Hi there,

Please can someone answer some questions i have RE the current Boxer Heart Tests for BCM (pretty please....:-))

If a dog grades at 0-1 on a AS test, and are deemed clear at say 12 months of age are they considered AS free for life?
Is it recommended that dogs are now 24hr holter tested for BCM at 2 years and 5 years of age as standard before breeding or is it yearly?... (info deciphered from boxer Breed Council website)
If the dog is cleared of AS am i right in thinking Holters are now recommended to check for BCM in addition to the AS test, and owners of stud dogs should now be getting this done, meaning is it now passed as the thing to do, given a clear AS test does NOT mean BCM free.
The website also lists 'Deduced BCM Transmitting Dogs' which are considered a risk in pedigrees, the latest update i have December 2008 has dogs on it currently offered for stud advertised with '0' clear hearts.

I ask as i have a bitch potentially due for a stud appointment herself who is scheduled in for a AS test first and i'm now thinking of having a 24hr Holter done too after more research into the BCM issue BUT upon recieving the updated 'Deduced BCM list' of risky pedigrees from the Boxer Breed Council have found my '0' AS heart tested chosen stud, who is quite prolific is now on the list of Risks (he wasnt on the previous updated copy). He's not had a Holter test as far as i'm aware but i have e-mailed now to check.
Our girl has no dogs in her pedigree on the BCM risk list.

Just after advice really... sorry to get very technical!

The best advice one can give is to contact the Boxer Breed Health committee.
Why not contact Dr Cattanach?

My own comments (not necessarily in lines with anyone elses)

Any dog that is tested clear for AS - Aortic stenosis results cannot be considered clear for BCM as
that's not what they are tested for. They are clear of AS at the point of the test (same as a car MOT)
The new heart testing forms indicate that AS testing should be annual.
But you'd need to check with the breed council's recommendations too
(I think it's still for dog must be over 12 months old to go on the heart clear list if it achieve's a clear grade)
As it only costs £10-15 per dog to be tested at the breed shows is it a bad thing for annual testing?
Perhaps the breed reccomendations will change to annual?

Re Cardiomyopathy the tests are
Troponin Blood test - The levels are tested to see as high levels can indicate heart damage.
These blood tests as per the breed council's website are sent to Glasgow.
Holter tests - Can be 24 or 48 hours, This is on recommendation of Dr Paul Wotton as most vet cardiologists
will liase with him re the results of the troponin. So it could be upto 48 hours for the holter tests. Most common
is the 24 hour test. This test if clear means that they are only clear on the day of the holter it does not mean that the
dog will always be clear. This is why the breed council's health committe also advocate progeny analysis where stud dog owners (and breeders of the dams)
check the progress of all pups produced throughout their lives. As this can possibly pick up problems before the stud or dam has symptoms of the disease.
It also means whilst we wait for a DNA test (as there is none available to us as yet) to prove which dogs are carriers/affected or clear we can try to minimise the disease spread within the breed by doing all we can with the reccommended testing, breeding reccomendations and progeny analysis.
But reccomendations can change as medical/scientific advances evolve.

The Deduced BCM transmitting dogs list is a constantly evolving list as more evidence comes available.
Dogs previously thought clear can still go on this list if evidence dictates that the dog/bitch is transmitting the BCM gene
even if they have no symptoms themselves.
The breeding recommendations up on the breed council listing under health and BCM if I remember correctly.

To be honest in my own opinion if the stud you had chosen is on the list of BCM transmitting dogs I personally wouldn't use him even if he was AS tested 0.
As he will be deduced as transmitting the gene for BCM and the resulting litter if you do go ahead would have a 50% chance of being affected/transmitting BCM
themselves. The further back in the pedigree the 'at risk' transmitting dog is the better if you do have an at risk dog in your pedigree.
The generation percentages of being affected/transmitting are shown on the breeding reccomendations document.
However those that don't know their dogs pedigrees inside and out may advertise their dogs as free from BCM lines but they could be on the 6,7,8,9th generation which
doesn't show on their dogs pedigree...I can think of one that was advertised as such but technically they were incorrect.
I don't honestly know if they just didn't realise or if they were hoping people wouldn't realise as the at risk/affected dogs weren't shown on the pups pedigrees.
If you have the option it would be better to go to a stud dog that has no known at risk dogs in his pedigree.

Several breed clubs did have seminars about the BCM - perhaps it might be worth asking if your local Boxer breed club is to have another?
I know of two/three clubs that haven't had a BCM seminar so far but I don't know if they have plans to have one.

As a PS in the dog papers this week in the breed notes Dr Cattanach does ask for anyone that
does have dogs that are from BCM risk free dogs to donate DNA to help identify the gene for BCM.

They have DNA donated from dogs that do have BCM but they are in desperate need of DNA from Boxers that
are free of all BCM risk. So for those of you that are lucky enough to have BCM risk free dogs please please do consider
donating DNA as together we can help the breed which we love so much.
As Bruce says in his piece those with BCM free dogs hold the future of the breed in their hands.
If they don't get DNA from normal dogs every attempt to identify the gene for BCM will be thwarted.

A European consortium of cardiologists has raised the funding for screening of cardiomyopathy genes in a number of
dog breeds. Which includes Boxer Cardiomyopathy.

If any Boxer onwers are interested please get in touch with Dr Cattanach.

Like all health testing it is voluntary..at present.

Aortic Stenosis is a thickened narrowing of the large vessel at the top of the heart - the Aorta, which takes the maximum thrust of blood from the left ventricle on the 'Lub' part of the heartbeat. When narrowed it forces a restricted squish of blood out to, firstly the head (hence the fainting) then the body.
Testing gives a numerical score 0-6

Boxer Cardio Myopathy is an electrical conduction disorder where the signals disfunction.

Many breeders test for AS because it's cheap, quick and easy and a number is easy to work with but BCM is  poorly understood at present and Holter monitering is a far more lengthy and complicated procedure....and not cheap.

Those with stud dogs with good AS scores but with implicated pedigrees are not fulfilling the protocol.

If your dog has an implicated dog in the pedigree 2or 3rd generation - not to be used at stud unless test matings under controlled conditions are carried out.
4th generation and beyond, it is thought to be of an acceptable risk but need Holtered, Troponin tested and regularily reviewed.

For your own peace of mind, offering a Boxer at stud should involve a good AS grade, no implicated animals in first 4 generations, Holtered and Troponin tested.

Perhaps that's why you see so many studs, which dont fulfill the guidelines, advertised.
This information and advice is constantly being reviewed and updated.

Sorry ETA :  I missed your question on AS certification for life.
Most people accept the one off method for AS but I would think it may be something that could deteriorate over time, however once a boxer gets a 0 grade cert in their hand, they are loathe to try again :-(

Thank you for the excellent information guys,

I dont want to name names here but our chosen stud actually has 8 dogs on the BCM risk list in his last 6 generations, and obviously now has thrown me completely - he has been graded clear for AS and is well used and is well known from a well known kennel hence i thought was a good choice but as i was reasearching his pedigrees obviously stumbled upon this BCM risk list and as i say 8 dogs are currently on it,

It does worry me  -and i do hope to god that he's not a carrier- as potentially worse case scenario offspring he has produced could also carry and breed and how 'widespread' potentially this could be.

I'm going to speak to the cardiologist regarding the testing for BCM currently available and go from there, even though no risk dogs are in our line i'd want to do the utmost i can. Are any breeders at the moment adopting Holter testing and will the Boxer Breed Council push for this to be routine (by this i mean recommending 'good' breeders carry it out, set up a scheme etc) or is it kind of glossing over the BCM issues at the moment, stud owners seem quick to shout from the rafters regarding AS which in itself is a good thing but i havent seen many saying the same for BCM currently?

Boxer Bint

I have a dog on that list as she produced 2 cases of BCM very early on...yet the sire of these brothers is by Able Seaman :-( Strangely the sire of my pups ( his son) is not on the list.
My bitch (who was never bred from again thankfully) is long gone and the remaining members of that litter are now 13 years old - but I will never forget the distress it caused to all concerned.

I urge you to do all you can to avoid this awful condition.

I do agree that you should give Bruce Cattanach a call and get the whole story.

thanks tooolz, so sorry to read of your experiences of BCM.

I will definitely give him a call just for his input, it seems that some dogs are listed from what i can tell as they are simply decendants of affected dogs, Able Seaman as you mentioned and I do wonder if some are 'guilty by association'. Its quite confusing i must say.

How far back in a dogs pedigree should be traced to safely say they are from BCM free lines going by the current list of dogs, though i know this will be added to, i've gone back to 10 generations in my girl and found none and i'm considering putting her DNA forward to try and do my bit to help.

Dogs are not listed as 'guilty by association' they are listed because of cases
that have been validated by the cardiologists as cardiomopathy.
Through thorough genetic research and analysis of pedigrees of dogs hence why
DNA, pedigrees amongst cardoplogy reports with all tests done on dogs and if post mortems
are performed those results are also collated.

The breed seminars about BCM were very informative.

There are many of us that may be affected by BCM over the coming years, all we can do is help out where necessary
by donating DNA, all reports from health tests/post mortems etc and
to try and guide people in the right direction for up to date information that is valid, and not hear say.
There are still some that do not believe re BCM and refute that there is such a problem within the breed.

If you read this weeks dog papers you will see an announcement in the breed notes re a stud that
withdrawn from stud due to BCM.

Dr Cattanach is your best bet for information regarding BCM.

thank you for clarifying Boxacrazy. :-)

ETA:
Our potential boy has now been withdrawn, i suspect he's the same dog you mentioned as being in the breed notes this week Boxacrazy.
I've emailed Dr Cattanach so hopefully he can shed some more light on this for me.

What a minefield.