormonal changes as if she were pregnant.  This can over time predispose a bitch to womb infections, which can be life threatening.  these are most likely in older unspayed bitches where having emergency surgery is less advisable than in full fitness.

So the answer in my view is males not at all, but certainly not until full physical and mental maturity which in most breeds isn't until over two years of age.

With bitches, when their breeding life is over, but after their first or second season at the earliest if not destined to be bred from.

Can I just ask......I'v got one of each which I dont want to breed so which one would be best to get done, the dog or bitch ??

My vet advised me to get the male done at 2 and he's 18 months now.

I would have your bitch neutered. Although it is a smaller op to have a dog done there are more health benefits to neutering bitches.

Simbathe samoyed,
I am pleased you are taking it all on board. We have had Samoyeds in our family for over 70years. Some people do not do there reseach.
It is awful when they end up in rescue, because the person could not cope. There coats so matted that they have to be shaved, some with sores all over there skin. A Samoyed never really matures, a 12year old can be as playfull as a puppy. To much for some people.
Vets only give a general view, they do not know the pro's and cones of all breeds. Sometimes it is necessary to get a Samoyed neutered.
If it is done just for convenience without being reseached truthfully, with a samoyed long time breeder, there can be undesirable side effects that may not be able to be managed. All Samoyeds like other breeds have different personalities. I have two entire males that live indoors with my bitches. They have a six year age gap. My Main Man is very laid back, this helps enormously. Even if they are neutered, (but not as young puppies unless there is a health problem). They still will mount one another to show dominance. Its a male thing lol.

Denese 

A relative has a neutered male Samoyed (undescended testicle, poorly bred, looks almost like a white GSD).

His coat is just awful to take care of being like Candy floss.

It got so bad it became a welfare issue as they had been brushing the top, and all the bottom had felted up with dead undercoat.

I managed to cut the coat down to an inch from the skin (rather than have a groomer shave him), and using a Matt splitter and thinning scissors teased it all apart so he looked like a puppy Sam.

After that his furnishings were regularly thinned and the areas you can't see (armpit's, middle of belly, groin etc) was kept short.

I would never advise castrating a male unless you had to for this reason alone.  A normal coat takes work, but this was something else.

I think you are right smaller dog in first bigger one later, but I really have enjoyed both of ours immensly. We had the two different as they are both dream dogs. I wanted a small dog OH a lager one result two.
I have them here in the offices and apart from having the carpets steam cleaned when both were house trained no problem. To be honest it was only because you could end up on the telephone when a pup woke and peed that we had the carpets cleaned.

I know others have different views but we have always had two dogs (about three times) and I do find if we are not around they do play together. We have two play times here about 8ish am, a round the block walk which I do at 12 noon and I love to get out, 4:30pm they decide its almost home time and if OH shuts his computer off thats it.

I have one neutered at 6 months undescended testicles (Border Collie OH's) one is still complete and I see no reason to have him done unless health or social issues come up - all our other dogs in the past have not been done. I do not think you were illadvised, its just some one elses point of view surley.

Go with what you think.

Hi Denese

I am not going to get him neutered now unless for health reasons later on. You think you can trust a vets judgement!! That will teach me...

I have seen a lot of pics of rescue Samoyeds and its so sad, especially the ones who have to be shaved - I promise you that I was aware of the grooming commitments when I got Simba, I just absolutely love Samoyeds and am happy to put in the time to keep him feeling comfortable/looking gorgeous! (I'll have to change my profile pic soon! =o) Although I have to say, grooming at his age now is really time-consuming as he thinks the brush is a toy!!

I think Simba is showing the signs of being quite an energetic dog already and v playful but that is what I wanted!

What do you feed your Sams? I want to change his food to Arden Grange,Burns or Naturediet as I think they would be better for him. He is currently on Pedigree puppy but I want a healthier food with no additives etc...

Thanks

Claire

They still will mount one another to show dominance. Its a male thing lol

its also a girl thing- my bitches do this too!

Vets really ought to advise on the cons as well as pros of neutering.I've lost count of the number of cockers who as puppies have come in for grooming with nice silky coats then come back in looking like woolly mammoths and the owners can't understand why the coats have grown like that after neutering.
Of course vets could argue that a neutered dog(or bitch) isn't going to contribute to the huge unwanted dog problem-but then neither is a responsibly owned entire dog.
Out of interest-how would a shaved samoyed's coat grow back? I've never done it(although I've had several matted samoyeds in for grooming).I'd be too worried the coat would be ruined and grow back like straw-I'd rather turn the dog away and let someone else do it!

Hi Claire,

You are quite right to hold fire on the neutering. Six months is far too young, much better to let him mature and then see if it's necessary.

One of our Dogues was neutered at 18 months by the Rescue people we got him from. As he was mature it didn't affect his growth or muscular development but he grows a thick woolly coat like a giant teddy, and he only has to look at a bowl of food to put on weight. We feed him literally half what we feed our entire male (aged three). Having said that the two boys are the very best of friends and curl up together on the sofa like a couple of bookends. We also have two entire bitches and no fights.

We feed raw, tripe, ox heart, lamb, chicken wings with small amounts of liquidised veggies, eggs and a daily dollop of oil. All the Dogues do very well on a raw diet.

Hope all goes well with you and your boy(s).

Hi,
Well, I feed my pups on fish with complete, tuna sardines, pilchards, Asda's smart price is very cheap this gives them all the goodnes they need for there coat, bones and teeth. Sammys can get loose motion if the complete does not suit them. My older sams just love the bakers complete aren't very keen on the rest, they have a little fish or dog meat with it, the pups were started on Beta puppy,Now I feed them Eukanuba puppy food with fish or a little meat. I only feed cooked meat. As mine live in the home and they mix with young children and babies.
My Grandfather and Father used to say you should never feed a Samoyed what you would not eat yourself. I have to admit my parents used to feed our sams meat from the butchers and cook it thereselves so they knew what was in it. When I married and had my own Sammy, when I had him overalled ,the vet said what way good enough for my young children was good enough for my sammie. He used to have dinners with us loved jelly and evap milk, also cooked meat, always had his mr whippy icecream with the children, just like mom and dads sammies did. They never had a days illness never had to attend a vet for 13yrs, when they went of there legs and were p.t.s. My mainman loves ginger biscuites dunked in tea. Samoyeds are very much like having another child in the home. They have the calcium bones full of meat to teeth on, that keeps there teeth lovely clean and white. We feed our dogs now with convience food, we all eat it ourselves. Not Good really but! it is now our way off life.

Denese

Maybe I am just a cynic, but has no one thought that the vets income would drastically reduce if they did not manage to persuade puppy ownwers that their puppy Must be neutered? The habit of neutering young dogs when the testes have not descended at 6 months is questionable too, some dogs are late developers and they drop much later. While I think that the pet insurance is great, some vets do seem to ask about your insurance almost before they get yours or your dogs name, then 'hey ho' you need to neuter because this or that has not happened, or may happen. I have been involved with dogs and showing for 30yrs and have been to several different vets due to moving, I have noticed only over the last 7/8 yrs that when I took a 12 week pup for vaccinations they wanted to know when I intended to neuter it.
Re having two or more young pup together, have you thought how the dogs will have to share your time and very likely you cannot give the same attention to each as you would to just one dog therefore it is the puppy that loses out regardless of how you feel.

I wouldn't say vets revenue would go down that much if they stopped suggested neutering, there may be a lot more misalliance injections needed (Not everyone is sensible!) and lots of pregnancy related appointments i would imagine. Not everyone is as sensible and dog savvy as we are! As insurance doesn't cover neutering i can't see why the vets would ask about it before they talk about neutering but its always wise to ask abot insurance before any other non-routine treatment as this may well affect what treatment can be done.

> there may be a lot more misalliance injections needed (Not everyone is sensible!)

What we need is education not surgery, castration & spaying should not be used as contraception. They are not minor operation they are invasive surgery & frequently lead to further health problems if carried out too early. I'm currently trying to persuade a club member not to castrate her young GSD(he's not yet 18 months old & still growing)yet. Being a larger breed the long bones are affected by early castration in most cases. Another member had there 9 month old GSD castrated, because he had a retained testicle & to"calm him down"needless to say he hasn't calmed down & as he is already oversized for his age, I hate to think how he will end up.

Vets do advise neutering at 6 months, they did when I took both Rjj & Wukee because they did not know me & the younger vets have this instilled into them at Vet School(both in the UK & abroad) the older more experienced vets at the practice do not advise re castration/spaying until the dog is fully grown. I did ask the partners in the group about the younger vets & they did say they would remind them that it should be mentioned, but as an option when the dog is past puberty. My friend, Carol, who is one of the partners told me it is one of the first things taught to students about dogs, i.e. if the dog isn't going to be used for breeding(& who can tell at 8 weeks old)then it should be neutered asap. She had seen a good few ex RSPCA dogs, who are castrated at 8 weeks & spayed at 10 weeks in this area, with health problems linked to their early neutering & when she was in conversation with the local branch, was told"It stops them breeding"She was appalled, they obviously don't vet the homes properly & opt for neutering as contraception instead of getting the dogs a forever suitable home !