As it says in the heading ...

http://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/item/2223

Very Interesting...
Thanks Ridgie!

I'm pleased to see some Temperaments being addressed.

Hmm i think all the dogs with big heads are guna end up looking daney now, by the way of that lot.

Louise

i was invited to comment on my breed when these alterations where 1st brought to our committees attention. In my breed, it seems a ridiculous change. The skin is there to protect the hounds eyes when hunting. So now they are either trying to stop our hound hunting, or they are going to encourage more injuries to eyes. Wheres the sense in that??

Lots of changes for the bulldog, I'm pleased to see :-)

But I wonder how long it will take for judges to judge to the revised breed standards?

Well maybe we will se a rise in entries at shows as these breed standards are allowing what we all know as bad examples of our breed to be acceptable. Something that represents more of a viszla in my breed with a muzzle more than a 3rd of the length of the head and no deep medium groove.

Louise

Should i go into a breed the Kc havent recognised therefore cant mess up.

It is going to take many years of dedicated breeding for some of these breeds to breed out what the KC see as being detrimental to the breed.  My question is  What do the judges do in the mean time?  You are asked to judge to the breed standard.  This isnt something that is going to happen overnight.  On the ITV news tonight the reporter was at a very well known Bulldog breeders kennels....when questioned about the illnesses his breed inherits the breeder very rightly answered "vets only see the sick dogs not the ones that are fit and well".

> when questioned about the illnesses his breed inherits the breeder very rightly answered "vets only see the sick dogs not the ones that are fit and well".

Bulldog enthusiasts do not see their breeds (obvious) health faults as 'illnesses' so therefore would not take them to the vets. The dogs are not inheriting these things as seen as a negative, but rather, the breeders have been trying to breed some of these exaggerations in - so no they would not view their dogs as being ill at all.

But you cannot tar all the bulldog breeders with the same brush.

Not tarring, just pointing out that breeders (even top ones :-)) have been breeding exaggerations into the bulldog as they see them as 'correct' when they are clearly not in the best interests of the dog itself.

Well i see the olde tyme bulldog breeders cashing in here. So what are bulldog breeders going to do? Mate there champion bitch to a 'bad' specimen to make healthier puppies? i sure doubt it. I think this is going to take a great number of years and confusion on the show scene wont help it.

Louise

> Mate there champion bitch to a 'bad' specimen

A less exaggerated one hopefully.  I am sure it will take time but it should not be beyond the skills of good breeders.

I don't know a huge amount the Bully breeds, but wondered what the European and North American counter parts look like, are they any different in their breeding techniques??

I do know of a Berner breeder in NZ who wants fresh blood in the lines so is in the process of importing frozen semen of a Berner from Canada to help improve the lines, expensive yes, but i think if this helps open out a gene pool which may be small and also help change the breeds to what the KC now wish for them to be like, then it can be done over a period of time.

Bully breeds pretty much the same if not  as the UK from the specimens at the shows here in Germany & Holland, nothing jumps out at you as being spectacularly different IMO

> Hmm i think all the dogs with big heads are guna end up looking daney now, by the way of that lot.
>

i don't know... i suppose they could but i think that the reading is simply to prevent exaggeration- for example in my breed (bullmastiff) they have taken out the description that circumfrance of skull can match height of dog... a description that depending on the dog could be either very short or extremely large headed. similarly the bouvier head description is toned down a little.

we can but hope it only works out to be a good thing and doesn't alter them to much

I think it's all just a formality really - the KC are just covering their own backs with regards the public and media.  At the end of the day it will be up to the judge on the day as to what dog wins and becomes desirable breeding material.

I think they mean business.  I can't see them allowing any dog to enter the big ring that could not pass the veterinary inspection.

But surely no dog would make it to the ring if it couldn't pass a veterinary inspection?  It would be shopped to the stewards before it got that far surely by another concerned exhibitor?

> It would be shopped to the stewards before it got that far surely by another concerned exhibitor?

If that was the case all this fuss would never have come about but unfortunately fitness for purpose has not been of concern to fellow exhibitors in a minority of breeds.

General Appearance
Smooth-coated, fairly thick set, rather low in stature, broad, powerful and compact. Head, fairly large in proportion to size but no point so much in excess of others as to destroy the general symmetry, or make the dog appear deformed, or interfere with its powers of motion. Face relatively short, muzzle broad, blunt and inclined slightly upwards. Dogs showing respiratory distress highly undesirable. Body fairly short, well knit, limbs stout, well muscled and in hard condition with no tendency towards obesity. Hindquarters high and strong. Bitches not so grand or well developed as dogs.

this still does not sound like the kc wants the bulldog to look,
we will never breed skinny long legged bulldogs and also as a bulldog breeder/exhibitor we do not overlook an unhealthy dog,
us that show/breed want the best for our dogs health and go throught the correct breeding procedures to get this,
i own 5 bulldogs and all are fine breathers,can walk,run,play etc,as molly 1 says its going to take years to change it and we shall stick to our guns,
also if we did change the standard where do we go for studs that look like the new standard bulldog?
there arnt any and i for one wouldnt put my girls to any old long legged dog!!! weve worked hard over the years and its so tiring to hear people stating bulldogs cant breath!!! they are like any other dog that breathes and we love them just the way they are,we dont want to be outcrossing to others as then we are introducing a different temperament of the bulldog,i could go on and on but i hope you get the picture im painting.

long live the british bulldog.

> this still does not sound like the kc wants the bulldog to look

I'm not sure what you mean.
As regards skinny and long legged I can't see those descriptions in the new standard.  The standard now is moderate, in my opinion, and certainly does not lean so far the otherway as you seem to be reading it.  I don't see why the Bulldog cannot still be a stocky, strong looking animal without all the exaggerations that some breeders had took it to.

Did you see the news yesterday.  The old Bulldog photo from a 100 years made the breed look even more deformed, yes it was leaner and taller but the legs looked really deformed and it had really bulging eyes.  Not exactly a good example and doubt that it was something that people would want to work towards.

in the news it stated they want them to have longer legs,smaller heads,straight backs and not the roch back etc,
we dont want a bulldog with long legs,we will end up with a boxer/staffie type of dog,now do you understand!

thankyou perrodeagua for your comment,youve hit it on the nail :)

i thought bulldogs years ago had long noses to hold on to the bull? todays squashed faces couldnt possibly do that! it took i think 50 years to turn from long nose to short so will it take this long to change back? will it also take 50 years for the bassett to go back to long legs, shorter ears and no wrinkle as they had 50 years ago? (although i believe hunting bassetts are already like this?- there was one at discover dogs)

> Not exactly a good example and doubt that it was something that people would want to work towards.

I can't see anything in the new standard directing breeders to return to that look and the overall admonishment that all the standards now carry, ie

>A Breed Standard is the guideline which describes the ideal characteristics, temperament and appearance of a breed and ensures that the breed is fit for function. Absolute soundness is essential. Breeders and judges should at all times be careful to avoid obvious conditions or exaggerations which would be detrimental in any way to the health, welfare or soundness of this breed. From time to time certain conditions or exaggerations may be considered to have the potential to affect dogs in some breeds adversely, and judges and breeders are requested to refer to the Kennel Club website for details of any such current issues. If a feature or quality is desirable it should only be present in the right measure.,

would preclude anything detrimental to health developing.

In bull-baiting a dog was put in a ring with a ferocious bull for a fight of survival. The dog needed a strong jaw for a good bite. And once he got a good bite, he needed a short nose and a huge chest so that he could breathe while holding tight to the bull with his mouth.
             -----------

Can I ask I naive question?

> In bull-baiting a dog was put in a ring with a ferocious bull for a fight of survival. The dog needed a strong jaw for a good bite. And once he got a good bite, he needed a short nose and a huge chest so that he could breathe while holding tight to the bull with his mouth.

In the above example this is a dog that has a very distinctive look based on the job they were originally conceived/bred/developed for.  Presumably dogs that didn't conform had a fairly short life expectancy whereas the successful ones will have been bred from.   Breeding in this way would, I guess, have ensured continuity of type.  Once this job was outlawed and no longer provides the blueprint to what picture do breeders conform?

In gundog groups for instance you often hear people talk of ability to work a day in the field and there are still plenty of dogs on 'active duty' as it were to check against.  What do breeders of dogs designed for outlawed practises do?  There is no way of testing whether a dog could still do the original job. Do the KC breed standards look to original design at all and how would they consider fit for purpose/function?

Apologies if I'm being a bit dim!!

> will it also take 50 years for the bassett to go back to long legs, shorter ears and no wrinkle as they had 50 years ago? (although i believe hunting bassetts are already like this?- there was one at discover dogs)

In the mid thirties the pack hounds of Bassets were crossed with other hounds 'to keep the breed alive as it was in danger of becoming extinct' These pack 'Bassets' are known as English Bassets and have been outcrossed with other breeds to produce a longer legged,faster hunting hound - they are not Basset Hounds
Basset Hounds were introduced into England from France in 1866. Sir Everett Millais imported a dog called Model in 1874 from a French working pack. He was 12 inches at the shoulder  and his ears from tip to tip measured 19 inches. If you look at earlier pictures of Bassets you will see just how unsound they were in front construction. Modern breeders have worked very hard to improve this and you will find very few Bassets today who knuckle over or turn their feet excessively though you will find this in pack Bassets. The Albany 'English Basset' pack are now looking to introduce pure bred Bassets into their breeding programme as the gene pool in these packs is very narrow due to close breeding of pack hounds. So it's not as rosy in the packs as you are led to believe

Going back to the new bulldog standard, the KC have given out drawings of what they would like the new type bulldog to look like.

www.showbull.moonfruit.com/#/breedstandard/4532595080

Peanuts

I would be embarassed if I bred a  bulldog that looked like the new "standard".

Have the KC actually issued those pictures or is that someones interpretation of what the new standard requires?  It is not clear from the link and I can't see any of this on the KC website.

I think I have found the answer here.  It does appear to be someones interpretation.

Not on the Kc website as more pictures are to follow according to the KC , the pictures are on public view at

www.birminghamandmidlandcountiesbulldogclub.com/standards.htm

and scroll down to see all the standards and pictures

Not good at links i'm afraid.

Peanuts

I think we posted at the same time.  I have seen the link and it does seem to be an interpretation by a breeder in Australia rather than anything the KC has issued.

We were under the impression given by the clubs that the pictures were drawn up on the KC approval, maybe the club members are just up in arms about the whole thing.

Peanuts

As the breed is known simply as the 'Bulldog' not the 'British Bulldog', this entire website is at odds with the KC.

Frankly I don't think the present dogs even look like the first illustration being much squatter, and more exaggerated in head.  If they did mostly look like the left hand drawing I don't think there would be such a need for changes.

What gives the impression that the right hand illustrations is an example of what is wanted.