one of my friends at work is very partial to white gsd'd and asked me where the best place to get one would be. knowing they are non standard and that no breeder would deliberately try to breed them i suggested rescue. but do they crop up in litters?

Not any more IMHO back in the 1950s & 1960s there were lots of "white"s born in standard to standard colour breedings, however in the late 1960s One Yvonne Daunton started breed breeding white to white & white to white carrying standard colours. All her dogs go back to this bitch whose grandson was an epileptic & who is behind many many epileptic GSDs &"white"GSDs around today.

The reason that they no longer crop up in standard to standard colour litters is because responsible breeders did not breed from them & also those who use German bloodlines in their breeding program do not get "whites"either. I don't know about those who prefer the English type, but I haven't seen many"whites"registered in the BRS from standard to standard colour parents, they usually have at least one "white"parent & usually they are both"whites"& no matter what anyone says "white" to "white" litters are bred for money as are all the non standard litters

Hi, On another website advertising puppies for sale there are litters available. If you want I can tell you where but please send me a message. Cheers

can give you details of someone in suffolk, not sure if that area is any good for your friend, they have puppies now

Have met quite a few, does anyone else find there are 2 sorts - 'white' GSDs and GSDs which happen to be white, most of the former seem to be quite highly strung and have a bark that turns v high pitched, almost hysterical when they get wound up, while the 2nd type are 'normal' shepherds that have a white/cream coat?
Chris

> don't know about those who prefer the English type, but I haven't seen many"whites"registered in the BRS from standard to standard colour parents, they usually have at least one "white"parent & usually they are both"whites"& no matter what anyone says "white" to "white" litters are bred for money as are all the non standard litters

i didn't think so. i said i wasn't sure but i'd ask.

is the white non standard because of the prevelence of epilepsy or because of a coat texture fault etc?

that depends what kind of website? i have become very cautious in the choosing of pups since my mum and dad chose my boy from what has turned out not to be what i'd class as a reputable breeder.

probably to far for him to travel i think, and i think he was asking for the future rather than now.

were they deliberately bred? my question was really to find out if they did still crop up in good lined litters which mm, who is an authority on gsd's, says not?

I have heard that the whites are highly strung and a bit tempremental.When we went to look at ours which was being rehomed after a marriage break up (allegedly )at 4 months she was absolutely delghtful and we decided to bring her home,the woman said in passing one of the parents was white and the other black and tan ,alarm bells started ringing,but we bought her home and I thought because she was rather a handful was I going to regret this (the white gene), she is a pleasure to have around,she settled well once I changed her food .Went to socialising and obedience classes .Her colouring black and tan ,but the tan is more of the champagne colour.

> is the white non standard because of the prevelence of epilepsy or because of a coat texture fault etc?

Nope it's because German sheep breeds do not respond to white dogs(bearing in mind they are German Shepherd Dogs), I've seen it my self in a demonstration in Germany with a predominately white BC, which worked cattle OK but had real problems with the sheep breeds. Also(according to a Human German Shepherd)the dog is always visible to the human as it works the sheep. unlike other white stock working breeds, which are flock guards rather than herders, GSDs are expected to "shepherd the flock"ie keep the sheep in a designated area(behind a line walked by the Human Shepherd)& also to keep the flock in check whilst being moved.

The long coat is non standard because of the lack of water proof under coat.

> were they deliberately bred?

If it is more than one  or two puppies in a little than yes they will have one parent who is"white"

Look at the health tests if the parents are not hip & elbow scored(the elbows should be 0 or 1 & no higher)& the male haemophilia tested, then don't even bother enquiring.

Don't touch non KC registered either as you cannot check the health tests

Don't forget the health tests can be viewed on the KC site for KC registered dogs-only the registered name is needed

> while the 2nd type are 'normal' shepherds that have a white/cream coat?

Having met a good number they all fall into one type "non standard". Very very very few are born in litters bred from two corrected coloured dogs. There are very few that are truly white with black pigment, most sadly have long weak muzzles with weak heads, because the dogs behind them have not been bred to fit the breed standard. The temperament is also because they have not been bred from typical GSDs.

TBH anyone who deliberately breeds from GSDs that are not bred to improve the breed(ie with glaring faults like long coats, "whites"/blue/panda etc etc etc) they as I have previously written they are bred for money.

Just found this photo of a "white" to "white" bred"stud"

Light eyes & poor pigmentation !

Thanks Moonmaiden, I knew about the Vondaun line, but I didnt know it carried epilepsy. Our first litter was from breed standard parents and had 2 whites, but we had Vondaun/Duncastle in the line. The whites were swamped with Vondaun dogs when she was breeding.

The breed is recognised by the FCI as the White Swiss Shepherd. You can find some breeders on Champdogs here http://www.champdogs.co.uk/guided/all_white-swiss-shepherd-dog_breeders.html but they are not in the UK :(

> Nope it's because German sheep breeds do not respond to white dogs(bearing in mind they are German Shepherd Dogs), I've seen it my self in a demonstration in Germany with a predominately white BC, which worked cattle OK but had real problems with the sheep breeds.

really? thats so interesting, i wonder why?

thats very helpful mm, thanks. i'll pass that on to my friend.

They are from white GSDs but now look like white BSDs in shape & I have a friend who has one in The Netherlands & she does Obedience with him(the British type not FCI). She isn't the bravest of dogs apparently, but has done well in Obedience with her

> really? thats so interesting, i wonder why?

The workings of a ewes mind are a mystery even to shepherds. I do know that they do not "flock"without a strong willed dogs & they like British breeds do not "bond"with flock guards like other continental breeds

LOL

> The whites were swamped with Vondaun dogs when she was breeding.

She used to register at least 10 litters every quarter & usually a lot more. Way too many for the bitches & puppies to receive the right care

This thread has been absolutely fascinating!

I don't know much about GSD full stop but whilst at the European Show was asked to hold 2 for a lady who was competing. They were much nicer than any I have seen in the UK and seemed to act like normal dogs. Quite typey and reasonably relaxed. So I suppose there mus be some good ones out there-trick is finding them!
Jeff.

They weren't white GSDs but White Swiss Shepherds They were carefully selected from healthy dogs with good temperaments, the shape however is no longer close to the GSD. There are no "good"breeders of white GSDs as they breed only for the coat colour without any thought to the breed standard & original purpose of the breed.

Anyone who breeds simply for the colour of the dog(& failing miserably as I have never seen an actual white GSD with correct eye & pigment colour that has been fully health tested & that actually resembles the breed standard)they lose sight of the overall dog & are so blind to the faults they are breeding into their dogs

> The workings of a ewes mind are a mystery even to shepherds

lol, i don't know why but i found that hilarious. i think its pretty much anything with sheep i find funny though...something about their faces :)

> they like British breeds do not "bond"with flock guards like other continental breeds
>

as in they won't accept a flock guard like a Kommondor or a Kangal? i wonder why... granitecity girls right, this is so interesting

> They weren't white GSDs but White Swiss Shepherds They were carefully selected from healthy dogs with good temperaments, the shape however is no longer close to the GSD

so perhaps, if he (my friend) is determined i should steer him in that direction- he is not a dog enthusiast to the level of examining conformation differences between breeds, i believe the attraction to a white gsd is due to a former pet.

i did show him a sammy to though and he seemed quite taken with it :)

>> as in they won't accept a flock guard like a Kommondor or a Kangal?

Probably the way they are kept over 1,000s of years. British breeds historically were free roaming(especially the hill breeds)the wolf has long gone & the need for a dog to guard the sheep disappeared with it & in Germany like Holland the sheep are kept in restricted pasture(& now in lowland UK)to a dog's job has changed. The flock guards do not work the sheep they protect them & for this to be successful the sheep that flock together have been chosen over the years to make guarding easier. The countries with flock guards also have sheepdogs that work the sheep.

The behaviour patterns of sheep is fascinating & the only thing that is consist through out all sheep is their willingness to keel over & die for no reason whatsoever. ;-)

Thanks MM, every day is a school day :-) They looked to my uneducated GSD eyes GSD like but I did not have a critical look at them too busy with the Budvar!
Breeding for colour alone is a particualr hobby horse of mine and I wish more people realise how much damage it can do.

Jeff.

> The countries with flock guards also have sheepdogs that work the sheep.
>

yes, i love how the kommodor and puli look like a matching set :)

> The behaviour patterns of sheep is fascinating & the only thing that is consist through out all sheep is their willingness to keel over & die for no reason whatsoever. ;-)

lol, well who knew. you learn something new as they say :)

I just LOVE random factual conversations like this.

And sheep stories, oh the great British sheep, how did they survive as a species for so long?  MM is right with the whole happy to keel over and die at the slightest thing.  I have heard many stories of folk having to go out to the field and pop their bellies to stop them dieing when they get stuck on their backs.  Shaun the Sheep is one of my all time favourite characters :-) But he is a very smart sheep - must actually be a poodle in disguise.

There is longhaired GSD club that will have details on well bred litters including white pups. We've always had the longhaired GSD's and back in the 80's we had an all black longhaired male GSD who's dad was white...fantastic temperament, sound absolutely no hang ups and all his pups turned out the same.  We now have a Blue & Gold GSD and a Blue sable which some people frown upon but they are no different than any others and the blue's do crop up in litters but many breeders still cull them at birth.

Just be aware that many white GSD's are nervy and unsound - I have come across many with unsound temperaments.

The Aberdeen white GSD's I have seen have been aggressive - but it's more than likely the same people breeding them up here.

My dad bought a 'Vondaun' German Shepherd as a family pet in the 1970's. I can not remember the dogs pedigree name now, but my dad was told the dog was 8 weeks old and when the papers came through it turned out he was 12 weeks. The poor dog had epilepsy and a real problem with his 'senses' especially in the dark. He also had a very unpredictable temperament. Some years later (mid 1980's I think) her kennel was exposed in Dog World as breeding 42 litters a year in unsatisfactory conditions. Don't remember the rest of the details.

I used to rescue GSDs a long time ago, and one was a white. She was short hair from two white long hair. She was only a pup when I took her in. I kept her till over a year and found her to be very hyper and disobedient, not the typical GSDs I was used to. The only home I found suitable was a farm were she went to be a guard dog and was very happy. But she would not have been any good as a family pet. As I only ever rescued the one white, I don't know if she was typical of a white or just a full on character, of all the GSDs I took in the most laid back and well behaved was an all black. But then again I don't now if that had anything to do with the colour

sorry but i disagree with many of your posts on here- just because a gsd without the correct coat length or colour is bred from does not mean that they are purely bred-so what if a breeder doesnt choose to breed to the standard when it comes to coat colour and length? my white boy is bred to the breed standard bar his coat. it is a FACT that white gsds are in no way of different temperament than there standard coat equivalents-it is an old wives tale and is not true-like any dog it depends on how they are raised-yes there are breeders of white gsds who do it just for money-as there are standard coat gsds and the same for many other breeds. my boy was from health tested parents who both won numerously under walcss. they make fabulous pets- no different to normal gsds and it is also proven that white colouring and epilepsy have any link

Colours and temperament are well documented - chestnut mares for one :-)  But it does depend on the parent animal - if breeders are only breeding for a specific colour and not taking into account any parent behaviour, then it is perfectly reasonable to assume that many questionable traits have through the "vetting" procedure.

yes wellnot every breeder of white gsds does it for money-some do it to improve the white side of the breed-there is nothing wrong with that-i just dont like the way people tar everyone with the same brush

Well I was asked to judge at this year's WALCSS show, but as it would be to judge the dogs against the GSD breed standard there would be no dogs i could honestly place so I had to decline.

Sorry to disillusion you, but because whites are solely bred for the colour of their coats & not their conformation(ie such that they could do the job they were bred for-shepherding German Breeds of sheep)the fail dramatically because German sheep do not respond to white dogs. The link I posted is typical of white GSD studs, they do not have the correct head properties(muzzle too long & weak-so they would be unable to correctly hold & force a sheep back to the designated grazing area, the strength of the muzzle is crucial in not damaging the sheep)). Why breed white to white to prove that they are no different to correctly coloured GSDs ? Nothing is further from the point.

Being involving with GSD rescue for long, I have seen so many whites that have been dumped when the novelty has warn off. whites & long coats greatly out number the dogs of correct colour & coat that are handed over to our rescue. Well bred dogs rarely end up in rescue & are always taken back by their breeders. So many white GSD breeders end their interest in their products as soon as the money hits their hand.

I had a quick look at a certain well known puppy sales site. None of the multitude of white GSDs looks like a working GSD should, they are mostly longcoats(a problem for the dog itself because of the lack of good undercoat).

A GSD's temperament should be 150% sound, they should have very steady nerves & be biddable so that they are easily trained. The dogs that I have seen are far from sound in temperament or character.

Epilepsy is a fact of life when the dogs I put the links up for are in the pedigree. Near to me is a white GSD breeder, whose breeding plans went awry as the two bitches she had for breeding both had epilepsy & both died before they could have the 6 or more litters their breeder expects to get from each dog. The older bitch had two or three litters before dying in status epilepticus just after being mating & her daughter died in a fit the week she was due to be mated also in status epilepticus. All her dogs go back directly the Daunton's bloodlines the younger bitch having no less than 30 lines to Quadrille.

Do you know what is behind your dog off the pedigree where people think the influence of the affected dogs disappeared to

you are not disillusioning me as to the problems that you can get with ANY gsds whether white or not-my boy came from totally sound, health tested parents with no known trace of epilepsy in the last 4 generations and only one in the fifth. he was not bred purely for coat colour- his father was a standard coat that is successful in schutzhund he obviously carried the white gene which resulted in a litter 80% white (dam was white) this was deemed necessary to continue to improve the standard of white gsds, there are some quality whites out there, one of which is my boy- and as for the head-this is a known flaw in the white gsd and is being bred away from by responsible breeders

My best friend has a white GSD and he is lovely...but does seem very hyper compared to her other 2 normal GSDs - he gets really, REALLY excited when people come to visit and barks in a very high pitched way - not like other GSDs I have heard barking.

With the white GSD's/sheep thing - he definitely didn't respond to sheep very well and my friend was distraught when she found out that he had scaled their fence and got into a field with sheep and actually killed one :-(

They bought him on a whim (fell for the cute puppy - when she told me she'd got him, her first words to me were "Don't be cross with me BUT...") he is a lovely lovely boy but I think given the choice I would rather have a 'normal' GSD myself.

If your dog's parents have one epileptic behind them, that parent should not be bred from QED. There is no such thing as a quality white-white is a non standard colour & should not be bred for QED. Do you know what is off the pedigree is Ingosohn of Errol or Avon Prince of Alumvale there ? If theyr are then you have got another link to epilepsy behind your dog

QWERTY
this is a known flaw in the white gsd and is being bred away from by responsible breeders
responsible breeders do not breed whites full stop so your statment means zilch

firstly alice i think any gsd not used to sheep may have the capacity to kill a sheep regardless of colour.

actually there are responsible breeders in the white gsd world- that breed whites- but they dont do it to the cost of the health of the dogs. and no they arent the lines in my dog pedigree and as for the dog with epilepsy-obviously the breeders would not have bred if they knew he had epilepsy but this did not materialize until later in the dogs life.

A responsible breeder does not breed against the breed standard [whites livers etc and many other colours not in standard] it does not matter if they do all the health checks; they are not breeding for the betterment of the breed. A responsible breeder would have researched the lines and discovered there was epilepsy in the lines, and not bred from that dog. There are to many people playing at the dog breeding game and it is people like you with your non standard gsd buying these dogs that encourage and defend these so called breeders to destroy many breeds.

A freind of mine has an Epileptic  white long coat.  He once went into a continuous fit and had to be hospitalised for several days and was lucky to survive.  He is now on permanent anti fitting medication (which of course is not without long term side effects to teh organs).

> firstly alice i think any gsd not used to sheep may have the capacity to kill a sheep regardless of colour.

i'm not a pastoral person at all but to my mind i would be concerned about any pastoral breed that would attack what its ment to herd, just as i'd be concerned of a guard breed that was timid. but if thats a false concern someone enlighten me please :)

this has been an really interesting thread, i will pass the url to my friend so he can read everyones views and experiences.

>i would be concerned about any pastoral breed that would attack what its ment to herd

When you remember that herding is only a modified form of hunting it's easy to imagine an individual from a pastoral breed not having the final modification (the 'not attacking bit!) of the instinct, especially if it's been bred for colour, not working ability. It's no more surprising than a bad-tempered individual of a toy or companion breed.

hello

i read this topic with interest and these are my opinions,  i started showing, training and breeding gsd's 25 years ago, they were black and tan, and at the time i was completely against whites.  over the next few years i had servere problems with haemophillia.  i also know of people who had dwaffs in their litters and hips that were 106 in total (all from black and tan), some temprements were shot to bits, nervious, windy or aggressive,  lots of dogs had missing teeth or soft ears,  and then there was auto immune disease and pancriatic dificency, (still all black and tans).  i am NOT by any means saying that ALL black and tans have all these problems but that there are a lot of problems that need to be corrected as i know that a lot of these faults still exsist.
as for whites my best friend has got whites and has had for over 25 years and in that time i have decided you should'nt judge a book by its cover ( or coat colour ), she has never had a problem with hips, in fact all of hers have had hips scores of 3 -3 or below and one of her stud dogs has produced 2 with hips score of 0 - 0  and 2 with 1 - 1,  the stud dogs are all tested clear for haemophillia,  the temprements are sound and all dogs and bitches have good undercoats.
when my friend lost her best boy 18 months ago it broke my heart as he was a true ambasedor for the breed despite his colour, if some of the black and tans were half has soft and gentle as him and had such good hips and produced such sound puppies the breed would not be in the state it is in today ! !

all i am trying to say is there are good and bad in both colours and it is unfair to tar everyone with the same brush.

please excuse my spelling.

I thought GSD standard allows for all these colours, and the undesireable colurs and coat types are clearly spelled out.

Colour
Black or black saddle with tan, or gold to light grey markings. All black, all grey, with lighter or brown markings referred to as Sables. Nose black. Light markings on chest or very pale colour on inside of legs permissible but undesirable, as are whitish nails, red-tipped tails or wishy-washy faded colours defined as lacking in pigmentation. Blues, livers, albinos, whites (i.e. almost pure white dogs with black noses) and near whites highly undesirable. Undercoat, except in all black dogs, usually grey or fawn. Colour in itself is of secondary importance having no effect on character or fitness for work. Final colour of a young dog only ascertained when outer coat has developed.

so why the Black and Tan vs White comments????

>> so why the Black and Tan vs White comments????

You have of course quoted the UK breed standard in which there are no disqualifying colours or cost type. I do think that dogs should be bred to the German standard which precludes non standard colours & coat types.

I've had GSDs for 50 years & once upon a time the white puppies were sold cheaper to pet homes & registrations endorsed so that the white dog's offspring could not be registered or shown. Then like so many "in"things it became very popular to sell the whites, longcoats, blues etc as rare for high prices & the rot set in. Now people breed for colour & coat type with little knowledge or regard for the full genetic backgrounds of their breeding stock, they know nothing of the lines that are not on the pedigree & few if any take the time to trace back their dogs pedigrees to dogs they consider do not influence theirs. Just because a dog is at the back of the pedigree or off it altogether it can still have an influence on their dogs.

Daunton was one such breeder & frequently bred very closely to ensure that she could produce all white litters.

There are quite a few blue/tans born in litters of correctly coloured dogs, especially if they have two or more lines to Rosehurst Chris as he carried the blue factored gene, the difference between these puppies & those bred from blue parents is that they have the correct structure & conformation as well as having correct temperaments & usually good health results.

I do know that the whites, blues, longcoats that end up in rescue have major health & character problems, even the ones that come in as puppies & young dogs.

It is not quite as bad to breed for colour/coat as it is without health testing, but it usually goes hand in hand with breeding non standard colours/coat type. We have at our club two half brothers by the same unregistered dog out of two litter sisters(unreg)(one over sized sister & one under sized sister)both have behavioural problems despite having attended club since being babies & also health problems(the younger one had two retained testicles as had all the dogs in the litter & his mother is in whelp again to the same dog. No health tested have been done, because to quote the breeders"As the dogs are not KC registered they are perfectly healthy, only KC dogs have health problems" not surprisingly they never have any problems selling their puppies with such claims

> You have of course quoted the UK breed standard

We are, of course, in the UK :-)