I was Stewarding at a Show on Monday ( 12 breeds in all) and have been stewarding for about 30yrs. The difference in show manners from breed to breed really surprised me that day. The Deerhound exhibitors were wonderful, very sporting even when they did not win. Applauding winners of the classes and congratulatig each other. I spent a few minutes helping explain the routine to a lady who was obviously a novice, and had 3 other exhibitors thank me for helping her. Hows that for sportsmanship. Without exception everyone who was placed thanked the judge, and at the end of judging all came to thank and congratulate the judge.
Two other breeds that I worked with that day were so far off the map compared to the Deerhounds, in 6 out of 8 classes, exhibitors walked out of the ring before being handed their rosette and prize card in fact before I had called the class winners. I call that extreme rudeness, even if you felt hard done by you should stay in the ring for that short time, what you do with the card etc. after you leave the ring is up to you.
Hardly anyone bothered to applaud or congatulate the Best of Breed etc. let alone class winners.
Its as though no one enjoys it anymore, lets campaign for happier shows with genuine good will, life is depressing enough.

I found this too many times Marion. 

It's a shame and some exhibitors are very rude but these are in the minority....luckily

At the risk of offending half the board I'm going to say I notice the lack of sportsmanship more in working breeds. Perhaps sporting dogs (hounds and gundogs) have sporting owners :-D :-D :-D

I wonder if sportsmanship is also geographical? I judged the hound group and some variety classes at Omagh in Northern Ireland and was amazed at how laid back and friendly the exhibitors were. They all seemed to stay right to the end and clapped every decision.

>At the risk of offending half the board I'm going to say I notice the lack of sportsmanship more in working breeds. Perhaps sporting dogs (hounds and gundogs) have sporting owners

I have found it to be group related too and you can steareotype the groups. 

I hate to burst your bubble, but the 2 breeds I mentioned were both Gundog breeds.

I sat by the ringside of a utility breed until the breed I wanted to see, started

I suddenly noticed that I was sitting on a Reserve CC - torn in half...when it gets to that point people should give up.

In case you're wondering ...it was French Bulldogs and from what I'm told it was done quite dramatically and publically.

As for the working group I've only once or twice seen blatant bad sportsmanship in Boxers but I do think some breeds are terribly casual about their showing and this probably follows through to their winning.
I does make me laugh when the owners of these breeds have their dogs on an old bit of rope, maybe wipe them over with an old dandy brush and stand chatting when the judge is looking for his/her winner. More like a garden fete show :-) 

When did I say gundog breeds wern't a contender ;)

You didn't Tigger2 did!  I know in my non-gundog breed it is very rare to hear people clapping sadly!  Have also been in the ring where one of the placed ripped up his card, though that has also happened with some people when I was in the import register with my gundogs, so I suppose it isn't group related then :)

I was stewarding last Monday too and one of my breeds were also noticeable warmer to one another than the others. If your show was mine I believe the Deerhound judge was a first timer and the breed are very good at supporting a newcomer, mind you I have always found them very supportive with shows, judges and one another, they are to be congratulated for the sense of sportsmanship and support they and their club seems to have manage to generated.

Now there are many hound breeds that are also very supportive but there are a few that are not, it is a shame as if you only go to win you are not going to enjoy your day all that often.

Bad sportsmanship is bad, I've seen it often in many breeds, including my own (including 2nd placed exhbitors not congratulating the first placed ones, ripping up awards etc). But sometimes Beardie exhibitors get accused of it, when it's not that at all.
My Rottie friend, when she first started watching beardies in the ring, was astounded that few, if any, people clap at class wins. It just seems to be the done thing, perhaps not to excite the waiting exhibitors Beardies? We always clap CC wins etc, but rarely class wins, and not due to bad sportmanship. You just follow on from other exhibitors when you start to show yourself.

Kay

It is true that different breeds have different levels of showing support, and to be honest those who let out a loud roar at a win should, as far as I am concerned, show more respect for those still being judged and the person trying to do the judging.

Watched a group being judged and the reception of the dog pulled out first was so loud that most of those still showing went to pieces, not very sporting, save your cheers and screams till the finish of the judging if scream you must.

i stewarded for newfies and at open show not long ago, and what a pleasure it was, i found them to be the nicest exhibitors  clapping  after each class had been placed and generally very polite.

Oh good, I have Newfies next week will look forward to it :-)

We did clapping in our Ring craft to get dogs used to it,  I don't think clapping should put a dog off , I think part of being a show dog is being used to lots of sounds and sights,

As for ring manners , I wonder if its a case of owner like dog, maybe its the grumpy breeds that have grumpy owners lol

I don't see any problems with clapping, if your dogs nervous regarding that then should it be shown?  Must agree it does get a bit distracting when some people shout etc. after a win, but I'm sure it's lovely for their owners to know that so many people appreciate their dog.

I was stewarding at a champ show recently, a certain lady well known i nthe gundog circles showing a gundog, was placed a 2nd in her class, and walked out the ring, before the judge had time to do a write up, and when I asked her to come back in, she refused with a mouthful of abuse, and said the judge didnt know what she was writing anyhow!!
And didnt even care about doing it, in front of people!!

I can't help wondering if the SIZE of the breed entries is an influence?  I've noticed in 'smaller' (or fewer maybe) breeds it seems a lot friendlier than in 'larger' breeds.   In Bedlingtons we even help groom each other's dogs and help newbies finish their dogs at the ringside and then get beaten by them in the ring LOL   I was shocked at how 'offish' the Weim people were when my bro was showing his after the friendliness of the Bedlington people ;)

Having had the roar and whistling when getting a first CC and BOB at our second show, I have to say it was a lovely feeling, as it doesn't happen all the time in our breed, just when something amazing happens :)   I did get bored with the roars at the Staffy ring one Crufts tho, every class resulted in a roar and screaming - and there were a LOT of classes :(  bit over the top I felt ;)

If she didn't respect the opinion of the judge she shouldn't have entered LOL

Very bad manners that, but then some people are just that way :( or maybe she's just lost all perspective?

> We did clapping in our Ring craft to get dogs used to it,  I don't think clapping should put a dog off , I think part of being a show dog is being used to lots of sounds and sights,
>

No problem with clapping, all my dogs love to hear clapping it is when about 3 or 4 people scream out when the judge touches or calls out a favoured exhibitor, the other exhibitors are concentrating on their exhibits and the sudden screaming alerts the dog as if reacting to a problem and take ages to settle back down so the judging can continue, clap yes, scream not suitable for the ring side IMO particulaly indoors.

I have recently noticed some bad sprotsmanship or just plain bad manners acutally  during judging too.  My nephew (aged 13) only started showing in May this year, and is doing nicely in breed classes at open shows, has even won a toy group, and has so far won every brace class he has entered the pugs in.  However, at LKA he was deliberatley crowded out by the exhibitors on either side of him, at first I thought it was just lack of concentration, but then one of the exhibitors took a quick look, saw Max was re positioning his pug a little in front to get away from them, and calmly stepped back and trod on Gertrude's foot!  Not even a "pretend apology" was forthcoming!  As Gertrude was certainly no competition to anyone, only entered to give Max more practice, I can only think it was normal practice for the exhibitors rather than a deliberate ploy to eliminate a specific competitor.  Before this I had always been impressed with the friendliness and general good sportsmanship in pugs.  Then blow me down if the next week at an open show, again with Gertrude, Max was showing her in one of the Stakes classes and an experienced adult handler, who considers hereself a bit of a name locally and in her own breed, and has a flamboyant way of showing her dogs, was handling another toy breed for someone and did just the same thing when she realised the judge was concentrating on her dog and Gertrude, who happened to be standing next to each other in the line up, first she took several small steps backwards towards Gertrude, half covering her and flinging her arm backwards with theatrical gestures, then as Max tried to re-stand Gertrude she calmly took a bigger step backwards and trod on her little paw!  Again no apology.  Max was, of course, very annoyed, but as I have been drumming into him good manners and good sportsmanship in the ring at all times he did not say anything. 

Gwen that is disgraceful.

I would be very tempted to have a word with the woman concerned. We all know this kind of behaviour goes on and is termed "gamesmanship", in my view it is simply cheating. Unless people like this are publicly challenged they will always carry on. I would like to see cheating, bad behaviour and public tantrums made grounds for disqualificiation. These are the sort of people that give the dog world a bad name and if they are prepared to go to such lengths to win, you have to wonder what they are capable of in terms of breeding etc.. We are all better rid of them.

I was stewarding at a Gundog Open Show last weekend-and I saw a lady in one class give her dog a smack across the face-all because the dog was being fizzy.

I decided not to report to the secretary-the exhibitors word against mine-I had already had a few words-or rather she had with me about another matter-so I left well alone.

I have stewarded for many years and for many breeds-including gundogs-I have maintained a friendly approach with exhibitors and have had some very good days in a happy enviroment.

The way to deal with that Gwen is to step forward out of the line, apologise to the judge saying I am sorry I have not left myself enough room and walk to the end of the line and restack.

You only have to do it once or twice and you will find, as if by magic, you will get all the room you need. It would seem that standing up for yourself and moving is thought to catch the judges eye so the crushes stop crushing.

I agree with Nova.  Moving to the back of the line pushes to the judges attention someone is crowding you.  Very polite way to do it :)

In one breed I have handled, at one show, in two classes I had two people (Good friends) push infront of me at the start of the line.  I hold no secret I like to go first especially when the judge makes you do circuits as I'm fed up of being behind slower dogs/people)  But still they litterally charge to the front, very noticable outside the ring and people commented on what they had done when I came out.

After that I let them go infront.  Yes I would prefer to be first BUT the dogs will still follow other dogs and move well and I just hold back considerably so my dogs are still moving. :)  They might think it has beaten me but it hasn't and if the judge, on the day prefer's the dog I have to theirs they will put mine up and visa versa as sometimes they prefer the other dog :)

I can't help wondering if the SIZE of the breed entries is an influence?

I think so for sure. Certainly in Malis everyone knows everyone, everyone's dogs are almost always related one way or another, so it's just one big family and everyone congratulates whoever wins, help each other out etc -think we all have had our dogs handled by somebody else as well as handled for someone else that were short of a pair of hands and legs. :) This is what got me into showing them so much -after having been in a far more popular breed for many years that wasn't as intimate, people were faces in a crowd unless you happened to know someone.

Similar in my breed, often we handle each others dog when needed, or sometimes simply as the dogs show better for someone else.

At one show I was handling someones male, it's owner was handling my bitch, and her bitch was being handled by her breeder.

Top winners are given to Juniors to ahndle etc.

> The way to deal with that Gwen is to step forward out of the line

I agree, but Max, my nephew is 13, and has only been showing for 6 months.  Until LKA this had never cropped up, so I had not thought to tell him how to deal with it.  The first time it ws 2 young girls, both older than him but still juniors.  The next time it was a middle aged woman.  I don't know if his confidence would be up to approaching the judge and moving position.  I would be less annoyed if they had stood on Max's foot, but to stand on Gertrude's paw, who is just out of puppy, is unforgiveable.  As he is doing Junior Handling I have been impressing good practice and ring manners on him, to find that adults don't adhere to these guidelines came as a bit of a shock to him!

Do understand Gwen, perhaps if he could manage an excuse me and move to to the end of the line, it should would work as well, and he is entitled to show his exhibit to it's best advantage.   In my showing days I showed a free stood dog and it was impossible if you were crowded out, the worse was in the BIS ring with a teenage dog and a "gent" backed his bitches backside right up to my boys nose, his exhibit was in season. Need less to say my lad was not slow to accept the invitation. No one helped me and the "gent" in question just complained to the judge that I did not have control of my dog. Since then I have never tried to stand my ground but make a pointed polite move to the end of the line.

Have to add I have never had a problem in the breed ring, if someone is in the way you ask them to move but in AV or group there is a problem,

Sadly when I was newer to showing this happened to me at an open show the judge pointed to my dog and another
lady who was much older and experienced (with same breed but differnet colour and sex)walked out and took my place and when the steward pointed this out
to the judge after class awards given they said it was too late.....my only consolation was that everyone ringside also saw this and some came up to me afterwards.
After this I have always been very quick to walk out when the judge points (and some have even commented about it too - LOL - little do they realise
why I do it even if it is almost 19 years later...)

I've also had exhibitors that have crowded my dogs or tried to overlap my dogs...plus had bait thrown to the rear of my dog so that it turns round..
Friends have had handlers behind their dogs make weird and wonderful noises which has put their dogs off. I've said that if they can turn their dogs
round and show them face on it might put the other handler off from doing such bad sportmanship...

There is no excuse for bad manners in the ring, we all pay the same entry fee and we all deserve a fair crack at the 'prizes/awards'.

I hope that your nephew doesn't get put off by this bad sportsmanship, perhaps putting a letter to the editor in both dog papers would
send a message to those that are guilty of this that it is noticed what they are doing and as you've pointed out intentionally standing on a dogs paw to
gain a placing is unforgivable. To do this to a young handler too, well words fail me.

My breed is not the smallest numerically but being a newcomer to showing (I sometimes handle my mentors dogs for her), I have to say I have found (almost!) everyone who shows my breed to be really nice and friendly, quite like you say Marianne everyone knows everyone. I was a bit scared to get involved with showing at first as I had heard so many stories of bitchiness and faciness, but I have to say I have not found that in my breed and have been made to feel most welcome. :-)

Have also met with bad manners in the Best in Show ring at opens, for goodness sakes :(

Last time, my young bitch was standing beautifully but being really hard work re. walking properly and standing.  The lady behind me kept backing her freestanding dog into mine causing mine to 'tuck herself up'  which looks terrible in a Bedlie.  At first I simply assumed she was a newbie, then I tried moving away but she kept following   In the end,  I turned and suggested she give her dog more room as I was in danger of treading on it LOL and she wasn't giving herself a chance of being seen properly by the judge ;) ;) LOL  she huffed loudly but quit crowding me.  The exhibitor in front of me laughed, told me well done and said she always did it but usually got away with it, my reply was that she didn't have much confidence in her dog ;)  she went unplaced, we didn't, nor did the man in front of me ;)

Son is learning to handle and show and I've tried to impress on him the importance of good manners and sportsmanship, never to look or act, put out if he isn't placed, it isn't personal - it's just the judge's opinion on that day.  Pity some grown-ups couldn't give a better example, instead I point them out to him as an example of how NOT to behave ;)

It might be 19 years later, but it does still happen!  Happened twice to my teenage daughter when she got placed 1st (not in breed but in AV), but both times the judges actually picked up on it, and made the person who had gone into first place, move back to 2nd!  And I think so it should be, surely a judge knows what line-up he chose when the final 4 or 5 are standing there!

I can totally see how they were gundog breeds. Im not sure of all gundog breeds but i have a gundog breed and it can be like that at some champ shows!!!!!! I always make a point of clapping everyone if im sat watching but i have won on many occassions and never had so much as a ripple of applause. But on the other hand, some shows are really diferent and have a lovely atmosphere.
I was in the group for BPIS at gundog society of wales earlier this year and most applause for each dog just seemed to come from the few people in that breed who had hung on to see how they got in. Not very sporting at all!!
mel.

Im In Newfs and have only been showing for a coulpe of years so im still very much a nonvice but i am glad to hear that you think Newfie people are nice in the ring.
I have found that most people in my breed are very helpful to new comers and i have even had one lady stand and show my pup for me when i won two classes and did not have my oh with me.
She just came in the ring and took him for me without bring asked which i was very happy about and she even gave me some pointers when the class was over!!
NB Pup won best pup and res bob with her so i was over the moon.

Having started this subject, it is obvious how widespread this is becoming. Our sport is getting enough bad publicity without giving ammunition freely. For every one of us who hates the way some behave there must be dozens like us who are fair minded and sporting.
Why not at every show we attend in whatever capacity try and talk to at least one other exhibitor/Judge/Steward or spectator to encourage more sportsmanship (NOT gamesmanship). There will always be the odd! ignorant one, but I am positive we can make a difference. Be open minded not thinking 'that breed' or 'that other group', help a novice ( we were all novice handlers once).
My glass is not half empty, it is Half Full, how's yours?

Don't think it is anything new and people who show and breed dogs and like the rest of the population, some good, some bad and most like you and me, good and bad in different measure dependent on the day.

There are many stories told of handlers, some now dead, who got up to all sorts of tricks to try to win, get the judges attention or nobble the exhibit next to them, so it is as it has always been and I would guess always will be.

I've only seen the 'stealing a place' happen once, and there was a huge outcry so that the judge and steward realised what had happened and made the person move back - she was placed 5th and stood in front of the 1st placed - and no, it wasn't a mistake because she didn't move when the 1st place person told her. I must admit I was a bit tempted to chuck my card away today (4th of 4!) but even if I did, I would just put it quietly in the bin, not make a huge fuss.

I remember once when I was pretty new, a lady next to me kept taking a step forward in the final line up so the judge's view of my boy was obscured. I didn't actually even realise she was doing it on purpose, but I did realise the judge couldn't see Henry so took a step forward too. This lady then took another step forwards, and so did I.... By the time we were placed (I won, ha ha) we were nearly in the middle of the ring already! :-D

i have to put my hand up at my first show in November i got 2nd and did not know if i should stand and wait or if the judge would only write up on first placed i walked out and was not asked by the steward to come back and until today never new if i did the wrong thing or not, i was so shocked to get a rosette i came out shaking.

on the other hand i must say the Bullmastiff people have been great to me giving me advise and encouragement and we always say well done to each other.

Must just be me and my helper that cheer for everyone.  Especially at open shows when we are sat waiting for our breed.  We cheered so much for some mini schnauzers once that the BOB winner came over and spoke to us asking if we had that breed because we were so supportive which must be unusual or something.  I like cheering for anyone who wins because I know how rubbish it is when you get a win big or small and nobody seems to notice.
Nice thing was she stuck around (she had to anyway) and cheered when we won best puppy.  Before moving off to the ring she would have her group in.

Emma

Marion,

I'm in full agreement in the 'pass it on' theory of good deeds and if everyone starts with thanking the show committee for their day out, provided by volunteers, I think the ethos will spread.

Bad sportsmanship is nothing to the way folk treat the long suffering members of canine societies.
After spending, at the very least, a whole day providing a day out for us...how many of us thank them?

I do so admire those exhibitors who take all decisions with good grace, I try not to show my feelings but haven't quite perfected it fully   yet!
Marion has set me on to a New Years resolution :-)

Thanks Toolz, of course I would expect nothing less from a fellow Boxer person, not that I am breed biased!!

What gets me is that:

I have always made a point of congratulating people in my breed on their wins, whether it be classes or bob etc - not every class but the ones i tend to watch.
There is one woman who i always say it to, sometimes she is in the same class as me. She looks me up and down, says nothing and then walks off - makes me sooo mad!!! I really don't understand that behaviour in any way, no need for it.

Anyway moan over. 

I have to add that my first show i was helped by a couple of people in my breed. Every time i see them at a show they always engage in conversation = always assisting me with something in the breed, always made me feel so welcome. I have found on the whole most people in the breed i am in to be very helpful and friendly.

When I was showing there was one particular woman who was very competitive and never very friendly, whereas most people we perfectly fine. The odd thing was that occasionally Harry, normally a very sociable dog, would rumble when he saw another dog (or bitch) that we'd never seen before, for no apparent reason. I found that, if I checked the catalogue, the animal had invariably been bred by that unfriendly woman. Curious.

the animal had invariably been bred by that unfriendly woman

First there were guard dogs, then Police dogs....... sniffer dogs soon followed.......cadaver dogs :-( .....now dogs which can detect disease.... BUT who would have thought it....................

                            'OLD BAT DOGS'

We all have a use for those.

> 'OLD BAT DOGS'

Well there goes a perfectly good mouthful of Dolce Gusto cappuccino in a crop spraying fan formation all over my screen!!
*collapses in fits*
      :-D

> Well there goes a perfectly good mouthful of Dolce Gusto cappuccino

Oh those were the days...when I could drink real coffee before bed :-(