I've noticed that sometimes when a poster writes to ask advice regarding undesirable behaviour, many members write reams of helpful advice to modify it.
Yet most of us would consider breeding for temperament as the primary objective when producing a litter.

Are we not (inadvertently) relieving the breeders of these pups, the bother of breeding for temperament with these 'difficult' ones?

I'm not refering to 'naughty puppy' syndrome but geniune, uncharacteristic behaviour for it's breed.

I remember distinctly a thread about a snappy, growly Cavalier.
Scared Rotties,
terrified gundogs,
I don't recall anyone suggesting taking the puppy back to let the breeder deal with the consequences of their own making.
It's supposed to be a joy bringing home a new puppy.

What do others think? Should they grin and bear it?

First off, just reading what somebody has written don't tell us for certain what caused the behaviour. What's to say it wasn't the poster, or the poster's other half, or their kids? Secondly, what's to say it IS as bad as it sounds? How many times have people mentioned growling dogs only for it to turn out to be play growling, for instance? And thirdly, if these pups really ARE as bad as that, and not caused by the buyer, then the breeder isn't very likely to be one that would take the pup back as it's not likely to be a good breeder.

In answer directly to the title, then IMO Yes! However, just like very few people are 'born bad' so too are dogs rarely 'born bad'. 

I think most posts re pups with alleged behavioural issues are very often made within the first few days or couple of weeks of them being in their new homes and usually more to do with inexperienced owners not understanding normal doggy behaviour or knowing about shaping desired traits etc :)  Some folks really freak out at a very young puppy growling for example or biting hard during rough play sessions.

In the case of any pup but even more so with a challenging breed (or a very bolshy/timid pup of any breed) then IMO if the original breeder was not willing/able to educate their new owners before and after getting their new family addition then perhaps that's because the breeder(s) concerned hold little regard of the importance of good characters - alas there will always be breeders of that ilk because IME they are mainly among the BYB and PF types we try to steer folks away from.

That doesn't mean of course that there wont be the occasional 'rogue' dog born ..... :(

In saying bad -I didn't mean intrinsically 'evil' just born unfit for purpose.
The creepy, shy boxer - the Cav that flies out at other dogs at shows.

I cant say I could imagine a family either creating or imagining a typical boxer or Cav behaving like that and I did say - not normal puppy behaviour.

I suppose all pups are different in that they are individuals with their own little ways. Some are more difficult to train than others, that's the truth. It's never once crossed my mind to return one, and I would always look towards using experience (both mine and other people's) when trying to solve a problem. Some problems take longer than others to get to grips with.

I suppose if you know your breeder's dogs and the stud they used (more feasible if you've seen them in the ring) then you might hope to predict the pup's temperament, but it's not an exact science. I wouldn't be in too much of a rush to blame the breeder and if it was as a result of uncaring breeding then I don't suppose the returning puppy buyer is going to get much joy there.

Also people and their families can get attached to their pup quite quickly and giving up can be heart-breaking.

Finally I think as a society we are sometimes too quick to give up on things if they are a little hard when maybe a little more perseverence would do the trick. But perhaps I am being too optimistic!

I don't doubt the occasional uncharacteristic dog or episode but I'm more often surprised on this forum at the misinterpretation of 'normal' puppy behaviour and the speed at which some people ask for help or want to call in the experts.  There does seem to be a desire for immediate solutions or instant toilet training.  Can you recall if they were first time owners?  Do you think their inexperience contributes to either the problem or the interpretation of the problem?

Certainly there is a responsibility to breed for temperament but I do sometimes wonder what damage is done once the puppy gets home.  I wouldn't tar everyone with the same brush and there are exceptions BUT to get a puppy and expect to leave it at home all day on it's own, or to give it unsupervised access to your garden through a dog flap, to allow it into every room, to sleep between you and your partner, to live in a flat, to stay in a crate for hours, or to get an active breed and expect it to be a stay at home dog is asking for trouble, the list goes on and these are all quite recent subjects.

So many times I read that the dog growls when asked to get off the sofa, or barks when the owner tries to take it's food bowl away, or annoys the neighbours by barking because it's left for 5 hours.  Some of these problems are undoubtedly caused by ownership not breeding.  Yet so often the advice given seems to fall on deaf ears.  Just the other day there was the thread about a lady whose terrier bitches are fighting, proof that it can happen, and yet a couple of weeks ago there was a girl who refused to listen to the well meaning advice that this may become an issue between her 2 very young puppies being bought up in a flat. 

I hope this doesn't sound too negative and of course breeders must do their best with temperament but so often when one reads a bit more of the detail these are not well considered puppies whose owners have been fully vetted by a conscientious breeders, they are people who've 'just bought a xxx puppy'.  Advice that they should have done their research, spoken to the breed societies, met some breeders, visited a few shows, gone to some working events is often sadly too late to help them or their puppies.

Puppies are a joy but they are very hard work too and in this easy, take away, buy now pay later society I worry that some people just aren't prepared to put the effort in :)

Some folks will breed from poor tempered stock - hopefully the heightened profile of what buyers should expect from a good breeder will make them more aware of assessing the characters of the dam and any other dogs the breeder owns.

I do hope buyers learn to walk away from litters where pups, dam etc are less than amiable and confident but from experience of meeting quivering guard breeds and snappy spaniels etc it seems there are several generations of such dogs out there - sombody will breed them and sell them and when the behaviour becomes a more obvious problem in say a couple of months by then most owners will be too attached to return them to the irresponsible breeders anyway :(

I was talking dogs with someone today and she was saying just how alike in character two pairs of my bitches are
" They're mother and daughter - that's why" " They've inherited their mothers temperament"..says I.

And blow me down if she didn't come out with a statement I've heard for years and years and from some very intelligent people...
" Nah there must be more to it than that" " it must be just their position in the pack or you aquire your temperament not inherit it ".

I suppose this is why seemingly inteligent people go to look at pups, cant get within 10 feet of it's mother or father, yet take it home and assume that their pup will be somehow be different from that slavering beast.

Agree - it's probably one of those 'beliefs' that's been handed down over generations, a bit like dogs tongues having AB qualities which is why they 'cure themselves by licking a wound' ...

A good post,  (this to Dogs a Babe)you are right,many people just don't seem to know what to expect with a new pup. I am an older lady, experienced with several breeds over the years, particularly retrievers. I currently have a young Golden, she is a pickle!! She is one of the worst chewers, diggers, thiefs etc that I have owned! She is normal, I just deal with it, we will get there in the end! The problem is, that many novice owners just do not understand pups- they do have to learn manners- they are not born with them!  I wouldn't 'blame ' a breeder for normal puppy behaviour. There are very few bad dogs- but many ignorant owners! This forum is a hugely important resource to redress the balance, and the many experienced people on here do a wonderful job.JMHO.

Best wishes

> 'cure themselves by licking a wound'

Or worse - cure our wounds...not where my Dweeb's tongue has been.

Bestdogs

> I currently have a young Golden

What if her mother wouldn't let you anywhere near her or hid under a table, or worse, flew out at you, would you have bought the pup?

> Or worse - cure our wounds

What do you mean they don't cure ours (races to boiling kettle and salt pot and sticks forefinger in up to the elbow :-D )

> Certainly there is a responsibility to breed for temperament but I do sometimes wonder what damage is done once the puppy gets home.

> Do you think their inexperience contributes to either the problem or the interpretation of the problem?
>

This is very true. I myself have an Airedale who is very vocal and at training classes,  or being asked to get of the couch etc, sometimes grumbles to let you know she is not pleased, not in an angry way but never the less she will tell you what she thinks . I find it funny and know she is only complaining and  does as she is told anyway.

However , I have a friend who also has an Airdale and when she is told to do something or they try and groom her she grumbles but they are scared of her when she does so they let her get her own way.So now the dog is quite dominant over them but if she had been told off as a pup that ok she can grumble as much as she wants but you will still do as you are told, as I did with my girl , she would I believe,  not be so dominant over them.
Also I think that they do not know the difference between an angry growl and a grumble so now the dog knows that when she does this they back off and she gets her own way.
So IMO puppies are not born bad they all have different wee personalities but if not trained properly may become bad and this is the owners fault. Granted some breeds are known have  more agressive traits than others some can be more timid etc but bad dogs are" man made" so to speak.

I cannot remember How many times people have said to me " oh JRT'S  are nippy wee dogs and  they bark all the time" well I have had JRT'S since I have been a child and none of my dogs have been nippy yes they bark maybe more than some breeds but not constantly. So why is this ? the way they are treated and trained !!

I also own 3 bitches , 2 are sisters  and all the same age. None of them fight with each other  although one of the JRS is the boss and tells  my big girl off at times and hogs all the toys and chews !!!

> I worry that some people just aren't prepared to put the effort in :-)

They may be putting work into an untypical example of the breed they so wanted, but soldier on. And people breeding from faulty temperaments get away with it again.
If new legislation comes into force, faulty temperaments may be as liable to litigation as faulty genes.

Certainly not! (To Toolz )I know what I am looking for in a pup, and have a superbly bred and reared little pickle!! What I am saying is, that many people just do not understand what they are are taking on with a lively pup! Of course there are badly bred litters  around, but I don't personally believe that all the problems that present on here are caused by bad breeders!

Best wishes

> So IMO puppies are not born bad they all have different wee personalities

In many many cases this is so..
BUT in some cases I have had clients bring wholey untypical pets to be 'sorted out'.
It would be easy to blame them but on investigation I often found that this quivvering, sad example of a GSD or Rottie came from a breeder who owned the quivering or  savage parents and 'cloned' lots of these faulty puppies.

Yes months of work could modify these unstable dogs and some would be terrified all their lives....yet the breeders continue to churn them out.
There is a rescue centre near me who at one time had 6 dogs in from the same breeder...all owned originally by differing types of owners but none could cope.
No action was ever taken against the breeder.
As I said I wasn't talking about naughty puppies.

> Are we not (inadvertently) relieving the breeders of these pups, the bother of breeding for temperament with these 'difficult' ones?
>

Yes.  I remember, when I had written about Scarlet, the min pin with fear aggression (amoung other things) that it was said, that I shouldnt take her back to the breeder.  I felt really bad about my decision to send her back, but it had to be done.  I couldnt live with a dog like her.  (although apparently, she isnt aggressive anymore......)

Looking strictly at the sire of the dog, I can see that it can be passed down from sire to offspring (or dam to offspring, either or/or both)   The sire, he can be people aggressive.  But it doesnt mean every dog born from that dog is going to be aggressive.  Cher is from the same sire as Scarlet, and Scarlet and Cher have completely different temperments.  Scarlet was shy, Cher doesnt know what that is.  Scarlet was submissive, Cher is definately not that.  Scarlet was aggressive, Cher isnt.   Two completely different outcomes, yet same father (and I believe the mothers are littermates, if I am not mistaken).

When breeding, one must look at the temperments, not only of their dogs, but the dogs behind them as well.  Unfortunately in a world thats "I want it now" more and more breeders are producing puppies for the market, instead of the breed.  They may have started out in the correct mindset, but drifted somehow.

> What do others think? Should they grin and bear it?

No, we shouldnt.  If it is the breeders mistake, not our own doing, then no we shouldnt have to keep the dog because we said, that we would like one.  I decided to send Scarlet back, the decision was hard, but I dont regret it.  Yes, I miss her in some ways, but would I do it again, NO.  The temperment issues were not my fault, not my doing, so why should I have to sit back and be attacked by a dog, and have to worry about every movement??  I tried, it didnt work.  I didnt fail, the breeder did on this one.

If it was me, that bred a dog who turned out to have a undesirable temperment, I wouldnt sell it to anyone.  I guarentee temperment.  Thats the first thing I look at when I breed a dog.  More breeders should put that on the top of their lists, instead of how to supply the pet market. 

ETA  http://www.champdogsforum.co.uk/cgi-bin/board/topic_show.pl?pid=983667;hl=Scarlet#pid983667

> What I am saying is, that many people just do not understand what they are are taking on with a lively pup!

I think this is true for many first time owners.  When they see a breed they like, it's probably a nice well behaved adult they have come across whilst it's being walked or if it's a puppy they've just experienced 10 minutes of cuteness.  A full on puppy tornado is probably a shock and not quite what they are expecting. 

Added to this, some people are very house proud (not me lol) and have expensive furniture, carpets etc and in their inexperience think that puppy will learn to be clean after 1 or 2 puddles.  If they are occupied with young children they are probably not able to always supervise puppy's behaviour and bad habits can become a game.

Trouble is a dogs character is not completely formed until it is an adult, puppy and adolescent behaviour just can not be used to form an opinion on how an adult dog will turn out, it just can't, dogs just like people have different characters, some have a strong will and a dominant nature, some can be hyperactive, some quiet, some nervous, often these things are a make up of the dog before it even comes to the home and most of us who breed see these characteristics in our pups from 6 weeks or so. But even we breeders know that early litter characteristics will also change when in a different environment, the dominant members will learn that the human is in charge, fall in line and grow up to be great dogs, the pups already perceived as the quieter ones will come into their own in a home where no other dogs will dominate them and grow up confident. The hyperactive pup will learn to chanel it's energy elsewhere, obey rules and grow up to a be a fine dog.

So we have no choice when asked for help from people who are finding puppyhood and adolescence difficult to cope with but to advise as we would treat any dog, training is paramount and taking control of a dogs role in our lives early on, many don't know how to do this, thank goodness for good breeders who help and if an owner does not have that, thank goodness for dog forums and behaviourists.

None of us can judge if a dog is of bad temperament through bad breeding or just not being trained properly, so I feel it is best not to even judge, and yes, I know that may well let a lot of bad breeders off the hook and there may actually be genuine dogs which have really untrustworthy and bad temperaments, but you really can not tell for sure until adulthood.  Sometimes the most difficult pups can turn out to be brilliant adults.

The only way we can help is to advise the use of good breeders,  help with initial training, and if we read that someone has tried everything, behviourists etc, and a dog is just out of control and too untrustworthy then we do have many of us who will say it is time to give up, it's not a training issue the dog is just not right.

A good breeder will also say the dog needs to be pts, (we've heard this a couple of times from posters, breeders do take responsibility) and hopefully refund, a bad breeder will do nothing and want not to help in any way, usually not KC registered so no where to complain to, but this is why a good breeder needs to be found to start with for help advice and also a good breeder will know the difference between the large spectrum of behaviour in the breed and a dog not quite right.

But once again, anyone buying a pup must do their homework and look into the characteristics of each breed they are all different, and need slightly modified training methods, and expectedly different traits of behaviour.

But, we can never judge on a forum, normal puppy, adolescent behaviour with bad temperament not until adulthood at least and even then only with a vet or behaviourists input.

Personally, once all officially diagnosed an owner could go back to a breeder and demand a refund, but it is very hard to prove nurture v nature.

The only real cover is to find a recommended breeder to start with.

I believe strongly that a dogs character/temperament is inherited, it can then be modified to some extent by socialisation and training, but the basic character is there.

I am continually amazed at some of the character and behaviour traits my girls have inherited from their sires who they do not see regularly (so it can't be learnt), and of course from their mothers or grandmothers.

I have often said it before, but friends and I imported a puppy from USA before the Pet travel scheme.  He was in solitary from 9 weeks of age, yet came out bomb proof with his responses to people and other canines, just what you would expect from a well socialised pup.

Yes he wasn't house trained, so accidents were lakes, he hated the car at first (long windy first journey), but that was about it.

He was at his first show placing well 3 days out of Quarantine and within weeks won a BPIS.

This is why in the past people had no problems with a kennel born (not puppy farmed in a stinking hole) pups when they got them home as the quality of their innate temperament meant they were adaptable enough to cope.

Of course socialisation is important, but with the basic good temperament it should not be a science in itself and most people should be able to wing it and end up with well adjusted dogs if the breeding was right in the first place.

I do feel a lot of poor temperament is masked and excuses and people really ought to be honest with themselves.

My first dog of a different breed was shown and considered to have a lovely temperament, I know this was purely socialisation and that her character was week, and I wouldn't have bred from her for that reason.

>Of course socialisation is important, but with the basic good temperament it should not be a science in itself and most people should be able to wing it and end up with well adjusted dogs if the breeding was right in the first place.

Having two litter brothers who've been reared the same way (socialisation both together and separately), and who are chalk and cheese in temperament, despite both parents' temperaments being rock-solid and utterly desireable, I know that it's a very complex subject.

We had a foster dog for a while who wasn't properly socialized for the first 8 months of his life, just left out in a yard with another dog who took a dislike to him. But when we had him and started taking him out to socialise he was/is so sociable with other dogs,kids etc lacking manners but very very friendly.

I haven't read all the threads but with the Cav etc and all of them really. I would have a thorough Health Check done including sight and hearing etc.

Life could be quite scary if everything was blurred or they had 2 discs in their spine rubbing etc.

I think nature over nurture applies here too, after all you can do everything right but still end up with a dog displays unwanted behaviors (or a child for that matter!)

I have a friend who asked if she could return a puppy as he was displaying very odd behaviors from a young age and was told the pup would be put to sleep if she did return him. She was also told by the breeder that she'd created the problem anyway.

So having paid a fairly expensive price for an attractive but totally loopy, unpredictable dog who she dearly loves, she decided to do what she could for him. They are still working very hard to get him right and it is costing a fortune. I think he's a lucky dog.

Its such a shame and it should be fun to get a puppy home, enjoy all the early stages, hope to show them, maybe breed one day. Yet all those things for my friend won't happen this time round.
 

> Its such a shame and it should be fun to get a puppy home, enjoy all the early stages, hope to show them, maybe breed one day. Yet all those things for my friend won't happen this time round.
>

A very good point k92303

If someone takes on a puppy with an untypical temperament and manages to modify it with much work...is it ethical to breed from it?

> If someone takes on a puppy with an untypical temperament and manages to modify it with much work...is it ethical to breed from it?

A resounding No, a dog needs to be typical in both looks and character, and where appropriate workign ability.

Just to add my two cents to the jar, I bought a patterdale terrier puppy, fathered by a 100% working dog.  I saw both parents and they were calm and friendly enough, although somewhat aloof.

On the day I collected her, "my" puppy (i.e the last smooth-haired bitch of the litter, although she didn't end up smooth :)) lagged hesitantly behind the rest of the litter when they all rushed towards me, but turned savagely on one of her brothers when he playfully barged into her - she flattened him and stood on his chest, snarling into his face.  I didn't think much of it really, I assumed this was fairly typical puppy behaviour, and certainly the rest of the litter didn't react to one another like that.

17 months later, I have a rather undersized, rough-coated (!!) terrier bitch who is generally playful and sociable around other dogs, but who is easily spooked and intimidated by larger dogs and stangers, easily-overexcited and tipped over into aggression, who chases horses, and is unpredictable around smaller or younger dogs.  Recently she attacked a little dog on a lead, to my utter horror.

I obviously adore the ground she walks on, but looking back I question the wisdom of breeding from a working dog, when none of the puppies were ever destined for working homes.  And of course, my wisdom in buying one. :)

Nellie is spayed, and I wouldn't have dreamed of breeding from her.

EDIT - I'm not suggesting that any of her behaviours are due to anything other than poor handling and training on my part - just that perhaps her temperament was never likely to make her a "biddable" dog, or one that was easy to handle.  Notwithstanding the fact that she is a teenage terrier. :)

>If someone takes on a puppy with an untypical temperament and manages to modify it with much work...is it ethical to breed from it?

That is a huge NO in my book. Plus on this occasion my friend had her dog castrated so there's no chance. 

Edit: But I imagine (puppy farmer/ un-educated sort of breeder) wouldn't care as its all pound notes to them. This is most likely why there's a lot of dogs now displaying poor temperaments. In the past few years it was easy money but in the current economic climate I hope it will kill off trade for the sort of breeder who sees a dog as a pure commodity.

Karen,

Much time is spent here and at ringcraft classes around the country, trying to modify faulty behavior (growling at judges, wont be handled etc) - these dogs may come around, do well and be bred from, I myself have often been asked for help to disguise nervous, aggressive dogs in an attampt to win.
Some will say that it's the owner or the the circumstances but most know the ones I mean - the less than ideal. Yet it's such a common thing to hear folk bemoaning the increase in poor temperaments.
What goes round.....

Yes, and what about the dogs that are medicated to calm them down before they go into the ring. I simply cannot understand it.

What do people make of the notion that breeding for the show ring leads to a greater incidence of dominant/driven dogs out there? This was suggested to me by a respected behaviourist. I have my doubts but I'd be interested to know what others think.

> breeding for the show ring leads to a greater incidence of dominant/driven dogs

I haven't felt that, in fact 'showing fools' are usually un-inhibited, jolly and sometimes a bit dim..they see no reasons not to show.
I've got one, he's pretty thick and easily pleased  - week in week out he still says " Pick me - pick me"...Goldfish mentality :-)

However, to do well, show dogs often have to contradict their breed standard.
Lhasas should be "aloof with strangers"..fat lot of good that would be in a show dog.

I was at an open air boxer show with all the cars right up to the ringside, most kept the dogs in the cars with the backs up...(shows my age).
Some spectators were going around the cars to look at the dogs and some (not all) barked and guarded their cars. Several people were tutt-tuting and saying " Oh what terrible temperaments".
             Boxer - Guarding....  Not at shows it would seem - yet I always put my valuables in with my boxers at shows. (They were not the 'fly-out' type but would suggest to a would -be thief - "not a good idea mate".)

On the other side I have often been asked to disguise, physical and mental problems. When asked, these people were unable to see how short sighted this action was.

>in fact 'showing fools' are usually un-inhibited, jolly and sometimes a bit dim..they see no reasons not to show.

Sis hit the nail on the head again - never met a smart one yet and the resident 'fools' sure aint the sharpest tooolz ( ;) ) in the box.  The most intelligent one I've had (by far) gradually became bored rigid in the ring, clearly seeing no point in getting excited about a bit of liver that was available any time or why some stranger wanted to stroken and poke without being allowed to say 'hi' and of course not being allowed to chase the toys being thrown from all angles was the nail in the coffin for the show scene.  Now that's a smart dog - alas not set for the dizzy heights of glory in the show ring despite excelling in type and conformation but so much fun to live with and work with because outside the ring he was my 'wiley coyotee' :)

>he's pretty thick and easily pleased  - week in week out he still says " Pick me - pick me"...Goldfish mentality

equally common in exhibitors

> Some spectators were going around the cars to look at the dogs and some (not all) barked and guarded their cars. Several people were tutt-tuting and saying " Oh what terrible temperaments"

Wham bang done it again!  Mine *sound* like they'd eat anyone that comes near their car (makes it interesting trying to learn lip reading from security when getting directions or handing over passes at shows :-p ) They're a guarding breed - ergo they guard!

Separated at birth, I'm convinced of it :-)

'Black dog' went to one show - sussed out what to do, to get out of ever going again - never went again :-) and that dog is smarter than most people I know (present company excepted).

'Dweeb' wants to go to every show - every one is just like the first one - he loves it - he's as thick as 2SP :-) Bless....

I must have the exception that proves the rule - my Cavalier girl is VERY intelligent, some of my friends say she's the smartest Cav they've ever met (ok, we're still not talking very bright, but still...). She still loves shows and goofs around and stands there saying 'pick me' or 'I love you' to the judge at 4 years old just as much, if not more, than she did as a puppy.

To the original question though, I would say yes occasionally you can have a puppy that is 'bad' right from the start, though I would guess that a lot of the time these dogs might well have something 'wrong' eg brain tumours etc. If anyone's read an American book about the emotions of dogs, the writer has a case study with a dog who was 'bad' right from a puppy. With those odd exceptions though, I reckon most bad behaviour is either puppy behavour or lack or training and boundaries.

I know of one dog that was born different to its litter and both its parents. It was a friends litter of puppies and one puppy was shy and timid from as young as it could really display these behaviours. I remember when i went round to visit the litter i thought there was one less puppy than there was because the puppy was always hiding. Both parents were owned by the breeder(i use this term loosely as he only bred a couple of pet litters from his two pet dogs and didnt really have any good reason to in my view) Both parents had super temperaments and so did the rest of the puppies. i have seen this shy puppy a few times now it is older as it was homed quite close to where i live and it still behaves like a very nervous dog but it now also growls and lunges at everyone and has to be kept muzzled and kept on the lead out of the house. I havnt seen any of the other puppies but the breeder says that as far as he knows this was the only one that behaves like that. It was homed to an experienced home and had alot of training but i think its temperament was just built differently to the others.