Hi, Ok, puppies here and settled with mum.
the first puppy born was an ounze smaller than the others. It fed when it first came out quite aggressivly. Since then it seems to lick at the nipple or skin and i havent seen it latch on at all. It is so small in comparison.

Naughty i know i have given it some formula which it had some and sucked. It was just for peace of mind really. It is not crying out just warm and sleepy like the rest. I know it isnt feeding.

I only have 4 now and really couldnt bear to lose another so any advice needed even if it means i have to feed it evry two hours!!!

so you have any nutridrops?

no what are nutridrops, how will it help???? Please tell more!

Hi ya, try not to worry, if puppy fed straight away then she'll have taken in some goodness and with the extra top up feed she probably has had enough milk for a while, it was a long long whelping so it makes puppies tired to, they should all be trying to feed more vigourously later on/tomorrow.

I forgot to say its the puppies that cry and cry continously like a seagull sound are more of a worry, warm sleepy quiet just born puppies are doing ok.

http://www.hyperdrug.co.uk/Veterinary-Nutridrops-30ml/productinfo/9020777/

Give them time. They've all been through an exhausting experience. My litters have never fed at all (the bitches have never stayed still long enough) until the whelping is over, and of course for the first day or two they're only getting a little colostrum (vital!) until the real milk comes in. Relax - let everything calm down. If the pup's warm and relaxed that's a very good sign that all's well. Don't hand feed if you can possibly avoid it - the pup needs the colostrum from mum far more than formula.

Hi, first, have you checked for cleft pallette - this causes pups not to be able to latch on.  IF it is a cleft then depends on degree wether pup can be fed successfully or not.  However, presuming this is not the case, first try and encourage the pup to feed from Mum, put it on seperately so you can concentrate just on this pup, and encourage sucking by gently stroking/tickling just under it's chin.  This stimulates sucking reflex.  If pup eventually latches on and feeds, you will jsut have to closely monitor it at each feed. Chin tickling can be done several times thorugh feed to keep the sucking going strongly.  If the pup simply refuses ot feed form Mum, but is happy to feed from a bottle, then I just go ahead and bottle feed, sometimes a very small pup does not get the hang of Mum feeds, but is happy to have a bottle, no idea why - possilby a lot less hard work?  What have you fed as formula, and what weight are the pups?

ok ok, loud and clear! Take a chill pill!

Mum just back from csection with the chunkiest son. She has toileted each one and is now sleeping with them all curled around her. A couple of the big ones are feeding but the two smaller ones are just sleeping.

I will see what the night brings and look at things tomorrow. Dont think it helps that mum smells of the vets! Aneasthetic. All quiet on the western front.

So, havent slept since the day before yesterday and now have a mum who has had surgery and needs watching over in case she stands on the babies! Will i ever see the inside of my eyes again.

Strangely still have a lot of adrenalin.

You're exhausted too, and so naturally you're panicking. I've done exactly the same when my last litter was 5 days late. Newborns are really incredibly robust and can easily tolerate far more than we imagine.

Have you got anyone there who can sit up and puppy-watch while you get a couple of hours of sleep?

Thanks Gwen,

I have checked for cleft pallette, cant see a problem, is it obvious? she did latch on straight away when born. Now she licks and nuzzles but doesnt open her mouth wide enough. The others suck your finger if you touch their chin, she doesnt. I have a 4oz (the one not feeding) a 5oz a 5.5oz and a 6oz.

She is not crying out and looks well just sleepy. i will see how she goes in the morning. The milk is Petlife Whelpy. I have lactol but not keen on it.

Any more advice gratefully received

hi,

not really, my husband has helped all day but wont involve himself in all this, it really isnt his thing so night shifts, all mine!

Sounds like my OH, he run upstairs and left me to it when it all got to much for him lol, anyway it sounds like the pups doing ok for now so you should try and get some sleep, you will hear their every noise believe me so dont worry you will sleep through anything you wont, you need to recharge your batteries so you can do some serious puppy watching tomorrow :-)

OK, whilst it is very important to get the colostrum into her, at 4 oz you can't afford to lose time, I am afraid,  toy breeds are very different from larger, more robust pups, and I find that the success rate if  they fall below 4 oz is greatly reduced.  It is very important to stay on top of the situation, as at this sort of size dehydration can happen very quickly.  Try to get the nipple into her mouth, gently squeeze Mum and tickle under her chin.  IF you simply can't get her to feed then a bottle is the only answer.  Leaving her to find her own way through the night is not an option, as by tomorrow morning she could have missed 5 feeds.  Whelpi is fine, although I prefer my own made mixture which is very simple, a small can of carnation milk, equal quantity of boiiled, cooled water, and 1 egg yolk (no white at all)  mixed together, and fed a blood temp.  At this size about 5 ml per feed is fine, although if she will take more great.  Be very careful that you keep the bottle teat over her tongue.  I often take have to bottle feed, but also manage to "squeeze feed" a couple of small feeds too.  Good luck.

> I have a 4oz (the one not feeding)

Sounds like a viable weight to me, so try not to worry to much.  I had a bitch give birth to one stillborn today (toy breed.)  With a singleton you always expect it to be big, but this was tiny, poor little mite.  Mum has milk and colostrum if you get really stuck, as I'm not too far away from you.  Jean

Obviously posted at the same time as Gwen, if she is worried at weight then go with her experience (the 4oz may be ok for my breed.)  Gwen knows her stuff.  I have to say that I'm a big believer in evaporated milk too, we always used to use it back in the 70's very successfully.  Again, if you get stuck let me know as I'm not far away.

Poor you, can your Breeder mentor not help at all??

Going on to feed wee ones...what you can try is expressing a little milk near the pups mouth when she awakes and seems interested in having a nuzzle up to Mum...this can stimulate them too, the smell and if you can get a drop or two in her mouth, the taste! If she hasn't fed for at least 3-4 hours I would intervene with formula, or as suggested the carnation diluted down. Best of luck, hope everything goes ok. Excellent advice given by Gwen and Jean, as per usual!

So sorry to hear this Jean, very sad and disappointing...

>

> I have checked for cleft pallette, cant see a problem, is it obvious?

Sorry, forgot to reply to this bit.  It is much easier to see on Fawns than blacks.  The minor ones are hardest to spot, as they can appear as just a fine black line along the roof of the mouth.  A very wide cleft is easy to see, you can't miss it.  A tiny torch is a great help.

Sorry, new on this site, i take it you have bred this breed for a long while Gwen? It really is fascinating reading your advice.

Gwen, you are a top woman! I have just taken your advice and now have a whelping box full of silent pups!
I took my 4oz pup out and gave it a bottle to suck on. The other pups were fed and asleep so brought mum in front of the whelp box on vet bed to lie down. I literally pulled the bottle out of the pups mouth and tickled her chin at the same time and she latched onto mum.

Success she has been quietly feeding for ten whole mins. Mum has just called time and she is now with her litter mates sound asleep and a little stronger. i will do this each time she cries till she gets it and seperate her for feeding as the others really are chunkier!

This forum wins the day again, and for now, night night x

So glad to hear this!  It sometimes jsut takes the right sort of persuasion.  (Breed edited) puppies can be amazingly stubborn, even as new borns.  Good luck,  hope top hear about lots of weight gain tomorrow.

> i take it you have bred this breed for a long while Gwen?

Hello, well it depends on what you consider a long while.  I have a fair amount of experience with them, and especially with difficult pups.  Our oldest homebred pug will be 8 this year, so for almost 8 years,  which means there is still lots for me to learn about the breed. but Have been breeding American Cockers for 19 years, so have gained quite a lot of puppy experience along the way with them.

Gwen,

you are a star :)

Glad all is well with mum and babes, judging by the time of your post your eyes must have been out on stalks from lack of sleep, I do hope you managed to get a few hours in.

The other thread is now locked but I wanted to congratulate you on your healthy litter.
CONGRATULATIONS! :)
I'm so glad things worked out in the end.
I hope the little girl makes good progress.
x

Good morning!

Well another night over. These puppies are teaching me a lot. They are silent unless they need fed or are lost! simple.

The smallest one i put on every two hours when she cried. She still wouldnt latch on without sucking the bottle first but i am sure she will get the hang of it.

I just woke up so think i may have got around 3 hours sleep. But the pups were all on mum feeding warm and happy. The smallest one wasnt on but wasnt crying so think she may have fed too.

Mum is just amazing. She found it tough last night after the section as she was walking sideways and lying on her nipples. This morning she has completely got stuck in. lying stretched out for them. Leaving the whelping box for seconds,just eaten some food but really attentive.

she has come out of this underweight and gaunt looking so it is operation feed her up. Iit wont be long till she is scoffing again. You have all been fab. Keep the advice coming.

I'm so pleased to hear you got a little sleep :-)  it is a most amazing sight to see mum nestling and caring for her babes, its something you never get blas'e about, I am so envious you have gorgeous babies to coo over lol, all sounds like its going as it should :-)

Oh and re: the feeding up, I let my mums eat as much as they want with no limts, babies take a lot out of mums so they need all that energy replaced with lots of good food, I'm sure she will soon be eating for England :-)

just done the weigh ins. Is it normal for them to remain the same weight today as birth day?

My little one has lost and is now 3.5oz but she is my project. As soon as she cries i get her on mum and she is feeding now and sleeping with the others.

The whelping box is silent for the moment! Mum is covered in blood so will get her washed up later but for now she is catching up on her sleep.

One dilemma. I wanted to keep an apricot boy and i had a booking for 1 boy. the lady who has booked has been calling me for weeks, emailing, named him and sooo excited. Now i only have 1 boy!!! My husband says give him up. I have avoided calling her but know she will call me today....... I could keep a bitch but never a fan of two bitches together.

Congratulations from me too!
Sorry about the one you lost that's sad, but a lovely litter size now.
I am another believer in the nutridrops, we had some which we gave to the littlest pups before they fed as it seemed to give them energy. They all did really well even the really small one which we kept (and she is bigger than some of her siblings now!)
Take care x x

Congratulations,sorry you lost one little one.Now do you keep a boy...............

It's your litter - you bred because you wanted a pup, you get first pick.  However, keeping entire dogs and bitches together can be a real pain.  Perhaps some breed experts can give you some advice on keeping Pug bitches together?

Firstly congratulations on your litter!

Secondly, I'd say if you wanted to keep a boy then you should keep the one and only. Although the lady has booked a boy she should understand the situation. Could you not offer her a bitch? This is what happens with breeding, you can bet your life if you've got people booking dogs you'll have a litter of bitches and vice versa (s**s law!).

Congratulations sounds as though it was a little touch and go, but you have a lovely litter, sorry about the one that you lost, and so pleased you have Gwen for advice.

We all have that cross to bare of never knowing what sex our pups will be, two bitches together will be fine with a good age gap, so not necessarily a problem for you, however, to be honest if you really want a boy then you will just need to explain that there was only one and you bred the litter to get a boy for yourself, we all have to do these things on occassion, let them know a.s.a.p if you decide you really want the boy, it is just one of those things, you may well have had a litter with no males at all, as breeder you get first pick, you go through the hard work so of course you get the pup you want. :-)

These people will find another breeder and get their male, you may even be able to recommend someone to ease the blow for them.

Well done you, sorry I am late with the best wishes just been saying goodbye to my little ones and it takes it out of you.  Enjoy your babies those weeks go so soon and then they are off to their new homes :-)

>Sorry about the one you lost that's sad, but a lovely litter size now.

On the cover of one of my breeding books is a picture of a rather fed-up looking (Breed edited) bitch with 10 puppies!

I think you should keep the boy too, afterall that is part of why we breed isn't it?

Jeangenie, we had 12 and my bitch was certainly fed up!

> we had 12 and my bitch was certainly fed up!

Was that a toy breed?

Glad things are settling down ,as for boy puppy he`s yours you get first pick.Keeping entire male with a bitch is very difficult but i`m sure you`ll do the right thing in the end.As for bitches living together I have 3 and have no problems.

So pleased the babies are doing ok,

Did your lady know she was second in line for boy?
Also with my last puppy, (I was wanting a bitch), I knew the breeder was going to advise me on the puppy I should have from the long awaited litter.
I would reckon that lady in question will be understanding.

Karen :)

I'm with everyone, the litter is yours to pick from first, if he looks like he will be a nice pup then you keep him, yes the lady might be dissapointed but she will have to understand and have a little girl instead or you could refer her on to another breeder that may be able to help her.

DESTINY! Just called the lady in question and explained she had only one boy and he was apricot and i could instantly tell she was disapointed. I asked her was the colour more important than the sex and she said yes. She has booked a fawn girl! She has only ever owned bitches before any way.

so looks like handsome is mine!

One question. I have more people than pups. Should i invite them all to view at 4 weeks and let them know we dont have enough to go around or get commitment now? They are all vetted and keen. I do have my mentor to refer them to but at which stage do people let you down, should i get deposits and viewings before i say to people sorry havent got one for you?

P.S my little one is feeding every two hours. The issue is mums nipples are too big for her mouth! Only the back two with help she can deal with but she just fed for 12 minutes and is now sleeping soundly - i think she will stack it on now (pray for her!!!) x

Good to hear the little girl is keen to feed with help :-)

Personally I think as you have already met and vetted the possible owners then I would pick the best ones for your babies and put the others onto another breeder to go on their waiting list, there is no point to letting people see the pups and then be terribly dissapointed they cant have one.

> .As for bitches living together I have 3 and have no problems.

I have had up to five living together with at least two year age gaps.

Congratulations on your litter :-) I just wanted to say that I wouldn't consider making a firm decision on any pup just now if you want to show it? I don't know about your breed but mine you choose at 6 weeks old -that's when they most resemble the adults they grow into.

With regard to bitches living together that can be very breed specific so perhaps Gwen could advise? For instance hounds generally get along, same with gundogs but some terriers and working breeds can have same sex problems.

I would choose your 3 best owners and let the others know that unless there is a cancellation there won't be a pup for them. I think it's unfair to keep them hanging on when there aren't enough pups to go round.

> I would choose your 3 best owners and let the others know that unless there is a cancellation there won't be a pup for them. I think it's unfair to keep them hanging on when there aren't enough pups to go round

I agree.  For this reason I do ask for a small deposit £50 to be able to say all pups spoken for, otherwise pups still available to suitable homes.  I don't believe a deposit of this size would make someone have a pup they didn't really want in the end (after all they are likely to use that much in fuel if they have a way to travel), but should stop people completely wasting your time and offset re-advertising costs etc if they should.

thanks for that. I have just been offerd a deposit to secure a pup. I said not till 4 weeks but i am happy with the people i have so will go ahead and refer the others to my mentor who has the same bloodline.

My little one has put on .5 oz today already! She even found the nipple herself this time but can only use the back two...... she is curling into a ball a lot like she has belly ache but not crying at all. is that normal????

Sorry every post a question!!!

Congratulations :)

Fingers crossed for the little girl :)