http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/jan/14/bbc-crufts-dog-show-coverage

Can quite believe I have actually just read this article!!!!

whats not to understand?
whatever your views are re the BBC's conduct re the documentary, by their own logic, it makes simple perfect sense.
they screen a show about unhealthy breeding permitted by KC rules.
they then decide not to support the KC by not screening Crufts.
the KC changes the rules disallowing breeding to the detriment in health over 200 breeds.
the BBC says that is what we wanted, we now support the KC position, so we would be happy to screen their show Crufts.
granted KC might say up yours, which they are entitled to do.
personally i couldnt care one way or the other if Crufts is on TV, as its as interesting to watch as Songs Of Praise, Cricket, or Celebrity Big Brother.

Have to laugh at the bit where they say Judges will have the power to disqualify a dog ----------- erm sorry but thought they'd ALWAYS had the power to withhold placings which in effect is the same thing, so much PR drivel with too many folk trying to claim a victory over the KC for any changes they make.  At the end of the day non of this has any legal standing there's already 1 writ issued against the KC I can see many more in future or worse still factions creating their own registration clubs.

Personally I hope the KC do say Up your's BBC take a hike and work with another to film it in future, am sooo looking forward to this years show without the tv crews and celebs there just for a chance of being seen on tv or interviewed free publicity.
Man I'm cynical tonight lol

I do wish they would get the facts correct re Pedigree-they withdrew from shows in August(before the PDE) & it is purely down to money, they have launched the on line breeders scheme, which is obviously far cheaper than paying for stands, sponsorship & staff for shows.

The BBC broke their contract by withdrawing so will have to pay the KC whatever was laid down in the contract even if they don't cover Crufts-not very good in the light of other things going on within the BBC over money at this time. I hope the KC tell the BBC where to go & what they can do with their coverage(like put it where the sun never shines

As for the RSPCA they should never have been allowed back into any dog show after the infamous false dead dog poster

I stayed off the last thread about this but can I just say that there are some of us who are really going to miss the Crufts coverage, esp as I actually have a red button this year! I have no chance of getting there in person, and couldn't afford it if I could. My whole family enjoy watching and there are loads of phone calls in the run up to BIS. We are really going to miss it this year and I'm sure that we are not the only ones. Hope it can be sorted so that SOMEONE is showing it next year.

I would miss it too as I have no chance of going in person just now but at the same time I would not be looking forward to a BBC script in which they may try to claim all the credit for these changes even if Ben is delivering it!

yes, im looking forward to that bit too Isabel - I bet they really big themselves up over it !!

Me too, I don't think I'll ever get to crufts & certainly not the whole 3/4 days so I'll be really sorry if it isn't shown on TV.

I will probably go two days this year but still want to watch the groups and BIS on tv.

Ive got my tickets we had such a great time last year, Im going up Saturday to Birmingham hotel, Sunday at Crufts and I have Best of Breed tickets, hotel again and home Monday and work - Great Day out. We saw the Whistlers (Gun Dogs) last year and see the Jake's (Border Collies) this year.

I don't want them back!  Many of us breed healthy dogs and their production was so one sided. 

I will be Cani-Crossing with my unfit (sarcastically meant of cours) pedigree on the Friday and showing him on the Saturday.  It's me that't the unfit one :)

> they screen a show about unhealthy breeding permitted by KC rules.
> they then decide not to support the KC by not screening Crufts.
> the KC changes the rules disallowing breeding to the detriment in health over 200 breeds.
>

Speak for yourself but there's lots of breeds out there that are perfectly healthy unexaggerated forms of dogs.   Just a minority of breeds that are easy targets for the uneducated.

I'm going on Sunday but not stopping for BIS. I will be glad if it's re-televised, maybe show some more of the agility, obedience etc & I want to be able to see BIS at home on tv.

> Just a minority of breeds that are easy targets for the uneducated.

Quite, and it was a very small number of breeds that the BBC wanted excluded from the show.

krusewalker
    > they screen a show about unhealthy breeding permitted by KC rules.
    > they then decide not to support the KC by not screening Crufts.
    > the KC changes the rules disallowing breeding to the detriment in health over 200 breeds.
 
ChristineW
Speak for yourself but there's lots of breeds out there that are perfectly healthy unexaggerated forms of dogs.   Just a minority of breeds that are easy targets for the uneducated.

the wording in your post is not what i wrote in my post. 

> the wording in your post is not what i wrote in my post. 

I have looked three times and can't see any differences :-)

I want to watch the groups and BIS on TV too, Im not really bothered what channel shows Crufts as long as I get to see it! I dont know if I will be going this year as fingers crossed I will hopefully have a very young puppy to look after at home :-)

    the wording in your post is not what i wrote in my post. 

isobel
I have looked three times and can't see any differences :-)

you need to read my whole post, not just the three lines christine has taken out of context and mistaken the meaning of.

> Speak for yourself but there's lots of breeds out there that are perfectly healthy unexaggerated forms of dogs.   Just a minority of breeds that are easy targets for the uneducated

Yep no changes to our breed standard needed I see.

nor mine ! - just where are you getting the figure of 200 unhealthy breeds from Krusewalker ?

Personally the BBC can stick their Crufts Coverage where the sun don't shine - shame on the Kc and the rest of us in the show world if we let them back  - obviously they've had  loads of letters complaining and are worried about their viewing figures - well TOUGH !

Hello Trevor

i have no idea what you are talking about?

did you not just read my last 2 posts which state christine's quoting of my original post is mistaken?

Ah! you are literally asking me where i got the figure of 200 in regards to the KC changing standards according to health???

thats the BBC news website and some sunday newspapers:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7828455.stm

it states 209 

> it states 209 

well they are wrong then if not all the standards have been changed

well they are wrong then if not all the standards have been changed

how many kennel club recognised breeds are there compared to 209?
so you could well be right, but the link hasnt said all standards have been changed

this is the KC link with the changes:

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2223

i think that is the 209?

I think there are only 210 recognised breeds (haven't counted them, to be honest, but it rings a bell) and many have had no changes at all.

cheers for that jeangenie
i have just counted the changes. its 78 breeds.
the news item is correct, apart from the figure

there are 210 recognised breeds and of that number few are changed, and fewer still changed dramatically. eg. the afgan has a minor eye description change only.

though they seem to have butchered the bloodhound  :(

So in fact the majority of breeds have had no changes to their standards whatsoever.

> So in fact the majority of breeds have had no changes to their standards whatsoever.

and a lot that have the changes are tiny

Just to give you an idea of the sort of PC type changes they've made for the sake of PR rather than any need my own breed is known for its healthy longevity with few vet trips needed in the average 15 yr lifespan.

The KC have changed 1 word in our standard from 'Fine' to 'Lighter' for their rear but as all it is normal for a mammal to have narrower hips than shoulders its a bit of nonsense for the sake of keeping the anti's happy.

> The KC have changed 1 word in our standard from 'Fine' to 'Lighter' for their rear

I suspect they have gone through all the standards merely looking for words that could be seen as too prescriptive in a detrimental direction rather than consider each and every breed.  Not a bad thing I would say.  Many of these 78 breeds are not over exaggerated and probably never will be but by moderating the language you are hopefully safeguarding that ever happening in the future.  Clearly a tiny minority have been specifically dealt with.

Krusewalker -

here's a quote direct from your post !

breeding to the detriment in health over 200 breeds

there have been minimal if any changes to the overwhelming majority of breed standards - it is a gross exaggeration ( but a good sound bite) to claim that over 200 breeds are currently being bred " to the detriment of their health" - it is after all mainly show breeders who routinely health test their dogs, import new lines and are willing to travel many hundreds of miles to ensure the best for their breeding programmes - this kind of scare mongering drives the general public straight into the arms of  puppy farmers who do NONE of these things !

Krusewalker -

here's a quote direct from your post !

breeding to the detriment in health over 200 breeds

there have been minimal if any changes to the overwhelming majority of breed standards - it is a gross exaggeration ( but a good sound bite) to claim that over 200 breeds are currently being bred " to the detriment of their health" - it is after all mainly show breeders who routinely health test their dogs, import new lines and are willing to travel many hundreds of miles to ensure the best for their breeding programmes - this kind of scare mongering drives the general public straight into the arms of  puppy farmers who do NONE of these things !

So, trevor, was I right the first time when i asked have you actually read my posts properly?
I already corrected my own reaction to your post by later realising you were merely asking me where i got my figures? So I posted again explaining the figure is from BBC news website and also explained I have now worked out for myself it is 78 breeds and that 200 is wrong.
But you are still attributing arguments to me that i have never made in any of my posts.
I havent made any arguments about your topic above or "spoken on behalf of myself", as Christine put it, I merely made a point why it would made sense, from the BBC point of view, why they would consider screening Crufts again.
It's all there to read in my first post if you read it again fully and not just quotes given their own meaning out of context.

I can see what you mean now when I read it again but your first post is quite hard to read in the format you have used.  Perhaps if you had reworded your point when Christine first misunderstood, instead of just directing people back to it, all further confusion could have been avoided.

Pomeranian's also have the eye change?  Not quite sure as we've had Pomeranian's for 30 years and never had any eye problems.  I think it's a shame that some different colours in breeds aren't accepted.  I understand the reasoning of the breeds that have health problems with certain colours of course.

> I suspect they have gone through all the standards merely looking for words that could be seen as too prescriptive in a detrimental direction rather than consider each and every breed.  Not a bad thing I would say.  Many of these 78 breeds are not over exaggerated and probably never will be but by moderating the language you are hopefully safeguarding that ever happening in the future.  Clearly a tiny minority have been specifically dealt with.

I agree Isabel. The Mastiff breed standard has what appears to be minimal changes of a few words or phrases, but I think that by introducing even these minor changes has limited the possibility for exagerations to get through.

Ahh funny in a paper last week it said the standard for the eye had changed just checked and it's the ears on the KC website, not much difference :)  We must be getting big ears in the breed then!  It's not as though that was a health problem as Pom's don't really suffer from ear problems.

> It's not as though that was a health problem as Pom's don't really suffer from ear problems.

I think it is a good thing that the KC have been proactive in anticipating problems that might occur if people take things to extreme.  Why wait until a fad for a particular extreme takes a hold as it has in a very few other breeds? 

They have now changed this article, and added in the following :

"This article was amended on Thursday 15 January 2009. We wrongly said that the breeding rules change by the Kennel Club had prompted the BBC to "review its decision" to stop televising the Crufts dog show. The BBC advise us that is not the case. This has been corrected."

And the title of the article is "BBC to consider Crufts TV comeback"

I give up! I can't be bother to take and interest in all this anymore just making me really fed up! I didn't want the BCC to be there anyway, just thought the had a hell of a cheek to "consider" a comeback after such a short period of time and various other reasons!

I feel that if they are still planning on doing the follow up to the one sided documentary that the KC should not have them filming unless they give guarantees that it will be shown that many show breeders followed health guidelines well before the first production etc.

I understood what you meant,  you were meaning the BBCs opinions and why they think it is right you didn't give your opinion whatsoever :-)    Just misinterpretation of your post..

Isabel:
I can see what you mean now when I read it again but your first post is quite hard to read in the format you have used.  Perhaps if you had reworded your point when Christine first misunderstood, instead of just directing people back to it, all further confusion could have been avoided.

Fair point Isabel

Blue
I understood what you meant,  you were meaning the BBCs opinions and why they think it is right you didn't give your opinion whatsoever :-)    Just misinterpretation of your post..

Thank you Blue

Well there's certainly a lot to read and digest on here! I will miss crufts being televised this year as my children and i love to sit and watch it. Am gonna go on Toy and Utility day but will be sad to miss the rest!

im not too bothered if its shown on tv or not! i will there for the 4 days supporting a few friends in agility and showing and will be looking out for some breeders of the dogs i would like for my next dog :-) ive even persuaded OH to come down on the sat! :-O im sure hes looking forward to it he just wont admit it! ha ha! :-)

I'm told the only difference in the Cavalier breed standard is to discriminate against dogs showing white of eye! This has nothing to do with the head shape, brain herniation or heart problems, and will only narrow our gene pool further. What is the KC playing at???

> I'm told the only difference in the Cavalier breed standard is to discriminate against dogs showing white of eye!

I can't see what change you are talking about LucyDogs. 

I can't see any changes at all to the Cavalier breed standard on the KC site

Perhaps it's a draft that's been sent out to the Club, I was just told that by a Cavalier friend of mine.

LOL actually I always thought it was a sort of unwritten part of the breed standard as if the whites of the eyes are visible it means the dog's eyes are not clinically as they should be. if that makes any sense !

There are no changes announced to the Cavalier standard; but if the whites of the eyes are visible then it means they're protruding too much which is contrary to the current standard, where it says the eyes should be large, dark, round but not prominent; spaced well apart.