Please help me, Im very distressed about what happened today and need feedback/advice/legal help.  This may be a long post but please read it all, Im sorry its so long.

I have a staffy male who I have worked very hard with for the last 5 years as he has aggression (fear based I think) problems.  Ive failed him badly, I thought I was doing so well but obviously not, as today he has attacked and seriously injured another dog. Here is his history.
5 years ago he attacked another dog, seriously and although the dog survived, it was touch and go for a while. I was devastated and broken hearted for the other dog, I kept in touch with the owner and paid a £900 vet bill, contacted the Dog Warden myself and asked advice, and did all I thought I should do.  For 3 years after this attack I kept Stavros on a lead and muzzled, and worked very hard with him to rehabilitate and retrain him.  It worked so well that we progressed to him being on a longline but not muzzled, only walking where very few other dogs would be.  This was only after 3 years of training.  For the last 2 years he has been gradually introduced to other dogs, within comfort levels of all dogs involved, with no incidences at all.

We then progressed to off-lead ball playing with a longline trailing, when no dogs were around.  Stavs has been fantastic, not reacting to any dogs, and SEEMED to be a changed boy.

Today this has all flown out of the window and Im in bits!

I was in the middle of a large field, playing with stavs, and saw a man walking towards us, so I called out to ask if he had a dog with him, so I could put stavs back onlead if he did. He said "No", so we carried on playing for a while. The field was still empty, the man went out of sight.  Some minutes later, I saw the man walking back across the field, and as stavs ran for his ball, suddenly a small dog appeared over a small slope in the field....it turned out it wasnt the same man as before, and this man had a dog!!

Stavs was too far away for me to grab and put onlead, and saw the dog as he was running for his ball.  He stopped, I called him back to me and he turned to make his way back (his recall is normally very good) then suddenly he hesitated, turned back to look at the dog running, and started running towards it.  I called him (much more firmly this time) and he again stopped, hesitated...then changed hs mind about coming back to me and ran at the dog.   It all then happened so fast, and he was on the dog!   I ran towards them, but fell over, and so shouted at the man to grab stavs, saying he wouldnt bite him. The man was obviously too afraid to do that though, which I understand, and he then started to hit stavs with his lead.  stavs stopped biting the other dog and ran back to me, I put him on his lead and went to see if the little dog was ok, it was crying and shaking, I felt so gutted for the dog, I hate seeing any animal in distress and this was all my doing!   The owner had the dog in his arms then and said the dog was bleeding and needed to go to the vets asap.

I gave the man my name and address and phone number and said I would pay any vets fees, and could he let me know how the dog was?   I went home and was physically sick, I felt sure stavs must have done serious damage, possibly even caused the dogs death.  Ive been in tears ever since, because I SHOULD NOT have ever trusted stavs in this way!  If only Id kept him muzzled and onlead like I used to!   I let my guard down, I WRONGLY thought he was rehabilitated. I took a chance, and Im ashamed at that.

Anyway, the owner phoned me tonight and said that the bleeding was coming from one small wound on the dogs throat, which I was shocked about as I fully expected there to be multiple bites.  That wound in itself is not serious. BUT the dog has a possible broken shoulder :(( that was why he was crying.  The vets said that wouldve been caused by the weight of my dog on such a smaller dog, because there are no bite marks on the shoulder, so its probably a case of stavs laying on the shoulder or pinning the dog down by it.  So, its injuries as far as "bite" marks are concerned is not as bad as I first thought.  One bite mark, means to me that Stavros didnt mean to hurt the dog as aggressively as the attack 5 years ago...but that doesnt lessen the fact that Stavs has jumped on this dogs shoulder and broken it!

The dog is staying in the vets and will be x-rayed tomorrow.  The thought of that dog in pain like that is horrible!

Ive telephoned the vets and given them all my details, and bank details so they can take out whatever the bill will cost, and they asked me for my address as they would inform the dog warden.  Im petrified about what might happen next!   As stavs has attcked before, even though it was 5 years ago, will they take him away to destroy him?   Or take him away and kennel him untill a courtcase, as he is of a "pitbull" type? (long-legged staffy).   I know about dogs that have been put into kennels waiting for courtcases, and these dogs have faired badly, some have even died waiting months in kennels.  I could not subject my dog to that.  It would mess him up too much, and he would be so miserable without me, he adores me and me him. 

Im broken hearted, for stavs (for letting him down so badly...and maybe causing him to be seized under the DDA....) for the other dog, for being responsible for his suffering and possible psychological damage to him, and the pain he must be in with his shoulder, poor boy.  And Im angry with myself, for letting my guard down and thinking I had solved stavs problems.  Now we are right back at the beginning, and worse!   Im ashamed to be one of those "bullbreed" owners who people say allow their dogs to run amok.   But thats what I am.  Stavs deserved better. 

Can the dog warden visit and, because its not the first time stavs has attacked, seize him?   And then theres the "of type" stuff with bullbreeds...so im worried about that too!

What do I do?   Should I contact the warden BEFORE he contacts me, and tell him my fears?  Or should I wait untill he calls here.  Should I allow him access, or will that mean he can seize Stavros?     Im phoning the vet again tomorrow to check on this little dog, he is on my mind all night.  I just dont know what else to do right now, Im in a state.  

You need to calm down and wait and see what the damage to the little dog really is.
Talk to the owner and find the true picture. If this is a decent person and his dog gets better, he may be understanding especially as you've agreed to pay costs.
Dont instigate any legal wheels in motion by phoning the dog warden and going off half cocked. Wait and see - be supportive to the dogs owner and calm down.
Things may look better in the morning - try to get some sleep and take one step at a time.

Thankyou tooolz.

Yep, I am in a state arnt I :(

I dont want to lose my dog, he is my life.  And I feel Ive let him down bigtime, I should know better as I work with dogs.

I guess Im just feeling like a crap owner right now, and worrying about whats going to happen.  As a bullbreed, I know the problems this could cause for him...it doesnt bare thinking about!

I deserve to feel worried like this though, Im an idiot.  If I hadnt thought I was the "big- I-am" as far as dog training goes, I wouldnt have known Stavs just wasnt ready for this..and maybe never will be!

I,ll be back to walking him with a muzzle now, forever.  I,ll never seconed-guess what he might do again, and cant take that chance.

5 years training down the drain, for what?  A 10 minute play with a ball?    Im gutted.  But wont ever trust him 100% again. Onlead and muzzled for life now, thats all I can do.

Thanks for your reply though...I dont feel quite so alone now.

Oh honey...

.......just breathe

It's all too raw and difficult for you to be making any decisions tonight.  Whatever you feel you could have done or should have done differently to prevent the incident all you can do now is wait and see what tomorrow brings.

I don't think there is any need for you to call the dog warden.  You can call the vets but I suggest waiting til a little later in the day when you are more likely to get a better picture of the treatment needed.  If you are able to visit the vets all the better as you will be able to humanise the situation too.  So far all the vet has is a bleeding dog being delivered to them by a distressed owner.  If you are able to demonstrate your level of care also it may help them to view the situation a little differently.

You may need to prepare for a difficult time; but not tonight, see how things are tomorrow. 

Legally -a dog attacked another dog. The Dangerous Dogs Act does NOT apply. It doesn't apply dog to dog. The only way it could apply would be if the little dog's owner reported you and said your dog scared HIM. That could at worst then lead to a courtcase etc but if it was proved your dog is friendly with people, the likelihood is you'd only be ordered to keep him muzzed on a lead. So, I would not worry too much about this particular part. If you are really worried, contact Trevor Cooper the dog law solicitor. He has a pay phoneline, all details on his website:
http://www.doglaw.co.uk/

As for the rest -you learnt a valuable lesson, and what's done is done. We can all make mistakes, the important thing is to learn from them and it's clear you have. You've done all you can for now. In future to play safe I would also keep him on a lead as as you have discovered a bigger dog can injure a smaller by sheer weight alone.

is he microchipped and castrated?

Are the vets legally allowed to pass your details onto the Dog Warden?
Under the data protection act I'm not sure that they are allowed to do so?

>Are the vets legally allowed to pass your details onto the Dog Warden?

The vet isn't even allowed to pass on details to the police without a) the owner's explicit consent and b) a written request from the police requiring the information.

Thanks for your replies. Yes he is chipped and neutered.

I kept waking up all through the night, this is all on my mind. 

No matter if stavs was muzzled or not, he could have still caused the damage he did. The main damage is not from a bite but from his weight on the other dog. So I will never ever be able to let him off lead again, 5 years of rehabilitation wiped out in a few seconds just because I was lax.  And an innocent little dog suffering to because of my irrisponsible ownership skills.  Im so very angry with myself.

Im expecting a knock on the door today from the Dog Warden, and Im scared.  I looked on the internet a lot last night and its confusing but I think the wardens can get a warrant (if no-one answers the door) and enter the premises even if no-one is at home, and take a dog they feel is of "type". 

I dont know if the vets are alowed to contact the warden, but the receptionist did ask for my address so she could inform the warden???  Do you mean that the owner of the dog is the only one who can report stavs?

sorry I was posting at the same time as you. 

So very nice to see a responsible owner and someone who really cares about the effect of a dog aggressive dogs actions.

Luckily the new dog acts have not been drawn up and legalised at present as otherwise your dog may well be in big, big, trouble, as it stands now dog on dog does not have such a traumatic effect on the aggressive dogs owner, if the man had been bitten it would be a completley different story.

You will have to keep your dog muzzled always from now on when out on walks, and preferably always on a long line, if not just a lead, but I guess you have learnt that the hard way.

I'd like to say a big thank you to you for being responsible in giving your name, address, and paying for the vet fees it makes an attack like this much easier to bare for the victims dogs owner, it will also go a long, long, way to any feeling of ill will, though the effects on a dog being attacked can cause continual mental anguish, for someone responsible like yourself I can see that goes both ways.

You know what you need to do now to prevent it ever happening again, I would be in bits too, if a dog of mine every did anything like that, just never trust again, your dog is safe from being seized, (this year) so you can relax, just be very careful from now one.

Thankyou for the link to Trevor Cooper, I wil study that and possibly contact him.

Ive also just checked my bank balance and have nowhere near as much ready cash in there as I thought, so doubt there will be enough to pay what I assume is going to be a hefty bill if the poor dog is having x rays, overnight stays and possibly surgery, so I will also enquire about a fast loan of some type to pay the vet. (Im not insured as I dont routinely vaccinate stavros, he was ill after one vaccination and I was mistrustfull of yearly vacs after that.  No vaccinations mean my insurance company wouldnt insure me again.)

I dont want the vets to try to take money from my account only to find there is not enough in there, as they might then think Im full of hot air and dont want to help, which isnt true at all.  I,ll sort that all out today.

This could all have been avoided if only I was more sensible :(    This is a hard lesson learned, but as always its the dogs who suffer, my stavs and this poor dog who may now have to undergo an op because of me.  Right, Im off to read some more on what to expect next.  Thankyou all very much. You have made me feel a little better.

sorry carrington, was crossposting at the same time as you.

Thankyou for your nice words, although I dont feel I deserve them.  You are all very kind on here and I appreciate the help you are giving me.

I am so sorry to hear what your going through and having a large breed fear aggresive dog my self it has made it hit home even harder the danger they can pose.
Please do not be so hard on yourself though as you are obviously a very good responsible owner.
I had one of my CKCS suffer permanent Spine damage when a friendly lab put its paw on her in play.  That has left me so aware of what even friendly large dogs can do to little ones.
I hope this little dog is ok.
I'm not sure what area you are in but I have managed to get a landowner with large fenced off areas (was used for greyhounds and includes a 3.5acre fully fenced field) to now let the areas out to dog owners who for one reason or another cannot let thier dogs off in public places.  that way the dog still gets plenty of running and playing without the worry of other dogs around or appearing.
If you are near me I can give details to you if not why not ask around your area.  I drive about 10 miles for use of this facility and it is brilliant.

Gosh you are being terribly hard on yourself.  Rest assured, you are a responsible owner and a good person - it took a split second for something to go wrong, thats all.  You did absolutely everything right on the lead up to this incident, but a situation occurred which was beyond your control.  Put it down to experience hun.

I own a little dog, and if Stavs had attacked and injured her I would be stunned and devastated (and probably sobbing like a girl, like I did when a JRT mauled her last week) - but if you had rushed over to check how badly hurt she was, and offered to pay the bills, and been absolutely distraught that your dog had injured mine, I would have simply been grateful for your support!!

I know we live in a "blame culture" and there are a huge number of people who are quick to blame and criticise and sue for their own gain and satisfaction.  But equally, there are just as many who DO NOT blame for the sake of it.  There are still some people in the world who are calm, forgiving and accepting of the hand that life occasionally deals us.  It was an accident, you were not behaving irresponsibly.

Poor old Stavs, sounds like he needs to be muzzled and stay on a long lead for a while if out in public!  Did you say whether or not you've had professional help for him?

Anyway, in the meantime I do hope the little dog recovers okay (I'm sure he will), and I hope you can find somewhere safe and enclosed to let Stavs have a run every so often. 

All the best and stop beating yourself up.  S x

So sorry to hear what has happand .I know how you are felling as I had an incident this week, (see my post here. http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/board/topic/110813.html
It was no where near  as bad as yours but I felt so guilty and upset. The only thing I can think of in your case is that the other dog was showing dominance and your dog will not except dominance from another dog. I hope the little dog will be OK, don't worry to much, you have done all you can and like in my post it was one of  thoses things that just happened out of the blue, you can bet I wont let my dog off the lead again, even though I will miss seeing him run and play with my other dog. Lets hope this will all be over soon and you can move on and not blame your self to much. You had no idea it would happen , you thought he would be OK, so you couldn't have know what was on his mind, we cant all get it right , a dog has a mind of its own and no one can be shore what his or her pet will do . All we can do is make shore it dose not happen again. Good luck hun and try not to worry to much

First of all stay calm and try not to work yourself up over this.  You will not lose your dog and he will not be pts.

I have a friend who is a dog warden and like she says if a dog attacks another dog there is nothing anyone can do about it (with regards to having a dog pts) they can send you a letter to warn you about your dogs behaviour and they can order your dog to be onlead and muzzled when in public.  If a person was injured in the attack, even accidently by them putting their hand in to stop it then yes your dog could be pts for it.

Recently a Staffie killed a friends Yorkshire Terrier while she was walking it for her elderly mother...the dog who attacked was offlead and not under control, after the attack the owner walked away.  They were found and the owner has been given an order to keep the dog muzzled and onlead at all times.

It is a terrible thing to happen but you have done all you can to help the owner, you have offered to pay the bills and given them your details...this is more than most would do.

However much rehabilitation you do, like you say keep him onlead from now on so no more incidents can take place.

You have been responsible in your actions after the attack has taken place so please don't beat yourself up about it now and remember not to be angry or upset at your boy.

You know, dogs do scrap and dogs do fight and you made a small error of judgement and the consequences unfortunately severely outweighed that! You have been very responsible. Tell the vets to send you a bill - but be careful you don't get milked over the whole thing. Yes, you made a mistake but nobody died. Well done you for taking responsibility. Oh, the vets can't just take money out of your account, they will need to take it via a cash card or whatever.

Just read this post poor you. You are a reasonable owner, Stav is lucky that you have tried so hard. You know he will always be muzzled outside now, its not the end of the world.
Get over this scare take a deep breath, meet the mans dog bills somehow and chalk this up to experiance.
Im sure that the dog warden will not sieze Stav after 5 years he is not a Dangerous Dog, he is aggressive but that can be controlled with a muzzle, I dont think you can be a dangerous dog by leaning heavily on another one!
Good luck for a good result on this one.

God you are all so kind, some of your posts have had me in tears, I think I must be feeling very emotional today.

I do feel I have to be hard on myself though, this 100% could have been avoided.  Even though it was 5 years ago since Stavs first attack, I should never have been so casual about other dogs safety, I saw the damage stavs did that time and its only by the grace of god that it wasnt fatal.  I know this attack wasnt as bad bite-wise, but because of my actions (or lack of them) another dog is now in the vets, in pain, and another family are going through worry.  There are no excuses for that, none.

Had I been in total control of stavs, this wouldnt have happened.  The other dog wasnt giving off any dominance signals or being provocative in any way, it was just enjoying a walk and minding its own business.  Stavs attacked for no reason, out of the blue.

The only good that I can gleam from all this is that stavs didnt "savage" the dog or bite multiple times.  I know that if stavs wanted to he could have killed the dog in a nano-second.  The main injury is the leaning or pinning of the dog. I guess if the dog had been bigger then that injury wouldnt have happened?  That in itself shows that stavs rehabilitation has worked somewhat, as last time I had to prize him off the dog and it was horrific.  I guess Im shocked too that stavs hesitated, thought about it, then still attacked the dog though. His recall is usually fantastic and if I had called him to me any other time he would have listened at once, but I guess this time he was just a little too fired up to obey me?

Ive sorted finance out and money will be in my account later today, so at least thats something. Ive read the Trevor Cooper site and feel a little better, although Its been a huge wake-up call as, like one poster pointed out, if this had happened next year, stavs would have been in huge trouble. I can never ever let my guard down again.  I said that after the first attack though :( and still did.  I got complacent, but I promise I wont ever get like that again.

Ive just tried stavs old muzzle on him and it doesnt fit, so I will need to go online and get a new muzzle. Untill then, I,ll either not walk him (he may need a few days time-out anyway, I know dogs adrenalin levels stay raised for days after and he may need to just chill out for a few days.)  Im just angry with myself for taking a chance like I did.  Ive worked very hard with stavs, he had a lot of problems and Ive seen behaviourists, learned TTouch, use zylklene for noise phobia, and apart from yesterday he has been amazing. I love him so much, and the thought that this could have all turned out so differently makes me feel sick, but all I can do now is learn from this, again! and be thankfull it wasnt worse than it is.

Ive called the vets again this morning but they wont give me any details untill theyve rang the owner and asked him if they can tell me. I rang the owner but there is no reply, I,ll try again this afternoon.

Does anyone know somewhere that makes muzzles for staffies please?  I had such a hard time getting a muzzle for stavs last time, his head is quite small for a staff and normal staffy muzzles are too big, other types are too small, so its a problem :(  Having said that, this at least shows people that a dog can seriously harm another dog even if muzzled, so care still needs to be taken.  Sorry, Im going all off on a tangent, my minds racing around a lot...

Can someone also tell me what the treatment would be for a possible broken shoulder?  Im hoping the shoulder is maybe dislocated or cracked or somethging so the dogs recovery time wont be so stressfull for him, but if its broken then thats going to be a lot of stress and vets visits and time for him to recover isnt it?  Not to mention the psychological damage to the poor little thing.  This might make him fear aggressive too now, thats what happened to my stavs because he was attacked, it has a knock-on affect doesnt it.

Im so glad I posted here last night, I was in such a state, and you are all so kind. I expected to be ripped into for having an out of control dog, I wouldnt have blamed anyone for tearing me off a huge strip. At the end of the day, if I hadnt been careless, it wouldnt have happened.  You have all helped me enormously, and I thankyou for that.

Hi Stavs

I just wanted to add a little moral support in this worrying time :)

You haven't behaved irresponsibly at all IMO - you had a genuine belief that Stavros was rehabilitated in so far as other dogs were concerned and that your level of recall when he was off lead was good enough to prevent incidents.  It's only by testing recall in a gazillion situations with unexpected distractions that anyone can truly assess how reliable theirs (or rather their dog's) is.  You misjudged it - a small mistake which although followed by larger consequences was simple human error and one which any one of us could easily make with the best (seemingly) trained dog in the world.

I'm sure that however distressed the other owner is they will appreciate your efforts to put things right :)  Some less caring and responsible people would cut and run at the first sign of their dog causing trouble and certainly some others wouldn't consider giving contact details in case faced with a large bill.  Please God the little dog will soon be fully recovered and your mind set at rest too.

FWIW fractures/breaks through rough play between amiable dogs of different size and substance are probably not uncommon - one of my bitches had a best friend in an Irish Wolfhound pup the same age as her but CONSIDERABLY bigger, heavier, clumsier LOL.  How she didn't end up in traction was down to a mixture of agility and wings on prayers (recall? not a hope with either of them if one saw the other on the horizon before the owners did :-p )

Try not to be over anxious and give yourself and Stav a hug from forum friends :)

I think you have been very responsible, it's obvious that you would not have let Stavs run loose if you thought he would go after another dog. Unfortunately he has proved that his re-call is not what you thought it was the only way forward now is to keep him on a lead/long-line while out.

I've had a dog-aggressive dog in the past and know what it feels like when your dog has caused damage to another - it's a horrible feeling :(

>Does anyone know somewhere that makes muzzles for staffies please?

having a quick look online I found an American company. There must be places in the UK that do made to measure muzzles though.

I'm in absolute agreement with the posters that have said you are a responsible dog owner...but you are being dreadfully hard on yourself.

Your dog will not be pts and you are taking all the right steps in making things better..ie taking your dog out muzzled etc.

Just try to remain calm..the mans dog is getting the best care and it seems that he is making no demands re legal action etc and sounds like he is an approachable sort of chap if you have any other concerns.

Call the vets and ask for a quote and update..if you are in contact with them they will know that you are serious about settling the account...if you cant settle it all in one go then ask if you can pay in instalments which i'm sure they would agree to...i've just had to do this with my own vets due to huge bill and having a dog thats uninsurable.

Best wishes

Annee

> (Im not insured as I dont routinely vaccinate stavros, he was ill after one vaccination and I was mistrustfull of yearly vacs after that.  No vaccinations mean my insurance company wouldnt insure me again.)

you could try your household insurance as there is often 3rd party insurance incorporated into that depending on your policy.  the only thing that might be an issue is that he has attacked before and I noticed that all the recent pet insurance quotes I got recently asked if the dog has ever been aggressive.

I have a staffy that can at times be aggressive so know how you're feeling at the moment.  It is not a nice place to be but I do feel that you are being too hard on yourself.  Your judgement lapsed but you have learned from it.  If stavros was fully rehabilitated and you kept him on a short lead for the rest of his life you would have been doing him a dis-service, you need to take calculated risks in life and learn from them.

Compnay of animals do the baskerville muzzles - in wider fittings too.
Size 12 fits a Boxer.

http://www.companyofanimals.co.uk/baskerville.php

Hi Stavs,

We all make mistakes every single one of us, so you are not unique. You were unlucky not irresponsible. You need now to turn this experience into a positive. You've learned an extremely valuable lesson and that is that your dog cannot be let off lead- a pain but not impossible. The way you learned this lesson could have had much worse consequences: death of little dog, your dog PTS, person badly injured.

Dogs do fight and they do use their teeth, had these two been of the same size the damage would have been much, much less (I'm not condoning aggression you understand). The point I'm trying to make is that the behaviour was not totally uncharacteristic, it's the size difference that is the problem and I think this is something all us dog owners have to be aware of all the time. My lad has suffered a leg injury from boisterous play with a much larger breed and I could have avoided that if I'd thought.

Finally, if you are able to talk to the owner of the injured dog you can continue to offer your support. I don't think you can do more than that.

I think after 5 years of training, prob less, I would have done the same and assumed all would be ok.

Its good to hear form the other side of things though, my dog is submissive to ALL other dogs, I often worry he will get attacked, I put him on the lead soon as I see another dog, especially a big one, Ive had dogs grow and snap at him but hes by myside on his lead so they get a swift boot!  I think their owners are irisponsible, I dont think you were, you were watching out for other dogs, you just got caught out, it happens!

Hi again,

Hopefully we have all put you at ease now that Stav won't be taken from you. :-)

But, can I just pick up on this point for you.

(Im not insured as I dont routinely vaccinate stavros, he was ill after one vaccination and I was mistrustfull of yearly vacs after that.  No

This is not uncommon for a dog to have a reaction to a booster or first vaccinations, it happened to my nephew the first vaccine no probs but a year later his dog had his booster and was effected so badly he needed to be carried out of the vets, he also stayed very lethargic for approx 24 hours then was back to his old self.

From what I understand there are 2 main, (or just 2) manufacturers of the vaccines that we use,  if one of these affected your dog badly, you can request the other one, or go to a different vet who uses the other vaccine, all you need to do is contact your vet to see what was used and go from there, at least then you can have insurance again and avoid the horrendous vet bills. :-)

I believe many insurance companies will still cover your dog if you don't vaccinate, they just won't cover you for the diseases you could have vaccinated against. You can also get 3rd party only insurance which is much cheaper and wouldn't be affected by vaccinating. It may be too late for that now but worth thinking about in the future.

My dog was at the receiving end of an attack yesterday, but by a much smaller dog than him, so he got off very lightly.
The other dog a bitch terrier had been chasing a cat when she saw my dog running, and started to chase him instead.
At first i thought it was just normal dogs chasing games, but when she caught up with him she nipped his backside so he yelped and ran away. She then became very angry and started to snarl and snap chasing after him quite viciously. I called him to me, and he came, i caught hold of him and expected her owner to get her back, too, but when she caught her dog her hand was bitten quite badly, so she let it go again.
The bitch was still snarling and trying to get my dog, then she started biting his bum again and so i ended up pinning her to the ground until her owner caught hold of her. All this time i was keeping hold of my dog (a powerful lab collie cross), so i ended up slipping over and hurting my knee and my hand.
At the end of all this, the owner of the other dog thanked me for stopping the attack and catching her dog, told me that 'she gets a bit excited when she's chasing cats' and walked off, her dog snapping and snarling on the end of the lead as she walked along (dripping blood from her bitten hand).
I was very shaken up by the whole incident and didn't take her name and address, and she certainly wasn't offering it.
Today my dog has a very sore backside, and is feeling rather sorry for himself, and so am I, but i've just put it down to experience. If we end up at the vets for antibiotics or whatever, i will have to pay. The dog warden has told me that dog on dog attacks are not really any concern of theirs, which i already knew, though i am concerned this bitch could have its prey drive activated by a child running past, just as easily as another dog.
All in all, this is the type of irresponsible behaviour many dog owners show (unmuzzled, aggressive dog with misplaced prey drive), whereas you have absolutely done your best and shown yourself completely responsible, so I am sure you will not have any repercussions from this.
The other owner will have been really shaken up by this, but when they talk to you afterwards they will realise that you have done all you could to repair the damage and are being responsible in how you treat your dog from now on. Well done for facing up to it all.

i just wanted to add to what the others have said and give you my support. you had worked hard for 5 years with your boy and had dared to hope, there is nothing wrong or negligent in what you did.

> Im so glad I posted here last night, I was in such a state, and you are all so kind. I expected to be ripped into for having an out of control dog, I wouldnt have blamed anyone for tearing me off a huge strip. At the end of the day, if I hadnt been careless, it wouldnt have happened.

if you had a poorly trained, out of control animal who you'd trained to be provacative then maybe. you are a genuine owner who is doing their very best to take care of your boy and other people.

i am sure the other dog will be fine and i hope its owners will be understanding. these things can happen sometimes, despite our best efforts.

> This might make him fear aggressive too now, thats what happened to my stavs because he was attacked, it has a knock-on affect doesnt it.
>

our behaviourist was telling me that they have drugs now that if administered after such an incident it stops the dog forming a real memory of the incident and so prevents such aggession taking root. hopefully they used something like this.

i'll say don't beat yourself up to much but i know it doesn't work like that. thinking of you though.

Stavs,
I work within a Local authority service which houses the Dog Wardens. Our Dog Wardens DO NOT take away any animal unless it is a stray. They DO NOT take away aggressive or noisy or any dog due to 'behaviour' issues.

Aggressive dogs would only be taken by the police, after a complaint had been made and witness statements taken. (You would have heard from them by now if this was the case)
The dog would then be kennelled for some weeks or months and the case put to the Courts to decide an outcome. All parties would be able to plead their case and a decision made. It would have to be an extreme case for all this to happen (for instance if the dog had attacked a person)

I am pretty sure this is the same for most Local Authorities.

PLEASE feel assured that you will not lose your dog. You are obviously an extremely caring owner who has tried to help and nurture a dog  many others would have given up on.

As a dog owner who has had a dog on the receiving end of an attack, I put this down to simply the nature of dogs and did not blame the distraught owner or the dog.

Best of luck.

Once again, many many thanks to all of you who have taken the time and trouble to provide links re muzzles, legal advice, and for easing my mind about where I stand legally with Stavros.  You have helped me beyond what I can write here, and I dont know what state I would be in by now if I hadnt found my way here, thankyou all of you!

Ive managed to find out a lot about the little dog this afternoon, quite by accident really!  I phoned the vets again this afternoon as the owner isnt answering any calls and I wanted to find out how the dogs x rays went etc..  I spoke to a receptionist and said I was caling to find out how Prince (the dog) was doing, and she went off to find out. When she came back she said "Prince is doing fine, hes quite happy and is a lovely little thing isnt he?  Hes very bright in his-self, and seems comfortable, if a little sore.  He,ll be having his pain relief and another anti-biotic shot this afternoon and we,ll be sending him home with a course of anti-biotics and some metacam, so he,ll probably be ready for you to collect around 4ish" !!!     She thought I was the owner!   I said "Im not the owner, Im the owner of the dog that attacked Prince" and then her attitude changed a bit, I think she realised she shouldnt have given me his medical update like that?   I asked what his x rays showed, and she said she couldnt tell me that, obviously.   But surely, if his shoulder is broken he wouldnt be being sent home?  Hopefully?  

Im hoping that means that there is no break after all, and that maybe he was just bruised or possibly a dislocated shoulder, or a crack, or something?   Wouldnt he be kept in longer and not just sent home with pain killers and a course of antibiotics, if his shoulder was broken?  I so hope Im right, and that he was just bruised, at least that means his recovery will be faster.  Anyway, either way it sounds as if he is ok, and not as injured as I thought, which is a blessing.   It could have been so much worse.  The bill is being sent direct to my address for me to settle, but I dont know yet how much that will be, but whatever it costs I think we,ve all had a lucky escape really.

Ive tried again to call the owner just now, but theres still no reply, so I guess they are either collecting Prince, or out somewhere.  I dont know if I should keep ringing or wait for them to call me?

Ive also gotten Insurance this afternoon, so thanks for the advice about that too :)  Im not covered for any illness that would be a direct link to vaccine-related stuff, but thats fine.  I didnt even know I could get insurance if my dog wasnt vaccinated, so again youve been a great help to me, thanks.

And, best of all, a friend of a friend has agreed to let me use their fields to excersise Stavs in!!  They own a farm, and have lots of empty, safe areas I can take stavs to where there will never be other dogs, or livestock, or even people!  Its a 50 minute drive away but I dont care about that, Im just greatfull I have somewhere stavs can play and run without fear of any other dogs around, its not a public walkway or anything and the owner said there will be no-one for miles around, so what a big relief that is!  I wont be able to afford petrol to go everyday, but if I go around 3 times a week at least stavs will have some run-time.  Im quite excited really, lol...I thought I could even take a picnic in the summer, stay out a few hours, set up some pretend agility stuff or something so stavs doesnt get bored, and I can practice lots of training in a relaxing environment.

Ive kept stavs in today, he didnt mind really, lol he just stretched out in front of the fire all day.  I always walked him and my other dog separately anyway because I feel they need one on one time with me, especially stavs, so he didnt even care that I went out with Lola without him.  I think I will probably keep him in untill his new muzzle comes, providing it fits!  I think I will very likely muzzle him even when in the field, I,ll be paranoid I think, that a dog may appear from miles away before I get to see them, lol.  It will mean stavs cant play ball, which he totally loves and is obsessed with, but at least he can still run, and play, and maybe do some agility or training in that field while muzzled.

I thought he would be climbing the walls to go out today, but he is so chilled, led by the fire, I think he probably needed some relaxing time to get over this, Im sure he was affected by it all to.  I never told him off or punished him, it was my fault not his, but he obviously picked up on my upset, tone of voice when talking about it to people, and he definately knew when I was crying, as did Lola. They both came over to me and "comforted" me, aww bless em!

So. What next do you think?  Should I continue to phone the owner?  Should I call the vets back in the morning to see if Prince has been allowed home?   I dont want to make a nusance of myself, but I would like to know the results of Princes x rays and how hes fairing.
Thanks again everyone.  What a great site this is.  Arnt dog owners the best!? :))

You sound so much happier and thats great.

I would try and leave a message for the owner if he has a voicemail otherwise if you have his address then maybe just send him a few lines in a card.,

I wouldn't call the vets again...just wait for their corrospondence re the account, the dog sounds like it was bruised but when the account arrives it sould all be itemized so you could see what prince had done.

Re the field...wow..that really is very good news, Stavros's own play area :0)

Thank you for the update.

> 5 years training down the drain, for what?  A 10 minute play with a ball?    Im gutted.  But wont ever trust him 100% again. Onlead and muzzled for life now, thats all I can do.
>

I just want to comment on the above statement first.  You spent 5 HARD years of training, and you accomplished a lot.  From what I have read, your dog 5 years ago SERIOUSLY attacked another dog.  This time, it seems that since there was only one bite mark, and a broken shoulder, that it was not an aggression per say.  If it was true aggression, you would have seen a similar if not worse attack as what happened 5 years ago.  Your training and hard work, has made it possible that your dog was able to go off leash and without a muzzle, and this being the first instance of a bad situation in 5 years.  So props to you and all your hard work.  That shouldnt be denied. 

You have taken steps, which in my opinion are excellent.  You worked very hard to rehab your dog, and then when a horrible situation like this happens, you are being very responsible by providing your name, address, and phone number, along with paying the vet fees.  You are trying to make this right. 

I honestly wish, there were MORE dog owners like yourself.  Yes, looking back there are things that could have been changed, but there is nothing now you can do about what happened, you can only focus on what is happening. 

I feel for you and your situation.  I have been there, with my dog attacked by another dog, and if the dog owner of the other dog was half like you, it would have made the situation easier to live with.  (My dog survived, but we lost a litter and she had a lot of bite wounds, and scars that ended her show career). 

Take time, to take care of yourself.  ((((((hugs)))))))  You are doing everything, and more, that you could do to help the owner of the dog that is injured.  I commend you on that. 

Thankyou Crespin, that was a very lovely post. 

That has actually made me more aware of just how far Stavs has come.  5 years ago, and given the size difference in Stavs and Prince, Prince likely wouldnt have survived.  :(   The attack 5 years ago was full-on and horrific, multiple bites, a punctured lung, and the loss of an eye.  And that was to a dog not much smaller than Stavs.  Just writing about it now makes me feel ill.  So Ive no doubt that if Stavs wanted to cause severe injury to Prince, that would have happened in a heartbeat.  I guess when I look at it like that, Stavs showed remarkable restraint and bite inhibition yesterday.  And probably, seeing Stavs on the dog yesterday brought all that back and thats why I felt so sick.  Prince had a lucky escape, but I shouldnt play russian roulette with someone elses dog and will make sure no chances are ever taken like that again.  I,ll never know just why it happened, after 5 years of rehab training and 2 years of unmuzzled interaction with other dogs, albiet at a "safe" distance...but second-guessing isnt going to turn the clock back now.

Im just happy Prince assumingly isnt as hurt as I thought.  And I think I may have been a bit hard on Stavs, when I said it was all down the drain, as he obviously has learned SOMETHING in those years, otherwise Prince surely wouldnt have survived.  It does go to show though, our dogs are not robots and no matter how much training we do or how well we think we know them, we should expect the unexpected.  Im not going to let this affect Stavs any more than it has done already, I dont want to pass my anxiety onto him and make everytime we leave the house stressfull for him by me being afraid or jumpy all the time, but I will be extra vigilant and carefull (in as relaxed a way as possible, if possible).   I think when walking any dog, but especially a large or powerfull breed, you have to think of it as taking a loaded gun out with you...safe in the right hands but if misused or used carelessly, potentially lethal.  I will just make sure that the "safety catch" is always on my gun in future.  I will only run Stavs in the private secure field of my friends friend, where I can be 100% certain there will NEVER be another dog (apart from Lola of course. Stavs and Lola never fight, they do grumble at eachother sometimes but in all the years Ive had them, they have never had one single fight, not even at the height of Stavs problems. Lo is a staffy too and loves all other dogs, at the moment they are asleep in one small bed together, all squashed in and leaving 2 large beds empty, lol. )   I will also always always have Stavs muzzled while road walking in public, and on a lead if theres even a sniff of another dog for miles around!

I wont call the vets again tomorrow (I was going to, if I hadnt heard from the owner, in the hope they may give me the owners address so I could at least drop some treats or toys in to say sorry to Prince, but I know they wont do that will they? ) as I dont want to be a nusance, Ive again called the owner tonight but they still arnt picking up, so I,ll just wait to hear from them, and wait for the bill.  

I know I keep saying this, but really, I dont know what I would have done without you all and your support. You dont know me from Adam yet you have supported me and made me feel as if you care, and I appreciate that more than I can say.  Thankyou, so much, all of you.

Crespin...what a great statement !

I couldn't add anymore..i think as a dog owner she's being great :)

Thanks annee :)))

I am glad its all worked out ok, and very happy to hear the little dog is OK. You will have to go camping in the field in the summer I bet the dogs will love that. :)

I've found you 24hrs later in a much better frame of mind...thank goodness :-)

I hope everything pans out well for you in the next few weeks.

I do think you are being totally amazing as a dog owner, because you are so open and supportive of the other owner of Prince.

One thing I'd just suggest, do you think it may have been the ball that caused the problem? would Stavs have thought the other dog was going to get it before him? Although I am a big supporter of using toys, kongs on ropes, balls etc I have also noticed that raised adrenalin levels can cause dogs to over react (I learnt about this with my own dog  ... this didn't actually look as if it was caused by ball use because she would actually allow other dogs to take her toy - but it was when they approached or we stopped to chat that she would start to get ancy. Now with less actual toy throwing and some work, she's totally fine with other dogs).

I'm not saying it  is this, f course - it may not be anything to do with it; and I do think you should continue to play in this way with Stavs. Perhaps you could train a chase recall (using 2 toys, calling him from the less exciting one and rewarding when he does this with his more fav., one) as this can then be used to call him away from other dogs also if done well and to an advanced level :) which will help to give a bit more confidence in case you ever need an emergency kind of command.

Sorry I'm in a terrible hurry but hope you get my drift :)

Thanks Lindsay, and yes I do get your drift :) and I think its a really good idea.

Stavs does a leave command really well, and even though hes so ball obsessed I can shout "Leave it" as hes running for a ball, and he will stop and leave it straight away, then wait for me to say "Go on then" before he carries on running to get the ball (what a pity he didnt listen that day!!)   So I know he can do this.

Ive gone over and over in my mind why on this day, in that situation, he reacted like he did, but I just cant understand it.  It all happened so fast, and Im remembering small details that I havnt thought about before, I know it couldve been just one small detail that changed the course of things that day.   Prince suddenly appeared over a small slope, so one second there was no dog in sight, the next second there was.  But Prince wasnt running TOWARDS us or the ball.  Its kind of hard to explain, but theres a small dip and slope, and the man was walking along the top of it, at a right angle to us so was easy to spot. Prince must have been running along the little dip behind the man, out of sight, then popped up the slope so he was then running behind the man. Im not good with distances or maths, but Id guess they were around 50 feet away, probably more.  As Prince came over the dip, he wouldve been directly opposite Stavs, in his eyeline as he ran for his ball.   Stavs spotted him, and stopped running.  Prince spotted Stavs, and briefly stopped running too, but only for a split second, so that they were looking at eachother, then Prince turned and carried on running after his owner.  Not towards us, but along the front of us (I hope this is making sense) and away from us.  That was when Stavs started running towards Prince again.  I called him again, he stopped again and turned as if to make his way back to his ball and me.  But when I called Stavs, Prince stopped again very briefly and watched Stavs.  The owner called Prince, and he carried on running then.  It was then that Stavs kind of looked at the dog, then back at me, then ran back towards the dog.
So Prince wouldnt have been looking as if he was running at Stavs ball, or anywhere near it.  Maybe that few seconds of eye contact, or Prince then running away from Stavs, then stopping and looking at him again before running on, activated Stavs prey drive?  Maybe if Prince had just stayed still it wouldve been different?  Or maybe if Prince had just carried on running and it was BECAUSE he stopped and looked at Stavs that set him off?  I simply dont know.

Ive studied Turid Rugaas and body language, calming signals etc, and Prince was definately not giving out any dominanace signals or being challenging in any way. Unless the direct eye contact was percieved by Stavs as being a threat, but I cant understand how, as we were not near enough for intense eye contact or anything. It was just a curious little look by Prince, before he ran back off.

Stavs is totally ball obsessed, its all he wants to do, play with his ball and be left alone by other dogs, so I would undertsand his reaction if Prince had made a run for his ball, or ran over to Stavs and pestered him when all he wanted was to be left in peace to play, but none of that happened?    Something similar happened a little while back, Stavs was playing with his ball and an offlead dog went out of his way to run quite some distance up to Stavs, even though I called out to the owner that Stavs liked his own space.  This dog got right into Stavs personal space, sniffing his bum and holding his tail very high and straight...Stavs basically said "Get lost", which I feel he was in his rights to do, but thats all he did. The dog then ran back off, Stavs just wanted it to leave him to play with his ball.

This wasnt like that at all though?   Im pretty stumped.

Thankyou vinya and tooolz :)

Yes Im in a much better frame of mind today, thanks.  Just trying to get straight in my head why this happened.
Stavs is restless today, I know he SO wants to go out for a walk bless him.  Im not comfortable even thinking of lead walking him on the roads without a muzzle though.  Im going to call a mate of mine who has a vast array of muzzles in a minute, will try some on Stavs to see if any fit so I can at least walk him around the streets.  I know I should be able to road walk him onlead and everyone should be safe, but I dont want to even take a chance that a dog could run out of a garden or something...Id feel much more relaxed if Stavs was muzzled before I even set foot out of the door.  Besides, where I live there are lots of idiots (all with staffys unfortunately) who hang around without even having their dog on a lead (and next to a main road to!!!), and anything could happen.  I,ll go call my mate now actually.  Thanks again all. :)

From what you are saying i think your dog transferred his prey drive excitement from the ball to the other little dog. When the other dog appeared to run off this made your dog chase him. When he got to him and attacked him though, he must have realised it was another dog, not prey, so shouldn't be attacked, which is maybe why he didn't do too much damage. If you walk him on a lead (as you have said) where other dogs might be running around or if you manage to get a muzzle, this can't happen again. It is interesting that he just warned off the dog that came right up to him, and didn't chase after him, this seems to show that he understood that as a dog-dog interaction, so not dog-prey, i think it was most probably the little dog running off that caused the reaction.

I just want to say I wish all owners were as responsible and hard working as you! If you can't get an answer by phone from the owner, perhaps you could write to the vet and ask them to forward the letter on, then you can explain you're not trying to stalk them, you just feel very worried and interested in the progress of little Prince.

Yes RReeve, I think you are probably right there.  Its the only thing I can think of as to why stavs suddenly gave chase and went for Prince.  When another dog approaches him, he doesnt like it but only tells them to go away..he doesnt "attack".  The dog then usually goes away and stavs job is done, he just wants to be left alone.  This exact thing happened only this morning.  I cut through the park on my way to visit a friend, with stavs on his lead and muzzled.  The park was practically empty, but a Lab did go out of his way to run over to us (not in a nasty way at all, a young dog just wanting to say hello.  It still amazes me though that people allow their dogs to run up to other dogs on a lead!!  I would do all I could to avoid my dog running up to an onlead dog, that dog is on lead for a reason, be it they are aggressive, recovering from an op, old, or whatever. )

From the distance the owner was, she couldnt have possibly seen that stavs was muzzled, yet still did nothing to get her dog back!  The dog ran around stavs a few times, stavs was uncomfortable and kept trying to watch the dog as we walked on, then the dog stopped right nose-to-nose with stavs.  Stavs grumbled at it and told it to get lost, and then it ran off.  But Im confident that even if stavs wasnt on a lead then, he wouldnt of chased after the dog..there was no straining at the lead or lunging or anything.

To be honest, people letting their dogs run up to us was the bain of my life while trying to rehabilitate stavs :(  So many times we had made progress and that progress was undone in a second by an off lead dog.  Im not in a position to throw accusations at people, our dogs are not all recall perfect 100% and I know this more than most now, this wouldnt have happened to Prince if stavs had recalled straight away, but if youve got a dog that is likely to run up to another dog thats on a lead, put your dog on its lead untill the onlead dog has passed!  Lola is brilliant with all other dogs, but her recall isnt as good as stavs (usually! Up untill that day!:( ... ) is.  People do get worried to see a bounding staffy running towards them, and I understand that, so will put Lo on a lead if theres another dog passing on its lead.

Ive sent an e.mail to the vets so they will get it on Monday morning, asking for the owners addrerss details, and asking if I could possibly pay the bill in installments, although I doubt they will let me.  Ive also asked for a fully itemised bill to be sent to me before I pay it, the vets seem to want me to pay by card over the phone, but I d like to see exactly what Im paying for.  Im also going to send the owners a little letter (if I can get their address), seeing as I cant get them by phone.

Thanks LucyDogs :)  I dont feel very responsible as an owner to be honest, if I was this would have been totally avoidable, but Im not being so hard on myself as I was, lol...Ive learned a valuable lesson, that no matter how far I think we,ve come, or how good stavs recall usually is, the unexpected can and does happen.  I just have to do all I can to make sure it never happens again. Stavs will always, without fail, be muzzled outside now.  Even though that wouldnt have stopped Princes shoulder injury, I,ll still muzzle all the time, and also I,ll now be extra carefull around small dogs that could be hurt by the weight of stavs, and will avoid them like the plague, lol.

Thanks for your kind words. x

Hi,

Glad you are feeling up bit more up now.

First, I too think the Prince issue was about prey drive. Sounds like each time Prince stopped Stavs stopped and then any movement and game on again. Also, Stavs was in that mode because he was high from chasing a ball. It is interesting that on contact with Prince he didn't shake and kill his prey. So it does sound as though you have made great progress in your work with Stavs. Something stopped him from carrying through after the chase. Still, sounds like you have two issues, one is dog aggression as a result of being attacked, the other is prey drive. I think Lindsay's advice about using two balls is great. It's one I've used myself with good results. However, I guess furry prey that runs is sometimes likely to be too much of a temptation and that's a pain for you.

Second, I echo your sentiments about dogs on leads. I've said many times that any dog is on a lead for a reason and other dog owners must control their offlead dogs. The psychological damage to a dog that is provoked into a fight when on the lead can be enormous and takes ages to undo.

You did all you could and more since the first attack. I would think the owner of the other dog is distressed and upset as you can expect really. So maybe its best they are not speaking as it could cause friction/more upset on both sides. And both of you have had enough of that for this 2009 I imagine.

Maybe a letter through the vets would be a good option. Ask them to pass it on. I agree with the "invoiced detailed" account.

To be honest I would be doing the same as you are....worrying like crazy. the field is a brilliant find well done. I would go back to basics for yourself more than Stav, as your confidence needs to be rebuilt...from scratch I would think, as your worry/nerves could transmit to Stav and make him more "on his toes" than he would be normaly.  
The muzzle is a really good idea it gives you peace/security of mind which is what you need. Yes what has happened is a tragedy and really sad for the other dogs family.....but you have done all you can, even the most "chilled" dogs get into scuffles which sounds like this was, but you have dealt with it aove and beyond.

You are a credit to the breed in the way you have dealt with the whole situation, there is no such thing as a typical Stafford owner...but if there were you would be it responsible and caring. Good on you. Karen

OMG, Thanks SO much Kazz! That really made me feel good!  That was a lovely thing to say!
Im always so aware of the image of what some would think as "typical" staffy owners.  One of the things that Im concerned about is how us staffy owners are responsible for a lot of the negative reputations staffies have.  There are a lot of staffies around here, and many of them are owned by what the press would call "typical".  Mainly  young men in their 20s, hoodies, tattooed, hanging around in gangs and not very nice to their dogs :(   

Having said that though, I know 2 other staffy owners who are at opposite ends of the "social" spectrum.  One is a 26 year old, and to look at him you,d want to cross the road to avoid him, lol, he looks that intimidating!  Shaved head, tattoes on his neck, etc etc..but this bloke totally ADORES his staffy, he,s his life and Ive seen him cry when his dog was very ill with pancreatitis, he really loves his dog.      The other owner is posh, educated and a snob, a woman in her 30s.  Shes not very nice to her little staffy girl. :(    Just goes to show we shouldnt judge a book by its cover.

But to be called a credit to the breed is something that has just made me feel very proud, thanks for saying that.  x

Thanks freelancer, I think your right about the prey drive.  Like you say, stavs did stop when Prince stopped, and only started running again when Prince did. And the point about stavs not shaking Prince as if going in for a kill, is interesting.  Stavs obviously didnt follow through with a full on attack, so definately is a different dog to the one 5 years ago that attacked.   If this was 5 years ago, Prince would be dead, Ive no doubt about that.   And in all that, stavs only bit Prince once (I know once is all it takes, but Im starting to think it was only a nip, as nothing has been mentioned about it at the vets, just the shoulder injury).   Thats a far cry from the attack 5 years ago, thank god.

Just wanted to add, stavs is definately fear aggressive, he is very worried by other dogs being in his space, so yes, I think there are 2 different things going on here, re- prey drive and aggression.  Stavs was badly attacked at 11 months old by 2 JRTs, he lost part of an ear in the attack and was so traumatised he messed himself and was sick.  Small, yappy dogs are stavs worse nightmare,  small yappy dogs that are white are even worse!   Prince is both of these, although I dont know if that was anything to do with this attack because Prince didnt attempt to come anywhere near stavs.  Maybe a combination of prey drive, small white dog, and being fired up because of playing ball, all contributed.