Hello,

Me again. After meeting my pup's sister last month and seeing more pictures of her this week, I cannot deny that my bitch is a lot leaner and thinner in the bones. I know I have made some mistakes at first with her by exercising her a little too much and not feeding her the raw tripe and puppy milk my breeder had recommended. There is no need going back over this, I feel bad enough and I think one will just have to blame it on lack of experience. I never thought it could make such a dramatic difference. My pup is now 7 months old and she is eating tripe on top of AG and on minimal exercising since she was 4-5 months old. Although she looks fine, has terrific construction, balance and nice coat coming, she is still a little smaller, a little thinner than her siblings. My question is : is it too late? Can I fix my mistakes now and help her build up some 'bone'?
Thanks for your help.

My girl is on the lefty and hers on the right of this picture.
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t40/gaellekonak/tess-connie.gif

I don't think there is a thing you can do now...sorry

There is no guarantee that your girl would have been any different with a different regime; littermates aren't clones, and some will be genetically lighter-built than others.

(If it's any help, IMO the photo on the left is of a better-balanced bitch than the other, who looks more 'doggy'.)

Ignoring anything that has gone on in the past, dogs or bitches from the same litter do grow to look different, they are not like twins and from a litter of 10 you will get 10 individuals who will only look like one another as do brothers and sisters.

Can you do anything more to change things, no I don't think so.

Is the way she looks now anything to do with your early errors, no I don't think so.

At her age she still has a lot of maturing to go so carry on as you are and when both girls are 2 years old they may look different but they will both look good, just like any other two from the same litter.

I prefer the one on the left too.  She appears to have a lot more lung space.

Ok thank you guys!
It is true that there always was a big difference between the 2 girls quite early on. I suppose I'm just a bit obsessed with 'thick bones' as I have had the same 'problem' with my older boy : he is very harmonious but very light build, which isn't ideal for a male but not so much of a problem for a female. At least they 'suit' each other well! Haha!
Besides I know she still has a lot of growing up to do and still looks quite immature and unfinished compared to other puppies I've seen at the LKA.

Thank you anyway!

Hi Gaelle,

I have a newf pup who is twice the size of his litter sister.
Although he is male and shes female they do look very diffent but the same ( if you know what i mean).
She is only 40kg and he is 65kg but she looks more balanced at the moment where my boy is all legs and is a little " bum high" still although they are only just 12months so all this could change again before they stop growning.
They are both fed on the same feed and are walked and swim about the same also.

there were 2 boys in my boys litter, and my boy was always the bigger bulkier pup, now, he is taller and racier made than his brother (we meet regularly at shows) they have very similar faces and expressions, but bodies are as different as RRs can be. we have found that one or the other tends to get placed, depending on what the judge likes. my boy is now 12months, and is going through another gangly skinny stage, his bone is "heavy" enough, but hes lean built, all legs at the moment!
so basically, what im trying to say is they dont always turn out as we expect, and one is not neccesarily better than the other.

> I suppose I'm just a bit obsessed with 'thick bones'

'Bone' is not just bone but the leg may look heavier with more flesh around it. Just like humans, lack of fat and muscle makes legs look thinner...just look at anorexia cases.
Good steady growth with controlled exercise and correct feeding -  may entirely alter the final outcome IMHO.
One breeds for bone it is said - but no one can entirely predict the finishing line. Yours may finish in a way you dont expect.

I have a youngish food - faddy, skinny little dog. In the last few months he has upped his food intake and lo and behold...comments about his 'good bone' are starting to be heard... :-)

Thank you all, it's all very interesting. I guess I'll give her time and see what the judges think!

Sorry to dissagree but there is alot you can do. For a start every dog matures differently and at 7 month she is no were near mature. Firstly I would worm her with Drontal plus. Then re- worm her two month later with Milbemax. just to make sure she has no worms. then I would improve her diet by giving her Orijen puppy with meats and fish such as salmon added to improve flavour and encourage hunger. I would also give her plenty of excercise to aid muscle development. You could even introduce a supplement such as bionic biotic, this improves nutrient absorbtion of the food. These measures will not come cheaply but will definately aid her development over the next 11 months or so. She looks a fine dog I would mention affection but thought that pointless as she clearly gets that.

>I would also give her plenty of excercise to aid muscle development.

Without adding the proviso that over-exercising before skeletal maturity is implicated in the development of joint problems such as HD? Curious. You don't want a puppy to resemble an adult.

Geordie,

In addition to Jeangenie's question/comment re the potential for skeletal problems - "plenty of exercise" does not aid muscle development in a puppy.  

A puppy is growing muscle and good nutrition is the only thing that helps.  When muscle growth is complete than exercise aids in building muscle tone. 

I have been carefully feeding my Golden puppy bitch, keeping her weight/growth balanced by adjusting her intake as necessary. I am happy with her development, thus far, but comparing her with some G pups I see in the ring, yes she is immature.

Personally, I like to see puppies looking like puppies. There seems to be a tendancy these days, to 'overdo' pups and they look like miniature adults in their puppy classes.

Your pup looks fine to me, well balanced limbs to head ratio, she appears to have a finer head ( more typically bitch) so it naturally follows that her limbs will be a little finer too. Of the two, she will probably be the less likely to develop joint problems! She is a pretty little girl.

Carry on as you are, and enjoy her.

Best wishes.

When I say plenty of exercise I ment limited to short periods. Our Chester (16 weeks) plays all day long jumping running etc it would be hard to stop or even regulate this. Our older dog seems to love it to being only 13 months he has still plenty of play in him. I often hear this about little exercise for puppys but in reality how could you stop them.The likes of  jumping etc as i have read they should not jump there height before 12 month of age. Try telling a Schnauzer this they can jump for England. They are still getting walked seperately as Harvey is very fit and no way could chester exercise with him. This would definately not be beneficial for his development so I guess your right.

> Sorry to dissagree but there is alot you can do
> These measures will not come cheaply but will definately aid her development over the next 11 months or so

Unless you can clone your dog then rear them on 2 different regimes, this cannot be proven.

What can be proven, however, is that excessive dosing with 'products' gives the risk of metabolic bone disorders - so care and moderation is needed.

How can it be proven,can you post some links. Products that is a very broad statment as kibble could defined as a product from the manufacturer. I can see were your coming from with exessive amounts of protein or vitamin A and D amongst others can cause a long line of disorders. I suppose its all about the balance thats why I promote to give your dog the best food available above all else.

Geordie,

You mentioned "product" - i.e. Bionic Biotic. 

Among other things Bionic Biotic contains a probiotic -  Enterococcus faecium Cernelle 68 - which is used as an animal feed supplement to promote higher weight without additional feeding in animals intended for slaughter - chickens, lambs and so on.  I don't know if it's ever been tested on dogs - but even if it does no harm, why would anyone want to waste money on a supplement for a healthy puppy?

Excessive amounts of pretty much anything are not good, here's a link with a simple article that explains that oversupplementing with calcium can cause skeletal problems and conversely, not providing enough calcium.  http://www.peteducation.com/article.cfm?c=2+1662&aid=652

I'm of the school of "if it ain't broke - don't try and fix it" ... and that goes double when it comes to puppies.

> How can it be proven,can you post some links

Plaese note that the following says eg Ca and VitD but goes onto mentioning excessive dietary supplements in general just as I did when I put the word 'Products' carefully in inverted commas.

I dont do links but here is a simple cut'n'paste from the RVC's simple guide to puppy owners:

"Do large breed dogs need special diets?
Large and giant breeds are especially prone to the dangerous effects of over-feeding and
over-supplementation with, eg calcium or vitamin D. These dogs should be fed carefully, ensuring there is
not rapid weight gain, and exercise should be moderate and regular. Many manufacturers produce feeds
specifically designed for large and giant breeds. Balanced commercial feeds should never be
supplemented except under specific veterinary advice. Excessive levels of some of the essential dietary
requirements can upset sensitive checks and balances within the body, and cause problems for the
development of bones and joints."

Great replys, Have been Googling alsorts.

If we're talking about nutrition here, then here's why I haven't followed my breeder's advice at first regarding how to feed my puppy.
I have been trained as an Animal Care Assistant back in France some years ago, and it's not an extensive course, nothing like vet nursing in this country. I did the Hills Pet Nutrition Advisor Course both back there and here. I was aware of the dangers of giving too much of certain vitamins or minerals and the importance of their correct balance. I knew that expensive premium dog foods are nowadays extremely well formulated thanks to a lot of research and care from vets and nutritionists. i was just putting my faith in these complete foods. They're COMPLETE and formulated with care for puppy stage : why bother adding anything else? Why overloading the stomach, adding more proteins or whatever if this food is supposed to contain the perfect balance? Why risking my dog becoming finicky by giving him meat on top of his dry food? Never heard any vet recommending anything else but a good quality dry food, and surely they must know better? So I ditched the puppy milk (a weaned dog? milk???) and I ditched the tripe (can't be dealing with that being a veggie!) Anyway, this is where i come from, and now i can see the difference in her pups and mine. So what is the lesson to be learned? Trust experience against science?

> Sorry to dissagree but there is alot you can do. For a start every dog matures differently and at 7 month she is no were near mature

Bone and size are all down to genetics, its as simple as that.    Unless you were to starve a puppy or totally incorrectly feed it, there isn't much you do to change it's bone development.    If there was a magic 'cure all' food every breeder would be feeding it!     

Over the years I've found breeders develop their own twists to feeding regimes.  I follow them until the puppy is settled and then follow my own :-).   Feeding advice I have been given over the years are:

- Add a tablespoon of powdered milk and a tablespoon of minced beef to the food (Purina Pro Plan) - this was for a GSD.
- Mornings feed X amount of Purina Puppy Chow and an "optional" small piece of toast (this one made me laugh, the breeder kept litters in her kitchen, so I guess she could not resist sharing breakfast with puppies!)
- Morning feed 1/2 a Wheatabix soaked in milk.

.... and as I think back, Purina seems to have had some very effective marketing to breeders, because most puppies came to me fed on a Purina complete food.

I've been looking at pictures of Tessa since I got her and I realise that she was looking "slim-built" from an early age. She was never thin, never got ill, was wormed regularly and even though I didn't do everything perfectly, she was still fed loads of good quality food. So yes, i am starting to admit that that is just the way she is, and it's not a problem. Just got to get over the image in my mind of a strong built dog which I already mourned with my older dog - also a light weight!
Here's a picture of her now, 8 months old. (Tessa on the right, her sister Connie on the left)
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t40/gaellekonak/Untitled-1.jpg
http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t40/gaellekonak/15-01-09_1204.jpg

I can't see a huge amount of difference in substance myself, one is being stacked of course, and for me is a better colour (but I like Golden Goldens LOL).