Feeling down about this problem as there seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel.  One of my mastiffs is aggressive to other dogs. He was neutered at 1 year had a good social life then after a couple of dog attacks he started seeing them off. Have paid for a behaviourist and use her advice i.e. make him sit etc when another dog walks by. The trouble is the percentage of badly behaved dogs has risen!  Every second dog we meet seems to want to have a go and I just feel this reinforces his behaviour. Sorry to moan.lol

I think the best advice is to find a good behaviourist that has experience with Mastiffs, but if you could give some more details you may get some advice here.
Is he an English Mastiff?
How old is he?
Was he agressive prior to neutering?
How long ago did you see a behaviourist?
How long have you been following the behaviourists advice & as there been any improvement?

>Have paid for a behaviourist and use her advice i.e. make him sit etc when another dog walks by.

Was this in conjuntion with positive association, ie, another dog aproaches, your dog sits calmly = he gets a treat ? Is he well behaved in all other aspects?

I worry about my Mastiff getting exited with happyness when he sees people or dogs, I can imagine how much of a worry it must be having an agressive dog of this size. I take it, he's muzzled while out of the house?

ETA. have you sought advice from the breeder regarding this?

He is a 3 1/2 years old. Was not agressive when neutered, this started approx 1 1/2 years of age. He was neutered at 1 year. What we did notice was that dogs would by pass my female mastiff to get to him (very interested in his backside).  Saw my behaviourist a year ago and attended her training classes.  He was very nervous (never went for any dog, although a few went for him) - should add he has never bitten a dog, does a lunge and seeing off. My vet thinks he could be giving off some type of scent to male dogs but there is no test for this.
When sitting is always rewarded for calm behaviour.  As I had a moan about, I am seeing more and more badly behaved dogs (a westie attached to his leg the other day from behind), woman didnt seem to think there was a problem westie versus mastiff-she might of thought differently if my boy attached to her westie!! (this just reinforces his belief that he will be attacked). Fear aggression is not fun.
He well behaved in house and has all the social manners that I expect of my dogs.  He was well socialized, walked with my other dogs on the moors with dog walkers who knew him well.
I have 2 andvari mastiffs (cousins). Lesley (breeder) is now in France, sadly has cancer.
I would appreciate any input

thanks

> My vet thinks he could be giving off some type of scent to male dogs but there is no test for this.

I think this is quite common in castrated dogs (not 100% sure though)?

So his agression is more like him defending himself against attacks from other dogs not him instigating it?

I think that many dogs aren't used to seeing such a big dog, I often encounter dogs that will run at Buster (16 month old entire Mastiff) snapping/growling. Luckily, if he reacts atall, it's just him wanting wo play, he never takes offence. These dogs appear fine with other dogs, they must just feel threatened by Buster, it may be the same with your boy, rather than there being an increasing amount of badly behaved dogs?

>a westie attached to his leg the other day from behind), woman didnt seem to think there was a problem westie versus mastiff

That attitude is just so wrong :( You are right she would have thought very differently if it was the other way around.

Poor boy, lots of peole just don't appreciate that such a huge dog is capeable of being frearfull of things (I'm still working on building Busters confidence around cars):( I wish people wouldn't let thier dogs run up to others without checking with the owner first.

I've sent you a PM.

I was always told to put Junior in a down where his legs are off to the side- much harder to get into a standing fast from that position- and be lose on the lead- reason for this is because they feel more vulnerable in that position and they learn that you protect them and not the other way around. I also said leave it when they would go by- I found sitting in the park like this has helped a great deal and now we can just walk past other dogs and all I say is leave it. He is still intact- got him from the breeder at about 3 months but he was never socialized and did many dog classes with him. It took sometime but well worth it.

I hate it when people allow there dogs to run up- I always say mine are not that nice- they don't like other dogs running up into their face and T-Bone will bite when another dog gets into her face. I have mine on leash why don't people have the same respect and put theirs on leash and if mine bites theirs then I look like the bad person even tho mine are controlled- just IRKS me!

I just wonder if his arousal levels are too high at the moment for a sit or down to work? If his obedience is excellent and he has a rock solid down, you may be in with a chance. However, if possible, I would work on getting his arousal levels down around dogs first by building up his critical distance. Walk towards dogs on lead and at the first sign of a reaction, the slightest twitch, you turn around smartly and walk away. You can talk to your behaviourist about this as an option. It is hard work but if he stops going into red alert every time he sees another dog you can then begin to cuild his focus on you using distraction etc..

I also wanted to add that his arousal/stress levels probably explain why other dogs keep going for him. Most dogs have a little bully in them, but, for whatever reason, sensing fear in another dog can often set them off into attack mode. Not very nice but true.

You'll also be feeling anxious at the sight of other dogs, anticipating what is to come. I'd feel anxious too, especially given your boy's size and strength. But it all feeds into the general stressy vibe. Somehow you've got to break the cycle.

Have a chat with your behaviourist and see if going back to square one with other dogs might help? By this I mean a program to build up critical distance to selected dogs under controlled conditions rewarding for non reaction. You'd probably have to dump the park for now and slowly build up to that in future. 

You could really do with an aggression specialist. which area are you, I know a great one in the south.

Thanks for everyones help. I am near the glasgow area (scotland).

Hi

I really do sympathise with you over this as i have large breed dogs i know exactly where you coming from and i get it EVERY day. When walking my dogs to or from the common we usually see other dogs out and about, the smaller CKC or Yorkies go absolutely mental at them, and i got so fed up one day i said to the man with the yorkie ''its a good job mine are not like that isnt it'' because we all know what would happen and the yorkie wouldnt stand a chance, but they would only be defending themselves if so. It would always be seen as my dogs ''attacked and killed a yorkie''. But my dogs are not like that and dont even batter an eyelid at them and walk straight past with me and my nose in the air lol!

As your dog is now scared, and wants to defend him self its a natural thing, after so many dogs having a go hes got to turn to defend himself at one point. What i suggest you do is try to not be anxious yourself when another dog approaches your dog can sense this and will think there is definately a need to proctect himself, (allthough there is because dogs are having a go but we want him to get over it). Walk him on his one so you have only one dog to concentrate on, i understand he is a mastiff and not going to be easy to control when he is frightened but id recommend a halti size 5. Set off on a walk in the feild you take him, loose lead with him to the left. Confident big strides even if your worried pretend for your dog, if your confident and outgoing your being a good master and passing on the confident vibes to your dog. Say a lab approaches you from the front owners calling him (or not) but hes not going back to them, carry on the strides and walk straight past the dog if the dog follows carry on, you have control of your dogs head with the halti. Keep him close to your body and stride on, vocalise with him, saying 'come on (enter name)' carry on until you get distance between you and the other dog. When clear from the other dog/s praise him calmly dont make a big deal and carry on your walk feeling a little physically drained but hopefully mentally stronger. REMEMBER dont yank your dog back if he is lunging dont give him the oppertunity to lunge carry on walking with pace power walking and do not slow down. If the other dogs owners are in earshot, call to them to please put there dog on a lead, i know this hardly ever works and you may get a mouthful back but nevermind. I have made friends with the majority of dog owners i see on the common, even some of those where there dogs originally went for my 2. See if you could make friends with someone who has a nice calm dog that can help your boy get over his fear to just ignore other dogs. Sorry its long its very difficult to explain with out demonstrating it. Hope you understand what i mean and i can give you more tips are further explanations if needed. But please remember be strong and confident like you dogs should be, proud and regal.

Louise

What confuses me, and I don't mean to critise, I'm genuinely confused over different advise.  Maybe not so much different advise within this thread, but the different advise people get when it comes to the problem the OP asks about.   Some say make dog sit and pay attention to you and treat working your way more slowly to the other dog, some say turn and walk into the opposite direction, Louise suggests to just walk on confidently, basically ignoring the other dog if possible and walk past it, treating your dog calmly after it's over.  Now I am not quoting various posters, so please nobody tear me apart.  Maybe I'm going off topic, sorry in case I do.   The general answer might now be, just to do what works best for your dog, but how do you find that out?

What work for my girl was clicker training, she sees dogs as a good thing/reward and not as a bad. i know nothing about your breed :-), but mine was very food orientated so this worked for her :-) we did try other things but it didn't work for us.
She can still get spooked now and again, and we tend to avoid the manic in your face types, so it keeps all her experiences positive :-)

Bagpipe,
I think you ask a useful and fair question. My view is that much of the advice here is sound general training advice.

The problem is we cannot see the dog for ourselves and so we are all just offering pointers. I think the situation, in this case, is more complex than the average training issue. I know the OP has already worked with a behaviourist and I think this is the way to go. It's clear she and her dog, for some reason, are setting off strong reactions in other dogs and I think that is what needs to be looked at.

The dog seems to be developing considerable anxiety around other dogs. Unfortunately all it takes is one bad experience, like being attacked from behind by a rogue Westie, to set up a tricky cycle of anxiety and potential aggression. A lot of big dogs can become utterly terrified of small dogs and vice versa. He is a big, powerful dog and that makes the situation so much more serious in terms of his owner maintaining control. Whatever advice is given here needs to be considered by her and her behaviourist to see if any of it is relevant or of value. I believe this situation should only be tackled by a reputable behaviourist in situ.

I think the forum is here for people to share ideas, but I also believe that most of us are sensible enough to differentiate between ordinary, minor training issues and more serious problems, like this, that require expert intervention. When this is the case most of us do flag medical or behaviourial expertise is necessary.

Hi Bagpipe,

I know what you mean with it being all confusing and not sure what advice to take, as somethings can be contradicting one another on some saying stay put and wait with the dog calmly, and like me saying walk past the dog etc. It all does depend on the dog the situation and in every case like this professional advice must be sought. We are just here mostly to offer support and give some advice. But the behaviour technique i suggested is called flooding and it may not work on every dog or every situation thats why OP needs to see a behaviourist. The reason i suggested the flooding technique was because the dog has anxiety to other dogs, in other cases such as dog on dog aggression sitting calmly as doing as owner says with treats rewards etc is good because its teaching the dog that  the other dog equals rewards treats and through assosciation the other dog means reward. With the anxiety you need to help the dog get over this anxiety, and i think a way to teach this(not the only way)  is to be in proximity of the other dog yet ignore the other dog, teach it that there is nothing to be scared of. Getting this dog and other dog to walk side by side ignoring each other. This will eventually habituate the dog to not react to other dogs, therefore the behaviour is extinct. Another way is the way ceaser millan does it (sorry to copy his thing) but getting his pack to be with another unstable dog really does help calm it and eventually get over his anxieties another example of flooding but in a more direct way. Different things do work on different dogs and situations, but to help solve the issue you need to find out the root of the problem. If you treat a fear aggressive dog with the techniques used for a dominant aggressive dog you will make things worse, definately. Hope this helps, its a little easier sometimes to put into practice.

Louise

>I'm genuinely confused over different advise.

It depends on why your dog is showing aggression. Is it through fear, or redirected excitement, or dominance? Witout seeing his reactions for real nobody can tell you what to do because each cause has a different remedy.

Louise,

without this dog being fully assessed by someone who knows what they are doing, the 'flooding' method is about the most irresponsible one you could recommend!  I'm terrified of spiders - shut me in a room with dozens of the things in various shapes and sizes and I'm going to be hyper-ventillating within seconds and catatonic shortly thereafter (if I'm lucky!)  Thankfully many behaviourists have dropped this pressure pot from all of their training programmes. 

Your ref to CM, dogs which are terrified of other dogs turned loose and defenseless into a compound of dozens of big, strong, confident and dominant dogs make the poor creatures 'shut down' IMO - you only have to observe their body language for that :(  They try to be completely invisible because every sensr in their being is on red alert mode to flee but there's nowhere to escape to

Far better to have apparent aggression problems fully assessed in person by a trained behaviourist - otherwise this kind of potentially dangerous advice could be taken as being a sensible and well endorsed option by an 'expert'- something which IME it definitely is not.

Apologies Louise,

reading back on my reply it's coming across as rather stroppy and personal towards you which was not my intention.  Alarm bells went off with the mention of flooding AND Caesar Milan in the same breath LOL.  Not a good combo for me - especially when up late with toothache (can't believe with my phobia towards dentists I'm looking forward to a root canal next week!).

regards Teri

Hi

I know the flooding method that ceaser performs inst always best for the dog, because as you say they retract into them selves and its not a decision by the dog, its forced to do so. I prefer the less pack method of habituating the dog to other dogs, but not scaring them stiff and allowing them to make progress in their own time with a little help from the owner, with placing another dog within 'its safe zone' and teaching it there is nothing to be scared about. If i closed you in a room with spiders and locked the door you wouldnt improve, but if i put a spider in your area and allowed you to get used to it and then with the help of a spider handler we slowly introduced it you closer to it for you to realise your irrational fear, you might think you could possibly touch it and you wouldnt be so scared. Allthough as i said in my post every situation is different and a personal consultation would be needed.

Louise

> It depends on why your dog is showing aggression. Is it through fear, or redirected excitement, or dominance? Witout seeing his reactions for real nobody can tell you what to do because each cause has a different remedy.

And even if two dogs, say,  were reacting because of the same cause - say, fear - because they are individuals, then the same method may not work for both dogs.  So while one would progress best being walked past another dog confidently, another - such as my oldest - would progress best by being slowly worked towards the dog while being stuffed full of meaty goodies, and backtracked quickly if they start to react.  Different speeds of working help with different dogs too - some dogs need to be worked on most walks, whereas Soli only really started to progress when I took a giant step back from trying to improve her and spent about 75% of her walks in places where we were less likely to encounter other dogs, so she had time to recover from the stress.

It all depends.

Thanks for all the explanations...makes sense and is very helpful...the fog is lifting *lol*.

I hope OP doesn't mind now, but what would be the advise when the cause is overexitability leading into frustration which seems, when on lead, to unload in a lunch and snap? 

> I hope OP doesn't mind now, but what would be the advise when the cause is overexitability leading into frustration which seems, when on lead, to unload in a lunch and snap? 

Again it would probably be dependent on the dog. If the snap is purely exitement with no intention of it causing a injury the method where you get the dog to sit calmly should work.
With that method you can only work within your dogs limits, you need to get your dogs focus before it gets exited and as it learns to stay clam you can gradually lesson the distance where you need to put them in a sit.
I;ve said before, my dog would get very exited when meeting people, he would be so exited that he would expolde into jumps/rearing onto his back legs and he may well have nipped/mouthed with exitement (hence my total commitment to getting him to learn how to be calm around people, as that is just not acceptable behaviour, especially from a dog that size), the sit method worked fantastically. Now, most of the time if he does get exited, it's so ingrained for him to sit & get a treat that he actually does that by himslef, without me saying anything (he'll sit facing me looking at my 'treat' hand), but on the whole I can walk him past people without him bothering anymore than him putting on a soppy 'puppy' face and wagging his bum :)

Hello I have just logged on after quite a while.  I sympathise fully with your situation!  I have just adopted an 18 month old springer who, of course is very lively!  He's lovely at home and in fact off the lead but as soon as that lead goes on and he sees another dog all hell breaks loose.  I am now trying the "stay calm" approach when I see a dog coming towards me.  I have tried so hard to get him to sit, talked nicely to him, walked past quickly, gave treats etc etc!  I now have a squeaky toy in my pocket which I squeak when I see another dog coming which distracts him before he can get into a completely fearful state.  I have to admit I have today bought a soft muzzle (not the big scary looking ones but a fabric one).  I found that because I knew he couldn't snap/bite/bark incessantly at the other dog I was confident to be able to stay calm and transfer this to him.  After a wee while of me being calmer etc (ie not tensing up waiting for the re-action) I will of course take off the muzzle.  I don't keep it on when he's off the lead, just when he's on it.  I know it will look to other people like he's an "aggressive" dog but to be quite honest I have had so many people tutting and looking at him I'm becoming more aggressive than he is!  If this process works I will let you know!

I can really sympathise with you. My GSD came out of rescue as a youngish pup and we did all the right things, socialising etc but when she was about 8 months she got "bullied" by two dogs in the park and that set her off disliking anything with 4 legs. 

I did some training with a behaviorist (attached to the rescue kennels) this really helped but she isnt "cured".

I too have noticed that most dogs these days are of a similar nature to her and have a right go as they walk past. I use a halti (and 2 leads) to walk her and food to distract her and make her do an exercise like heelwork or sit and watch me whilst the other person and dog go past. Seems to be working for her, I wish some of the other people out would do the same but some don't even speak to their dog they just drag it on letting it go nuts - very sad.

Feeling down about this problem as there seems to be no light at the end of the tunnel.  One of my mastiffs is aggressive to other dogs. He was neutered at 1 year had a good social life then after a couple of dog attacks he started seeing them off. Have paid for a behaviourist and use her advice i.e. make him sit etc when another dog walks by. The trouble is the percentage of badly behaved dogs has risen!  Every second dog we meet seems to want to have a go and I just feel this reinforces his behaviour. Sorry to moan.lol

In different circumstances different things will be advised, but generally I'd not advise a dog to be made to sit when another dog walks by UNLESS there is plenty else being worked on too. Most often the dog will not listen to the owner as it will be over the reaction threshhold when the other dog appears ... then you get owner feeling even more helpless and more of a confrontation between owner and dog IMO.

What is achieved is then the opposite of what is needed - which is, IMO, a close and trusting relationship and bonded dog and owner.

I say this of course without knowing all the facts etc so forgive me if a lot else has been advised ... :)

I have this problem with my small Chihuahua. He has always been aggressive to other dogs despite me having him from a pup and fully socialising him. Since I got my new dog he seemed to be getting better, and the last few times I took him out he was OK with other dogs.  Till today.  I took both dogs to the park and as there was no sing of any other dogs and he has been doing better, I let him off the lead to play with my other dog. All was fine till a lady appeared at the other end of the park with a dog. Before I could do anything, my little dog ran the full length of the park and started snapping at the lady's dog, I ran to get him but before I got to him he stopped after the lady kicked him. I stopped where I was and walked the other way as he would not come when called and I hoped he would come if he saw me walk away. But instead he went in for a second go at the dog. I was still to far away to grab him and the lady was walking away from me which made it harder. I finally got him back on the lead and apologised to the lady who shouted something rude to me. I felt like I wanted the ground to open up and swallow me. I always try to be a good dog owner and not let my dogs be a problem to others but this was out of my hands, I have never seen him run that far to get to a dog and he has never not come back when called. It all made me feel awful, and very upset. I love the dog to bits but I won't be taking him to that park again. I Don't know what made him behave like this, as he was so good last time when he walked off lead with three strange dogs.

Can I ask what you would advise Lindsay. Thanks

read the above post concerning the chihuahua - i can only say that i think it was well out of order for that person to kick your dog - these things happen and she should have walked back towards you so you could have got you dog back on the lead quicker. Please don't be disheartened - we are all caring dog owners on this site, otherwise we wouldn't be here! - most of us has been there or are still there with our dogs. There is light at the end of the tunnel but sometimes its 1 step forward and 2 steps back. I would suggest that you keep your chihuahua on a lead in future until you are 100 % sure you can get her to come back to you. You will need to go back to basics and start training at home the recall to reinforce this command (research positive training techniques for this) when you are confident that you can get the recall then you can move on. I have westie who it pretty good at recall but i still keep him on a flexi lead in parks and practice his recall on that i.e let him sniff around for a bit then recall with a treat say every 3-4 mins. Also if she is running up to and barking at other dogs then it would be useful to contact a behavorist to determine what type of aggression she suffers from. Ths will be critical in oder for you to develop further training techniques for you and her to practice. My westie has fear aggression and barks at other dogs cos he is anxious - we have been working on this for the last 5 months - so patience is critical!! - but i have seen significant improvements with him - don't be disheartened.

Thanks  clareb788 , I feel better about it now. My Chi has always been trouble. he's the only small dog I have ever had. never again lol But I still love him to bits no matter what he dose. :)

> read the above post concerning the chihuahua - i can only say that i think it was well out of order for that person to kick your dog - these things happen and she should have walked back towards you so you could have got you dog back on the lead quicker.

I agree that it seems OTT for the woman to have kicked the dog and when we are sat in the comfort of our home it's easy to say that the other dog owner was in the wrong, but for all we know her dog may have had behavioural problems (it could have been fear agressive and a warning kick from the owner to get the Chihauahua out of the way may have been a better alternative than her dog attacking), the other dog also may have had medical problems and the owner was in fear of thier dogs safety or the owner may simply have been acting on instinct to protect her dog.

I know that dogs are dogs and they will not always do as they are told, when a dog runs up to another and starts snapping it can be very intimidating for many reasons from the other persons point of view. At the end of the day we can't expect anybody to be doing the best thing for our dogs - that's our job and unfortunately if our dogs run off and attacks another dog we have to suffer the consequences. I often have small dogs run at and snap at my dog, but he doesn't take offence so I am in a position to ignore the other dogs, if he was fearfull/defensive then I would feel the need to step in to protect my dog from the DDA and protect the smaller dog from mine.

> she should have walked back towards you so you could have got you dog back on the lead quicker.

I wouldn't walk towards the owner of a dog that was attacking mine, it could easily be percieved as a threat to the attacking dog and intensify it's attack. The other woman walked away, which is just what she should have done.

I have to say, in all honesty, that if a dog was attacking (or I deemed they were about to attack) one of my dogs, then I would do everything possible to stop it.  Whether kicking it would help or not is debatable, but if it would, then I wouldn't hesitate.  I met someone with a couple of very agressive terriers yesterday - she picked one up and therefore couldn't control the other one who was snapping and growling around my puppy.  I was terrified that it was going to bite him, and furious that she didn't put her dogs on a lead (as I did mine when I saw her pick one of hers up).  I'm not having a go at anyone on here (as the posters as clearly worried about their dogs' behaviour) but I do feel that certain owners of small dogs seem to think that because of their size they don't need to worry about training or socialising them or keeping them away from other dogs.