Hi to all. I was just wondering what other breeders do as the years go by and their doggy numbers increase - do you keep them all or rehome some of your stock once they are retired from breeding/showing ?

I am eagerly awaiting the arrival of a litter, toy breed - 3 weeks to go (all health checks done). This is the first litter I have bred from one of my own bitches. I kept her and her sister, they were the only two surviving pups in the litter (born by emergency c-section, their brother sadly did not make it) and I of course still have their mum who only had that one litter and will have no more.
I am hoping for a nice bitch in this expected litter to keep, in the hope I may start showing ...... however, I also have a couple of other dogs, of a different breed who are just pets. One of them, a larger breed, is 5, the other is 11 and a different toy breed. I also have a big family so am a busy lady - all the dogs live in the house (a big house) with us - keeping dogs outside is not something I would ever do, although I know for others it is a good option. I do wonder if it would be the kindest option to rehome the 5 year old larger breed - hopefully with a family member or friend.... this would not be an easy decision, but at the same time, I know realistically it is something I should consider at least.
Just wondering what others do, many thanks in advance.

Personlly we do not get a puppy untill we have room and would never dream of re-homing a family pet.  We had to turn down 3 male dogs over the last few years, all promising show dogs at 8 weeks, all show champions in their countrys and done top winning.  Would have loved to have them but couldn't because we had too many and there was no way we were going to rehome our oldies!

When we plan for litters we have a litter to keep a pup...and we only keep a pup if we have room for one plus room for a couple we don't sell.

But this is me personally.  I could never get rid of a dog I owned, to me it's like someone saying they are expecting a new baby, lets get rid of one of the other family member to make room.....  other people though rehome retired show/breeding stock.

All my dogs, show/breeding dogs (current or ex) or general pets stay for life. If I have no room for another dog I don't get one until another at the top end has fallen off the perch through old age.

Hi ice queen thank you for your reply.... I respect your view, but I do know generally a lot of show people/breeders do retire stock to pet homes and I just wondered what people on here do ... As a mum myself, I am afraid I can't agree with the idea that rehoming a pet dog is the same as giving one of my children/another family member away !!! Having took on a rescue myself, I know from experience that dogs adapt to a new home very quickly - they don't actually think or feel like humans do.

>I do know generally a lot of show people/breeders do retire stock to pet homes

It's not as common as you think, and the people who do it are generally not very well-respected by their peers.

I do have breeder friends that rehome bitches they have kept to take one litter from.  I don't think I would manage it myself but they keep them knowing that will happen and place them in good family homes subsequently.  I would never consider rehoming a dog that had stayed with me as a pet though.

> As a mum myself, I am afraid I can't agree with the idea that rehoming a pet dog is the same as giving one of my children/another family member away !!! Having took on a rescue myself, I know from experience that dogs adapt to a new home very quickly - they don't actually think or feel like humans do.

I agree with all that but if you have taken a dog on as a pet I believe, except in exceptional circumstances, it is your responsibility to continue to care for it for life.  Even more so in the current times when many dogs will find themselves homeless due to people being forced to give them up.  Perhaps they could have first call on your friends/relatives homes if they find they have room for another, particularly large breed.

my retired breeding/show dogs stay with me for life. i have a 10 year old spayed girl, her daughter who is 8 and spayed.
I also have a 9 year old male, who comes out now and again in veteran as he likes to still go to show's.

I have rehomed a couple of youngsters, and they have settled in very well but find it hard.
I think it is a personal thing, but i believe when they have shown and had litters for you they deserve to stay for life.

My oldies are special, its nice to see them interacting with the young ones.

Or perhaps they just don't talk about doing it .....I know exhibitors who do this and are well respected. You have to consider, is a dog happier living with a lot of other dogs - or would they relish the prospect of being the only dog gaining all the attention in a new home ? I agree with the credit crunch etc now is probably not a good time.

What about breeders who run pups on for 6-12 months and then decide they are not show quality - is it ok for them to place them in pet homes ?

> What about breeders who run pups on for 6-12 months and then decide they are not show quality - is it ok for them to place them in pet homes ?

Personally, I think so but again this is different to dogs that were kept as a pet. 

"I believe when they have shown and had litters for you they deserve to stay for life".

I completely agree with this statement.

Why is it different Isabel ? A dog is a dog, whether it is shown or not.

While I appreciate your reasoning, it's not something I could personally do.  Even girls that have had one litter, and then been spayed, stay with me for life.  And I have several dogs that have never had a litter, and will never be used for breeding.  I have a multi dog household, they all live in the house, and my Border Collie boy who has never been used at stud, lives alongside 2 entire male stud dogs.  That does not mean I don't use outside studs, because I do.  While I don't see them as humans, they are a part of my family.  So I suppose I'm trying to explain the difference between people who rehome, and people that don't, is that I am a dog lover.  I kept a boy from a litter last January, and I kept him to show.  He has now gone oversize to exhibit.  It's too late to change my mind, the temperament is exemplary, I love him to bits - he stays for life.  I see people as either dog owners, or dog lovers.  While lots will disagree, it's how I personally feel about the matter.

>What about breeders who run pups on for 6-12 months and then decide they are not show quality - is it ok for them to place them in pet homes ?

A younger dog finds it alot easier to adapt and is common practise.

But also think, what will hppen if you have to take one of the litter back?  Re once ran on a dog for 10 months, then decided to rehome her and without advertising found the perfect home that came along at the perfect time.  for 9 years she lived as a single dog with all the attention she could want.  We now have her back because unfortantly her owner passed away to cancer.  Tried to rehome her and she couldn't be homed with other dogs and there was nobody who could take her as an only dog.  She has stayed with us and will do so till the end now as she fit's in fine with our pack.  Now we had to make space for her and o upto 6 dogs, something we don't plan to do again, but in doing so we had to put off having a litter because we had fulfilled a space a little earlier then planned.

I think it depends whether your dogs are family members (who also go to shows and have litters etc) or just livestock.

Ok,  you have got me thinking, thanks..... but I am now wondering if those that do occasionally place dogs in pet homes for retirement will stay off this thread, I hope not.

> My oldies are special, its nice to see them interacting with the young ones.

This is so true.  My 10 year old Bearded Collie has never had a litter - but watching her with pups, and seeing her body language with toy breed pups, she is amazing.  It means  my toy pups are not frightened of big dogs.  I consider my Beardie to be a wonderful socialisation experience.

Summer dream - You say I know exhibitors who do this and are well respected.

I would suggest that you talk to these people - it seems to me that this is what you want to hear - and you're not hearing it here!

I firmly believe that a breeder is responsible for all the dogs involved in a litter - and that means that not only do I always state that if the owner of a puppy's circumstances change and they need to give that puppy up (at whatever age) it must be returned to  me, I would never dream of rehoming a dog, just because it would be convenient.  The only times I have ever rehomed a dog is when there has been aggression between two bitches.

Personally, if I were you and I felt that another small breed puppy would be too much, then I would rethink the idea of keeping it.   However, six dogs isn't much more work than 5, imo!

> Why is it different Isabel ? A dog is a dog, whether it is shown or not

Because there are reasons to justify it.  It enables a hobby breeder to contribute to the general wellbeing of a breed where otherwise they may not have been able to contribute their talents.  What reasons can justify getting a dog as a pet and then deciding there is no room for it 5 years later?  What if every pet owner felt free to do the same?
Put it this way.  If someone came to view your puppies and said they intended to keep it at least 5 years but no promises after that.  Would you let them have one?

> but I am now wondering if those that do occasionally place dogs in pet homes for retirement will stay off this thread, I hope not.

This is not retirement from a breeding programme.  This is a pet.  I think you would have to look far and wide to find a breeder that would rehome a dog that had been kept so long as a pet.

I plan so that I have no more than five at a time with room for one more temporary resident/visitor.

This means I plan when to keep a puppy so the dogs are well spaced out, with no more than 4 under 12 years of age when I keep the next.

I have kept a puppy born last year a year or two sooner than I had originally planned, as the one I had kept before her was not really up to the show quality I wanted.  This means I will not be able to keep another until the oldest is gone, probably another 4 years, as the oldest is only 11.

At the moment I have Kizi 11 (born Oct 97), Jozi 9 (Nov 99), Lexi 5 (Sept 03), Myka 2 (Dec 06) and Inka 5 months (July 08).

Personally I have never been able to part with any I have kept past the baby pup stage, they are here for good.

Just wanted to clear a matter up - I believe that any puppy I breed is my responsibility for life .....with a lifetime of support offered. Infact I would insist via a contract, as do all good breeders, that if a pup I bred needed to be rehomed, that it be returned to me.

Lokis mum - if all I wanted to hear was the thoughts of folk I know who do this, why on earth would I have started this thread  ? And would I not now have swiftly disappeared lol.

I have four dogs and have never and would never rehome a dog, my personal choice. I bring the dogs I chose into my life, they didn't chose me I chose them, all of them give me so much I couldn't bear the thought of my life without them they are all so special and make me laugh and smile everyday.

However the breeder of two of my dogs regulary rehomes her dogs once she has finished breeding or showing them. Recently she rehomed one of her Champion bitches to a lovely home (a friend), I could never do this but she says as her dogs are kennelled they derseve the rest of their lifes in front of someones fire getting spoilt. So that's how she see's it.

> folk I know who do this

I have never, ever met a breeder who rehomed a pet to make room for more.  I really think you need to understand the difference.

Isabel, I am a breeder, I hope to make a worthwhile contribution to my wonderful breed in the future .... that is my goal .....I think you are regarding me as a pet owner who wants to rehome a pet so that I can get another pet .... not so !!!!!!!

I have mom-dad and 2 pups off of them- stopped breeding because well really don't want to have more dogs- personally I prefer them more so as my pets anyhow :-)

I think its up to the individual- if you no someone that can give them a good home then thats great- but I would not place them other wise. I to have talked to breeders when I was looking for a pup and they had some retired show dogs that they were looking to rehome- but I myself was interested in a pup.

But if you kept some peerly for pet purposes I don't think it would be right to rehome them- I do think dogs would enjoy being spolied in a home with out so many other dogs so so speak. I no when we had 6 dogs and that was hard work trying to give them all the attention needed- now have 4 due to them passing on and will not get anymore tell the rest have passed on. RIP

> I think you are regarding me as a pet owner who wants to rehome a pet

You have said this is a pet.

> It's not as common as you think, and the people who do it are generally not very well-respected by their peer

That might be the case with those who do this routinely, but I do know good breeders who do let some of their older/retired dogs go to special homes within the breed, usually to someone who has had their dogs before and no longer wants or is able to start with a puppy.

There are also older breeders who while still wishing to stay involved with the future of their breed retire stock (often homes waiting since they were born) to pet homes knowing that they will be too old to keep dogs in any number in 10 or 15 years, but still have a lot to offer the breed as breeders.

this thread is intresting, i wonder what people do with their girls that are not breeding any more,I have had 2 litters (9 pups in all) from my import champion, she is now spayed as i felt she had done her bit,( she is 6) she is also an ex show girl (am ch) she is such a gentle soul and loves youngsters, but with already having 2 homes, she is staying with me untill her time comes to go to the bridge.

She has always lived in a multi dog home, in kennels in the usa, and in the home with us which she loves, she watches tv, and lies on the sofa when she can get on as every one likes the sofa.

I also have a young lad who came back to me after a month he has not made the grade to show, he is 8 months, i will not rehome him but will have him done when he matures, he will spend the rest of his time with my family.

Am i wrong or are the people who rehome wrong, its a matter of personal choise, but i believe that the love you get from them out weigh's everything else.

Brainless - the voice of reason, thank you. I agree with you .... spacing them out is the way forward .... but I guess I am little eager with just getting started in my breed and if I am lucky enough to get a nice bitch this time I will keep her... I very much doubt I will let my 5 yr old girl go though..... I just wanted other folks thoughts on the matter.

no one i know rehomes their ex show dogs
all stay as they were originally bought for
family pets
the day i have to rehome a older show dog to bring in
a new show pup. is the day i give up showing
i only breed if i want a new pup
thats why i only had 1 litter in 17 years
for me once you get a dog, its for life

Some of my dogs are shown, some worked and some just laze about lol but at the end of the day none are more important than the others and absolutely none would be passed onto someone else!

The only breeders I have heard that re-home any of their older dogs would be breeders that I would avoid, I personally cannot understand how people can just get rid of a dog because they think it no longer fits into their lifestyle.

If you are going to breed a litter make sure you have room for any you want to keep.

tottally agree
i did have 7 dogs,
lost others to old age
i,m now down to 4
ranging in ages from 4 months to 12 years
hopefully i will have a litter in about 2 years time

This is why sometimes it is wiser to breed from a bitch and then keep something from a second litter when you have more space.

It gives you a chance to evaluate the litter she has produced to maturity and gives you a better idea of which dog will suit her for the next litter giving you an even better chance of producing a pup you want to keep to advance your breeding program as you will know what she can produce, as well as knowing what the stud has produced.

This is one reason I do not agree with those who say you should only breed a litter if keeping a puppy from it, as often a litter will advance or clarify your breeding program, and often  pup from a litter that you don't keep something from may be used by another breeder and something down the line will contribute back to your line later.

I think you should always be thinking several generations ahead, bearing in mind that often plans need to be amended..

> but I do know generally a lot of show people/breeders do retire stock to pet homes and I just wondered what people on here do ... As a mum myself, I am afraid I can't agree with the idea that rehoming a pet dog is the same as giving one of my children/another family member away !!! Having took on a rescue myself, I know from experience that dogs adapt to a new home very quickly - they don't actually think or feel like humans do.

Well I've been involved with dog show people/breeders for a very long time(too long)& the number of people I know who would get rid of an older dog in order to keep a new puppy I can count on the fingers of one hand & I do know a lot of breeder/exhibitors. I know another 2/3 people who have friends who will wait for an older dog from them-who perhaps hasn't made the grade as a show/working dog or has been a successful showdog who has been retired from the ring, these dogs already know their "retirement home"owners. I also know people who keep their oldies in their retirement & like Barbara try to spread out their dogs in age so that they can accommodate them all.

I'm lucky I live on my own & have room for lots more dogs should I want to keep them & I will have more dogs after I fully retire.

I'm sorry but I've only ever had to rehome one of my dogs & it haunts me to this day-he went on to live a very long healthy happy life with his new owner(lived well into his later teens)the only thing I have in compensation, is the knowledge that his forever home was exactly what he wanted & needed & where he was adored until the day he went to the Bridge.

Owning dogs (or any other pet)is a privilege & not a doG given right & to dispose of one when they are surplus to requirements as a new one is wanted is nothing short of inhumane. Dogs do have bonds with humans & I regularly see the look of confusion on the faces of dogs being dumped in rescue by their unfeeling owners. Dogs that have to be given up & have been truly valued by their owners have a hole different look, they pick up the emotions of their saddened owners, as do dogs who have been neglected by previous owners. No they don't think like humans, but there are bonds between dogs & owners that cannot be severed with the ease you believe they can

Brainless, I understand what you are saying re keeping one from a second litter ..... but what if for some reason she didn't get into whelp ever again and then that would be my line gone before it had even got properly started.
I do have her sister too, so I know that does increase my chances of getting a bitch to keep .... but I prefer the bone structure of the bitch who is currently in whelp. Of course she may not produce a bitch for me and I do not wish to keep a dog ... so who knows, nature could make me wait anyway.
Thank you for your reasoned and sound advice, very much appreciated.

I would not let an older dog go but I would pet home a puppy up to 6 months old that I have been running on to see if they will be ok to show, I have 9 Papillons 7 of which are older dogs, they will stay with me forever, the two younger ones I hope will turn out good enough to show but if not I have two friends that have known them since birth and love them dearly that want to have one each should they not be up to showing, I feel young dogs re-adjust to a new home very well providing its an excellent loving home but older dogs would not be so happy to do that.

i think personally it works out better for the dog if they are re-homed as a pet.we had a litter from our tib spaniel and she had 3.we kept the only dog back as we wanted a dog to show,we sold one bitch to a pet home and my mum had the runt of the litter who was also a bitch.after 4 or 5 months it was clear the dog pup wasnt show quality and we looked to re-home him as apet.before this his sister who had gone to my mum had been returned as my mum couldnt cope with her mischeivous nature,and being a tib the pup knew she could get away with murder and exploited it to its full potential! when i saw this pup my jaw dropped as she was stunning,and we kept lola here since.the dog pup was re-homed just down the road and he loves it there ,he lives with an elderly terrier and 2 cats and has the sort of life you imagine your pups would go to.he comes back every august for his hols and all my dogs recognise him.the girls, his mum and sister love having a boy tib here and spend the whole week mounting him! i think it worked out for the best him going to a pet home rather than staying here as he gets so much more attention.its a personal thing ,i would never re-home his mum or sister as tibs do seem to bond a lot more than other breeds ive had.in our other breed dogue de bordeaux we see dogs have 3 or more homes in a lifetime some even more than that,its quite common,a lot of people in the breed seem quite mercenary regarding thier show/breeding stock.our dogs dad is on his 3rd home at least and also our dogs sibling has been sold on 3 times in 3 yrs.i think it differs from breed to breed...mind you alot of these dogs we end up seeing in the showring and are devoid of any emotion,wether its because they are used to being passed around or not i dont know...our boy is one of the few who shows real love for his owners outside the ring even if he has played up!!

I agree with you roy about bordeaux being passed from pillar to post, it happens alot! Dogs being used at stud many times to get there worth and then sold on for rediculous amounts so someone else can make abit of green, nevertheless these people i wouldnt ever consider buying a pup from. I do think rehoming pups is abit different, my mum said that when i retire by girl that she will have her, but no she wont i wouldnt lose her for the world. Have a consience, and this will always make the right choice.

Louise

its for the same sort of reason we wouldnt allow rumble to be used at stud as we felt it would break our hearts to see his offspring go through potentially so many homes if they didnt make the grade or didnt breed on,etc.however we do get an awful lot of requests for older tibs from people who dont want a puppy,and we do always refer them to breed rescue as a lot of tibs are living with elderly people and when they are moved into a home or deceased the rescue often have older dogs to rehome.

sometimes re-homing does in hindsight seem to have been the best thing all round as it was in our case re-homing our boy tib puppy.i think if you think that your large breed would be more suited to a loving pet home as a 0ne on one ,then if the right person is found go ahead. after all if your conscience says youve done the right thing,you only have yourself to answer to,as long as he settles and your sure its a brill home.some people do need to differentiate between the fact some dogs are bought for breeding or to be shown and some are bought as pets and are also shown or bred from.it may not be everyones cup of tea but it exists.we know many people in the show world who would replace/take back a puppy sold as a show prospect if it doesnt make the grade or conversely sell on a dog if it doesnt make up.i also know of people that decide to go out of a breed and sell them all before starting up in another.it happens ,and its what your conscience will allow..

>

> A dog is for life.....
>
> I understand in exceptional circumstances that some pets need to be found new homes but to make room for others ?
>

what more is there to say?  just feel sick at the thought of anyone contemplating giving up one dog to make room for another!!!

>I very much doubt I will let my 5 yr old girl go though.....

IMHO the only valid reasons to rehome your (previously much-loved) pet would be if she was unhappy living with you, or if you needed to reduce your numbers full stop.

To move one out because she's 'just a pet' (and therefore useless?) seems very callous.

> To move one out because she's 'just a pet' (and therefore useless?) seems very callous.

I wonder how the pets breeder would feel about rehoming her to keep a pup from your own breeding?

Summerdream..Not rude....just right.

> some people do need to differentiate between the fact some dogs are bought for breeding or to be shown and some are bought as pets and are also shown or bred from

Can you clarify this please Roy?
(I am unsure of the relevance as the OP has stated that it will be one of her two 'Large breed' 'pet' dogs that will be re-homed, rather than her 'Breeding stock')
Thanks!

VERRRY INTERESTING THREAD....I PERSONALLY HAVE A PROBLEM WITH FOLK WHO RUN THEIR PUPS ON THEN GET RID WHEN THEY DONT TURN OUT TO BE SHOW QUALITY.    YES DO IT TO A MAN IF THEY DONT TURN OUT HOW YOU WISHED , BUT A DOG NEVER.  I HAVE HAD A FEW AT MY TRAINING CLASS THAT CAME TO THEIR NEW OWNER THIS WAY, THEY HAVE LIVED IN A KENNEL AND ARENT HOUSE TRAINED, NOT BEEN SOCIALISED WITH DOGS OR SOCIETY. SOME ARE LEFT WITH PROBLEMS THAT WITH THE BEST WILL IN THE WORLD, ARE NOT GOING TO BE SOLVED.  IF PEOPLE DO RUN PUPS ON, THEN THEY SOULD MAKE SURE THEY DO SOME WORK ON THE PUPS TO HELP PREPARE THEM FOR REAL LIFE, JUST INCASE THEY DONT TURN OUT THE WAY THEY WERE MEANT TO.

Thank you to those of you who have contributed to this thread with balanced replies. I have personally never felt the need to be downright rude to someone I don't know.

One of my bitches (11 year old) came to me aged three..... I did a 10 hour round trip to get her.... her owner had decided she didn't want to breed or show her as had been the plan when she bought her, and she did, instead want to concentrate on her other breed..... seems callous, but she felt it was in the dogs best interest. I can honestly say, this girl (the dog) never looked back. It may be a hard fact to swallow for some, but you know our much loved dogs would indeed happily live elsewhere as long as treated well - and not really miss us as you would imagine.
Another example, last summer when we went away, two of the dogs went to stay with my mum-in-law (who they rarely see and so don't really know) for a fortnight. Being dogs and not humans, we were unable to tell them that don't worry, we will be back for you soon - as far as they knew, that could have been their new home - they never bat an eyelid. Of course they were pleased to see us on our return, but at the same time, I know if we had never been coming back for them, I doubt they'd have been that bothered LOL.

To huskygirl - where have I said my bitch will be rehomed ? And I said "larger" not "large" - and one not two ......

I had to rehome a bitch that I showed and bred from, but she was unhappy living with other dogs. In a one dog household she became a different dog. I think that you have to take the dogs behaviour into account. An unhappy dog might be better off in a different household. One of my dogs loves men - but there isn't any in my household ;-) Another (long gone over the rainbow bridge) didn't and wasn't happy when I lived with my ex. Should I have let her live in misery? As it is I left my ex and the dog was very happy (me too :-D ) But just to rehome to make way for another? No, I don't think I could do it. If I thought the dog would be happier, then yes I would.