as most of you know i am seeing a behaviourist about tios unpredicatable aggression to strangers. well things have been going great, i've been for walks etc where he has been impecably behaved, no probs with the people round over christmas etc. everythings been great.

i took him to the loo this morning where we met one of our neighbours and he went mental, barking and lunging. there was no provocation and simply no need. i am really annoyed about it, but i think thats better than me being upset and nervous for the future.

i know it's going to be a long process but i really felt we were getting somewhere.

anyway, just needed a rant.

> well things have been going great, i've been for walks etc where he has been impecably behaved, no probs with the people round over christmas etc. everythings been great.
>

That is defianately something to focus on - progress is progress, despite any set-backs :)

This maybe a complete shot in the dark, but is it worth keeping a diary/record of any incidents like this, noting weather the person is male/female, tall/short/ what they are wearing (dark clothes/hat/glasses/beard), how they approached (appeard suddenly from behind, walked confidently towards you etc..), hair colour/length, weather is was day/night/dusk and even how you were feeling beforehand (nervous/relaxed etc.), the person spoke to you before you spoke to them.... It may reveal a 'pattern' or some common denominatoer that Teo is reacting too that isn't immediately obvious? and then you'd have more of a focus point to work with, rather than people in general.

The reason I mention this is Buster gets very exited when he sees girls with a certain 'look'. They can be teenages/in thier twenties, long dark hair, well groomed - basically they have the same look about them as my sister - completely immaculate (and not compattible with slobber!!!!), who Buster LOVES. It's obvious he doesn't think they are my sister, but he must be associating them with her. At one stage I dreaded passing all women, as I would really struggle to hold him if he wanted to jump all over them & slobber them - but it seemed unpredictable. He could pass 10 women/girls and only suddenly get silly about one, then the penny dropped - it's the 'look' they have. Now I've figured this, I can tell who Buster will find especially exiting before he does :)

Anyway, keep up the good work and rant away when you need too :)

> This maybe a complete shot in the dark, but is it worth keeping a diary/record of any incidents like this, noting weather the person is male/female, tall/short/ what they are wearing (dark clothes/hat/glasses/beard), how they approached (appeard suddenly from behind, walked confidently towards you etc..), hair colour/length, weather is was day/night/dusk and even how you were feeling beforehand (nervous/relaxed etc.), the person spoke to you before you spoke to them.... It may reveal a 'pattern' or some common denominatoer that Teo is reacting too that isn't immediately obvious? and then you'd have more of a focus point to work with, rather than people in general.
>

thats a good idea. i'll try to do that.

its just frustrating, and i know he's scaring people doing it which worries me enormously.

Have you had his eyes checked?  Just one of my girls goes into a room full of confidence etc. but if someone bends down over her etc. she would if given the chance have a go.  When we went for her first eye test we found that she had a problem with her sight (non-hereditary) and the specialist was shocked that we hadn't noticed anything.  Now I just tell people to stay stood up straight, ignore her and she will come to them.  Once they do this and she goes up to them she is then happy to be stroked etc.

The job I do with people is rehab. We always factor in 'off days'.I would guess we can do the same for our four legged friends too.
Karen :)

we had the vet go over him after the more pronounced aggression (what i couldn't definately say was fear) started, no probs appart from a little stiffness in his leg.

he has never liked this person but it was totally uncalled for. the one time he decided she was ok was when he met her bitch.

i know, but he would not listen to me at all, i tried to turn him away from her and walk to the other side of the garden but he did not want to. it was to full on to be just a little off.

i hate this, i just want to be able to enjoy my dog. even if he still doesn't like other people but tolerates them that would be fine. its very wareing

> i hate this, i just want to be able to enjoy my dog. even if he still doesn't like other people but tolerates them that would be fine. its very wareing

Astarte, it seems like you've done really well with him so far :) Try to keep focused on the progress you have made with him. I can imagine it's awfull when he gets like this, a big stong dog, a lot of effort will go into you just staying on your feet, let alone controlling him (going by what it like when Buster thinks somebedy just HAS to have a slobbering).
Don't let it get you down - you know Tio will pick up on it if you are feeling emotionally drained with it all and take advantage.

Does he wear a muzzle? I'm just asking as it may help you feel more relaxed & in control if he's muzzled (not wanting to go against any advice the behaviourist is giving you), the more confidant you feel, the more controll you will have over him. Little set-backs like this must really takes it's toll on your confidence, you must be battling with staying relaxed yet being aware you may have to stop him having an outburst :(
I think you've done really well. You've helped Tio deal with moving home (in with you & OH), you having the op & all the re-hab that went with that, all the while you've been working with him on this problem and have managed to make progress. Feel proud of what you've achieved so far and use that to give you the momentum to keep going with him :)

lKnow but please stay positive.
A new day will bring you a new look.
Karenx

thanks guys, thats really encouraging. thank you all for the support.

mastiff lover we are waiting for a mussle to arrive from the internet- having bought 2 already that didn't fit :( (the behviourist thinks the same as you :))

> Little set-backs like this must really takes it's toll on your confidence, you must be battling with staying relaxed yet being aware you may have to stop him having an outburst :-(
>

nicely this time my confidence isn't rocked, i'm just really annoyed. i think i can use the annoyance to empower myself even more.

i realised on wednesday that i don't enjoy being with him in public like i do the others. usually with any of the dogs we've had i've loved walking with them, having a nice time with them and feeling very proud of the beautiful animal i had with me and the looks they would draw (very vain but i like showing my dogs off lol!). with tio, despite him being stunning, i don't feel like that. so on wednesday i just had a mental turn around and we went for a walk where i just tried to focus on really good things, lol when he got a bit nervous i'd start singing and this seemed to make him relax a bit. it was so lovely. we had another good one with the behaviourist till we got back to the flat where he woofed at someone.

since that and given that this morning was in the garden i'm wondering if its just that he gets very defensive of 'his' house and is confused by other people in the garden. its not surprising he can't understand the idea of communal gardens.

well, that can hopefully be fixed- we are thinking of spending a bit more money and renting a house. i wonder if that might help...

anyway, thanks for the support guys. its really nice to have people who get it to talk to.

thanks karen.

> nicely this time my confidence isn't rocked, i'm just really annoyed. i think i can use the annoyance to empower myself even more.

Yay! go girl, you can do it :)

>since that and given that this morning was in the garden i'm wondering if its just that he gets very defensive of 'his' house and is confused by other people in the garden. its not surprising he can't understand the idea of communal gardens.

Of course, yes, communal gardens must be very confusing for him.

Hi Astarte
Don't let this knock you back.  You say that the dog doesn't like this particular neighbour.....is there any particular reason you can think of? 

My male has a problem with single men without dogs in the middle of nowhere and latterly also small boys about the age of 5.  The first is due to my having to ask him to protect me when we met a flasher and a druggie and a couple of other weirdos when out walking;  the latter is due to an obnoxious family that moved in a couple of doors down and the child started throwing stones at the boy when he was in the garden and generally teasing him.

I haven't 'cured' either, but todate we have very successful management techniques in place for when we encounter single men in the wild warwickshire countryside!  ;-)  I am lucky in that he is very food focussed and also has a high hunt/prey drive - both of which have been utilised in the alternative strategies for when we meet guys! :-)  Meeting small boys is still work in progress!  :-(

All I'm saying is that it can be turned around.........I can now relax when out and about in the middle of nowhere and don't care what oddball blokes come round the corner!  :-)
It takes time.....take each success as it comes; learn from the failures and move on!

So long as you have good advisors to guide you, you can do it!

> is there any particular reason you can think of? 
>

um. he might not like the smell of gin? she is a bit weird i must say and also cannot take a warning from him (loony was still trying to come up to me this morning after he started!) still it was a severe reaction and she is a little oldish woman. she also hits her dog :( he doesn't like any neighbours (which i can kind of get being a guarding breed- except the ones with a boxer bitch he likes) but she he particularly dislikes. yesterday we went out to the loo and there was a strange guy in the garden who creeped me out a bit and he barked a couple of times- the guy did kind of sneak up a bit- which i'm ok with as i was slightly uneasy (guy looked a bit dodgy) but today he went bonkers.

unfortunately he's not super food focused but i'll chat to my behaviourist (whos lovely) about it and see if he can suggest something.

btw, may the small boy have unpleasant things happen to him :( your poor dog!

its encouraging to hear from others who have gotten through similar things.

thanks, its so lovely getting this kind of support. i'm not feeling knocked, i'm feeling determined! and grumpy! :)

um. he might not like the smell of gin? she is a bit weird i must say and also cannot take a warning from him (loony was still trying to come up to me this morning after he started!) still it was a severe reaction and she is a little oldish woman. she also hits her dog  he doesn't like any neighbours (which i can kind of get being a guarding breed- except the ones with a boxer bitch he likes) but she he particularly dislikes. yesterday we went out to the loo and there was a strange guy in the garden who creeped me out a bit and he barked a couple of times- the guy did kind of sneak up a bit- which i'm ok with as i was slightly uneasy (guy looked a bit dodgy) but today he went bonkers.


OK...if I'm reading this right and she's an alcoholic, then her body language will be different.  Also, a dog's sense of smell is far greater than our own, as I'm sure you are aware, so he will be picking up on this big time.  I think this is a different situation to meeting Joe Bloggs in the street.  You need to discuss this with your behaviourist, but my gut feel is that in these circumstances, if he has given a warning and she has ignored it, then you need to reinforce the warning..... not everyone speaks dog, or some sadly think that they are macho enough to beat their own toy poodle (dunno if that is the case!) and take on every other canine in the universe.  I would calmly but very authoritatively tell her to stand still, avoid eye contact and adopt a soft posture.  I would then try and obtain his focus and walk away and praise lavishly. 

Although you don't want him barking and lunging at every Tom, Dick & Harry, my view is that you need to preserve the warning WHEN appropriate.  It's like the people who stop the dog growling at them when they try to move it off the sofa and then wonder why it suddenly  bites them with no warning?!

These are just off the cuff thoughts without seeing or knowing you or your dog, so really just food for thought to discuss with your behaviourist, ok?  :-)

Good luck.

> i'm wondering if its just that he gets very defensive of 'his' house and is confused by other people in the garden. its not surprising he can't understand the idea of communal gardens.
>
>

Lol oh if only they could talk :-) onwards and upwards.....:-)

Best wishes

We all have our off days and our furry pals are no exception :-)  Soli has had an off week - she's been lame and had a fever so has been feeling rubbish.  In that time she's bitten me for fussing her (not done this in a long, long time), and today she lunged/barked at kids on bikes (again, not done this for a very long time).  So it's a big step back but I know it's just a glitch - it was her first decent walk for a few days today so it's understandable she was feeling grumpy!

Astarte,

I think Mastifflover's diary idea a very good one. It can help to get a better sense of a pattern/triggers.

It does sound as though he is very tuned in to you and your reactions, down to the tiniest degree (not your fault, this is what makes him tick). Is it possible that you feel a little uncomfortable around this woman (the one that smells of gin)? I don't mean in a major way but just an inward groaning way that we all have when we'd rather not bump into someone, or have to interact with them? Plus if she hits her dogs I can't imagine you hold her in high regard. He's picking up on the fact that she is different from most people and you are the tiniest, weeniest bit uncomfortable. He also knows you've been creeped before in the garden, so this time he's anticipating and lo the weirdo woman appears, from his perspective he was right (if I've understood the sequence of events that is).

He's a guard breed, sounds like he's more reactive than most, even within his breed. He's not that food motivated, his raison d'etre is to protect and serve you and so he's constantly monitoring the environment, looking for traps. He's too good at his job isn't he? In another culture these would be prized attributes. We can't stop you feeling uncomfortable about things, we can't really stop him being tuned in to you and we cannot really undo his guard instincts. I've a hunch that somehow you and your behaviourist have got to give him a job/set of instructions to follow when he is on red alert, so he has a behaviour to follow and you can praise and reward. It is a tall order but, to me anyway, seems the most logical way forward. I hope this makes sense and please forgive me if I'm selling coal to Newcastle, just sharing thoughts.

not knowing her all that well i wouldn't want to label her that way but there is a distinct gin presence. she does not appear drunk but then thats with human eyes. to be honest i am less troubled by his behaviour to her given that i can see why, i am however troubled by his intensity, it was very very strong.

thank you, its really nice having people to sound off to who get it.

> It does sound as though he is very tuned in to you and your reactions, down to the tiniest degree (not your fault, this is what makes him tick). Is it possible that you feel a little uncomfortable around this woman (the one that smells of gin)? I don't mean in a major way but just an inward groaning way that we all have when we'd rather not bump into someone, or have to interact with them? Plus if she hits her dogs I can't imagine you hold her in high regard. He's picking up on the fact that she is different from most people and you are the tiniest, weeniest bit uncomfortable. He also knows you've been creeped before in the garden, so this time he's anticipating and lo the weirdo woman appears, from his perspective he was right (if I've understood the sequence of events that is).

i absolutely think this is the case. i'm working really hard on trying to transmit nothing but happy thoughts down the lead but its very difficult!

> He's a guard breed, sounds like he's more reactive than most, even within his breed. He's not that food motivated, his raison d'etre is to protect and serve you and so he's constantly monitoring the environment, looking for traps. He's too good at his job isn't he? In another culture these would be prized attributes.

lol, yes pity i'm not an 18th century land owner! poachers beware!

the behaviourist is having me work on getting him to sit and look at me during anything that might be a situation- going slowly so far but then i've only been on it a couple of weeks. even then we've seen an improvement.

i do think the living situation of a building of flats is confusing him a lot- he doesn't get what is his to guard. so we are looking at houses at the mo.

worse now though we seem to have a (excuse my phrasing) 'jakey' living in our close!! he legs it whenever someone comes in but there is now muck and wet stuff (i shudder to think what) all up the stairs. he also appears to be sleeping in the bin shed! so i'm more worried toileting tio.

never rains eh? :)

um. he might not like the smell of gin? she is a bit weird i must say

I know I don't really have any aggression issues with my Golden Retriever dog, but he will bark and growl at people in the streets sometimes. I know the signs now and can anticipate when he's going to bark at someone. And it's ALWAYS people than look strange to him. If somebody is limping, walking funny (drunk) he will invariably raise his ears and the hairs on his back and give a couple of -frightened- barks! The problem is he will also do that to people in wheelchairs, people with sticks or crutches, people with funny hats (policemen hats!!) or muslim women with headscarves... It's quite embarrassing, as he appears so racist and judgemental!!
It really mostly happens at night when he can't see these people properly and the problem almost disappears during the day. I have to say I don't discourage him too much anyway as I know he's only barking out of fear and wouldn't hurt anybody, and it's quite handy for a young woman on her own to have a big dog barking at strangers if you know what i mean... But what i wanted to say is that dogs can really pick up on appearances. 

> It's quite embarrassing, as he appears so racist and judgemental!!
>

lol, bnp dog! (kidding!)

Gaelle,

I think all pups need lots of socialisation around different appearances. For those of us with guardy breeds it requires even more effort (obviously I don't include your GR in this). We've all spent hours dressing up in hats, sunglasses and putting umbrellas up and down in the house LOL. My lad spent a few weeks last year trying to attack the fire when it spat at him! Now he's older he understands that fires, despite their funny ways, are our friends and good for warming one's paws!

Even the park attendants with their bizarre, scary extra arm that they use for picking up leaves required some getting used to. I made a couple of trips to an old people's home where my dog was able to get used to electric wheelchairs, as well as the look and movements of the elderly, ditto children at school, moving around and screaming in little flocks. The thing that really freaked him was the first time he saw a child being carried atop her Dad's shoulders; that was a real "aaahg look a human monster with two heads, bark, growl bark, growl bark" moment!

But you are right, all of this training can be completely undermined by the dark, so we have to teach them all over again at night.