Me & My Boyfriend Have Just Bought A 13 Week Puppy (Soul) On Friday 19/12/08 & Already Have A 18 Week Old Staff (Vegas) Both Bitches, We Crate Trained Vegas From The Day We Had Her & Now She Will Not Relieve Herself Inside At All & Has Learned To Sit, Give Paw & Speak. We Managed To Teach Her This All Within 3 Weeks Of Having Her.

Now We Have Another Puppy Soul Who We Are Trying To Crate Train...But She Just Relieves Herself In The Crate & Is Happy To Lie In It? We Are Now Currently Trying The Puppy Training Pads But She Refuses To Use Them, At The Moment If We Catch Her Relieving Herself We Will Tell Her "NO" Pick Her Up & Place Her On The Puppy Pad. She Is Booked For Her Injections This Tues 23/12/08 So Is Unable To Go Outside For Another Week. She Is Just Not Understanding The Pad Thing At All... She Will Pee Everywhere But The Pad.

Anyone Any Ideas On How To Get Her To Use The Pad??

Cheers

Charlene =)  

Charlene, you can take her out into your own garden as long as no other dogs that are not vaccinated are not using it.
I wonder if your breeder talked to you about the difficulties of having two bitches of such a similar age as when they reach maturity you may find they will challange each other and may not tolerate each others company at all.  Have you given consideration to how you will cope with that come the time?  In addition to that very serious situation you will also have to tackle training and developing independence from each other otherwise you may find they are more focused on each other and not caring much for any rules you may wish them to follow.  All in all you are in for a very challanging time yourself by taking on these two together. 

Thanks Isabel =)

They Are Getting On Very Well, Vegas Is The One In Charge, Soul Is Quite Happy To Let Vegas Be The Boss...For Now Anyway. We Have Spoken To Several Experts On The Subject & Have Been Informed That 2 Males Are Much Worse The 2 Females & That If The 2 Dogs Are Fighting For Dominance It Is The Sign Of A Weak Handler.

We Are In A Flat And Do Not Have A Garden, But There Are Several Fields Out The Back But There Are Also A Lot Of Stray Dogs About So Im Not Risking It. Just Need Soul To Learn To Use The Pads or Crate For Now But She Is A Bit Dopey I Think & Just Cant Grasp It At All.

> That 2 Males Are Much Worse The 2 Females & That If The 2 Dogs Are Fighting For Dominance It Is The Sign Of A Weak Handler.

Sadly it is far more common for it to be just the opposite & when two bitches(especially if they are close togetjher in age)fall out is usually forever. Nothing to do with the owner being weak at all, much closer linked to hormones

> We Have Spoken To Several Experts On The Subject & Have Been Informed That 2 Males Are Much Worse The 2 Females & That If The 2 Dogs Are Fighting For Dominance It Is The Sign Of A Weak Handler.

Would love to know who your experts are Charlene! :-)
As has already been said, two bitches can be just as bad if not considerably worse than two males.  I'm suprised your experts didn't warn you of the difficulty that could come from owning two animals of such similar ages?

I do hope one of these experts isn't the person who sold you the second puppy, knowing that you were in a flat and already had an 18 week old puppy? 

Two bitches of such similar ages has the potential of being a huge problem as they mature.

I would seriously think about returning this second puppy to the breeder to rehome because I wouldn't consider taking on the task that you've set yourself. :(

I would say just have patience and your new little girl will "get it" in the end, I will say though whoever the breeder or breeders were that sold you not one but two young puppies to live in a flat really needs shooting! I am absolutely sure you love your girls and have the best intentions for them but keeping one dog in a flat let alone two is a real job of work, it means you will have to take them out every single time they need the to relieve themselves be it morning noon or night and this will go on for 10+ years, that is a heck of a thing to have to keep up, maybe you might consider having one or both speyed later on to reduce the hormonal bitch conflict that may well surface when they mature, I wish you all the best in whatever you decide to do.

Your 18 week old pup may have been completely housetrained, but with another pup weeing inside, her housetraining could falter too :(  also as they near a season a bitch's housetraining can slip ;)  This is not her fault, it's just the way it can happen ;)

I have to say I'm not really surprised that your second pup is not 'getting it' re housetraining :( the type of breeder who would be willing to sell a young puppy to someone who already has a puppy is not the type of breeder who will have been spending time housetraining the pups before they leave :(  I could be wrong about this, but no responsible, knowledgeable breeder would be willing to sell another pup into the circumstances you describe ;) 

Your new pup may be picking up cues from where the first pup wee'd and now also from where she has wee'd ;)  First thing is to make sure there is no lingering smell and BIO washing liquid/powder diluted and sprayed on then followed by vinegar will help eliminate smells.  #Aso wash the pups bed and crate with Bio washing liquid.

Then, your pup will need to be taken outside after every meal or drink, after playing, after sleeping and every 20 mins or so in between.  By trying to train pup to pads what you are really training her to do is wee inside ;)  she really can't understand what the difference is, she's a baby.   As for weeing in her crate, at such a young age she has no option but to lie in it, she can't hold it, she doesn't have the control of her muscles and relies on you to let her out at the right time.  She will need lots of patience, and you will have to work twice as hard to get her housetrained as if she was a single pup, most of her attention is on the other pup, whereas the first one's attention was all for you ;)

Sadly I think you may have been misinformed, in over 60 years I have never known companion dogs fight to cause injury but have had to re-home fighting bitches. May be Staffies are different but I doubt it.

You will need to set aside about an hour and a half a day for each pup so you can train them separately and take them to and from the garden now and walk them separately when they are old enough to go outside. If you have this time then you may be able to manage with two of the same sex so close together but if you can't I would consider returning the one you have only just acquired as your chances of success in rearing two well trained bitches is not high.

Sorry, I know you did not know and now you have a problem but if you care for the pups and your relationship I would send one back.

It has nothing to do with weak owners, i too would love to know who your experts are that you are talking to.
I would say you are going to be in for a rough ride, just because one of your pups is allowing the other to be pacl leader at the moment does not mean that will change.  I have a stafford bitch who has just turned two, and she is definetly different to the sweet pup she was at 6 months. I too am surprised that a breeder will allow you to have a second pup knowing you have such a young one at home.
All i can say is good luck and definetly look into getting them both spayed.

Angela.

d

For the record I have spoken to Barbara Beaufoy the president of the Staffordshire bull terrier club . She informed me that though during the bitches season they can be a little "ratty" they are by far and away alot better together than two males. She has two bitches that have not been spayed that live quite happily together. She said that she would never recommend two males staffords though as they are far more agressive and much more likely to cause serious injury due to dominance struggles. She also informed me that weak handlers are very often the cause for dominance struggles in the family pack with staffords . It was Barbaras advice that led me to go ahead with introducing another bitch to my home. I appreciate your comments but alot of you are quick to judge and gang up when you are by no means experts.I hope you guys that requested the identity of my "experts" are satisfied with Barbara Beaufoy. Only wanted some extra quick advice about house training not some clowns telling me to get rid of my pups. And for the record my breeder was fantastic and extremely knowledgeable whos staffs have champion bloodlines and fantastic temperaments.

Hi again I'm sure no one meant to offend you personally and if you did feel offended then I for one will apologise to you, the opinions expressed by everyone is simply that an opinion, in truth you can take or leave the suggestions as you feel best, my own opinion of the difficulties of having to take dogs out of a flat to go to the loo when they need to was based on personal experience, I moved into a flat when some work was being done to the house and I found to have to take dogs out so many times a day and then late on in the evening again became quite tiresome and the thought of doing that for years (presuming you are staying where you are which you may not be of course) would be quite daunting, my suggestion of having one or both of your girls speyed was again based on personal experience, I show my Papillons and the girls can certainly become a tad more than ratty at times when one is in season, I tend to call it barmy time as they can act so out of charachter driven on by those hormones, I dont as a rule spey because I breed the occasional litter but the few I have had speyed have lived perfectly happily all their lives with none of that hormonal barmy time, in a lot of ways I thought them happier than the unspeyed bitches, each to their own anyway and I hope the housetraining prob with your new girl will soon improve.

Yvonne.

I'm very sorry but you are the one who has been seriously misinformed. Bitches of any breed who are similar in age can fight, and indeed they can fight to the death. Males also will fight but although severe it's not thought to be as bad as bitches fighting. Yes bitches can be more ratty at certain parts of their cycle, but they can quickly learn aggression which can then carry on all the time. Usually in these circumstances the only way out is rehoming one. And yes, i do think of myself as an expert these days as i have almost finished my postgraduate degree in animal behaviour counselling which is tutored by some of the top behaviour counsellors in the country and they have all said the same thing, because they have seen the evidence first hand. The best pairing is by far and away a dog and a bitch. Yes some bitches live together quite happily, but it doesn't mean it isn't a risk! I'm sorry but why would so many people say the same thing if it wasn't true, when you have just been told this by one person who has no behaviour qualifications? Weak handlers have nothing to do with dominance struggles between dogs, dominance struggles are down to resource problems, nothing to do with how good the handler is.

I find it very hard to believe that Barbara would give that sort of advice, but there you go. 
What do we know, we're just clowns! lol

Everyone has said to you that bitches CAN be more aggressive than males, not that they definitely ARE.  No-one has said you categorically cannot keep two bitches together.  I know quite a few people who keep 4, 5 or more Staffords of both sexes, but they are experienced and long standing Stafford owners so know a good deal more than I do!
And I still stand by that it has nothing to do with weak handling.  Of course you have to have your wits about you with one Stafford, let alone any more, and perhaps you do have to be quite a lot more firm with them than some different breeds, but it doesn't mean you will stop a mean Stafford bitch (or dog) from attacking another one if it is in that frame of mind.

Secondly, if you want to start getting funny with people, I'm sure we could all say a thing or two about 2 Staffords being kept in a flat, so I suggest you don't name call and heed some of the advice given.

extremely knowledgeable whos staffs have champion bloodlines

And that sentence there I'm afraid shows the level of your experience and knowledge. 

It is up to you if you choose to take the experience of one person against the many who have taken time to give you their honest opinion on here. We have no axe to grind; we are not trying to sell you a puppy.

It is a known fact and a truth to say that once bitches fall out it is rarely retrievable, as they never forget. Dogs on the other hand will fall out one moment and be playing the next. Staffies may be different but if they are then I would expect that both sexes would fight till one collapsed so perhaps anyone who has two or a similar age should make sure they can be separated when there is no adult human in the house.

One can only base advice on information given. :(

There is a post on her just a bit further down about two sisters that have lived happily together for 3 and a half years and are now fighting every day, is that not proof enough that it does indeed happen?

I never said that it does not happen. I said it is much more likely for two Staffordshre bull terrier males to fall out that females.It is specific to the breed.It is a fact! I think you lot are confusing breeds. look on any staffy site and it tells you never to keep two males together as they will probably fight till the death. never mentions two bitches. Oh and yes i would rather take the advice of the president of my particular breeds uk club over a dafties who cant admit when they are wrong. once again 2 staffies males are generally much worse than two females fact!

I had two bitches once where there was just 6 months of age difference. The second was a rescue dumped on me so it wasn't a decision I took. (The local RSPCA at the time was closed for further animals as they were full.) Cutting a very long story short, these two DID fight to the death -one of them had to be put to sleep after a very nasty fight with serious injuries. The life of the other was only saved when my then husband managed to throw her over a fence to get her to safety. They weren't of breeds known to be aggressive towards other dogs either -one Golden Retriever and one Border Collie!

A friend of mine has just had to rehome one of her bitches after a serious fight where one ended up with a lot of stitches.

For the record I have spoken to Barbara Beaufoy the president of the Staffordshire bull terrier club . She informed me that though during the bitches season they can be a little "ratty" they are by far and away alot better together than two males. She has two bitches that have not been spayed that live quite happily together.

Did you tell her your two bitches would be the same age? There's a big difference between having two bitches of very similar ages to having two with 2-3 years age difference.

> once again 2 staffies males are generally much worse than two females fact!

Maybe so.  They are not a breed that are particularly renouned for community living but I don't see how that gets you away from the fact that two bitches of very similar age, of any breed let alone this one, are also very likely to have issues with each other when they mature. 
All that is one thing.  The other thing that should not be forgotten is that it should also be appreciated just what it is to train and socialise two puppies at the same time. 
Are you at home all day with lots of time to cope with all that must be done, individually as well as together, on top of all the extra time you will need to tog yourself up to get them out of your flat several times a day to master housetraining?  This seems a Herculanian task for a very experienced owner let alone a novice one.

Call me daft if you like I do hope your confidence proves to be well founded for the sake of your bitches. Some of us who may not own SBTs now but may still have experience of the breed, as I said before, you can pick and choose what you like to believe but there is no need to be rude to those who are only concerned about the dogs, you my dear, can do as you like, but I can't help concerning myself about your animals, if you don't like it, tough.

>Did you tell her your two bitches would be the same age? There's a big difference between having two bitches of very similar ages to having two with 2-3 years age difference.

Marianne this was just what I was thinking, I cant imagine the president of any breed club recommending to have two puppies together.

Fine.  On your head be it.  But some of us 'dafties' (yet again you feel the need for insults) actually do own the breed too, just as the UK breed club member may do too.
Just because some websites don't mention keeping two bitches together does not make them right.

Also if you would care to read most of the responses again, many have said that SOME bitches can be ok, but it is advisable not to keep two bitches together.
Nobody needs to admit whether they are right or wrong.  It really isn't a case of that, advice is being offered by people who have actually got experience with Staffords, and just because they're not the president of the UK breed club, doesn't mean they are wrong either.  Advice is just that
Are you a member of your local breed club?  Perhaps they could also offer some differing advice.

I too hope that your confidence is well founded.  Otherwise there could just be another case of a Stafford getting a bad name because of inexperience.... !

I object to all of us being called "a bunch of dafties" everyone is just trying to help you but if you are above listening or taking some very good advice from people that have had dogs for longer than you've been born (I looked at your link on your profile) then so be it, for the sake of the dogs I hope it all does work out, the rescue homes are full to bursting with Staffords where people have found they could not keep them anymore for a variety of reasons including fighting, best of luck!

> (I looked at your link on your profile)

There appears to be an adult male Staffordshire Bull Terrier living with you as well.  Is he neutered or is there somewhere he can go and stay when the females come into season?  If not this is something else that you may find extremely difficult to manage in a flat.

> look on any staffy site and it tells you never to keep two males together as they will probably fight till the death. never mentions two bitches

It seems there are a few Stafford owners on this Stafford specific forum Discussing how they never leave their bitches together unattended.

...The Dafties!

The other thing that should not be forgotten is that it should also be appreciated just what it is to train and socialise two puppies at the same time.

Indeed -and at this time of year too. I'm doing just this (although dog and bitch, and NOT by choice) and it's a nightmare as I've already mentioned more than once on this forum. There just isn't enough hours in the day for two pups, especially with the days getting dark before 4 pm already. I've already had to have a trainer in to help me with some advice -and this isn't the first time I've had two pups, and I've had dogs for 28 years, worked with them in several capacities etc -it's still almost impossible to keep two pups. :(  Thankfully there are 3 able bodied adults here (with two people not working so at home fulltime) and we live in the countryside, but even so -it's now a hard task having a pup, not enjoyable.

The adult male was called Bobby i had him for 12 years before he was euthanised due to bowel cancer. I have had dogs since 6yrs old. i have spoken to six different staffy rescues including my local one and they all said the same thing. Dont ever have two male staffies together. I have also spoken to numerous breeders for advice(not the one is was buying from).The president of the sbtc did know the age of both puppies and believed with me being an experienced handler that all should be fine.The reason i called you lot dafties is because you lot are all the same. I ask about house training and you peeps fly off on another subject. I live in a massive flat with huge open fields all around. I work from home for an it company and am with my dogs 24 hrs which i dont find difficult at all. It annoyes me that you all think i would take this on without properly researching the subject. I have stated that two of any dogs can fight or fall out. I also admit my two dogs could be the same but what i have said all along is that it is a proven fact that 2 male staffs are worse together than two females in the general scale of things. My vet seen them both this morning and also believes that we got them at the right age to grow up together.He has had staffs and english bull terriers since he was 20 and is 62 yrs old.I appreciate concern for my pups but would also appreciate it if you would try and divulge the facts

Oh and when did i say that i left my bitches alone together you clown.I have never said that.And yet again i say that ANY two dogs could have eventual problems. Any two dogs could get on like a house on fire too

Now I am confused that having done so much research and taken advice from so many experts you are needing to ask how to house train a baby puppy when your confidants must have told you what to expect.

Just shows how advice can differ dependant on what you want to hear, I have never heard an experianced breeder advise even the experianced to have more than one pup at a time, just goes to show I don't talk to those with enough experiance.

> Oh and when did i say that i left my bitches alone together you clown.I have never said that.And yet again i say that ANY two dogs could have eventual problems. Any two dogs could get on like a house on fire too

You really are rude as well.

It is not a good way to get help and advice but then you don't really want it do you.

Re: housetraining your puppies. You need to take them outside (pads only confuse them - perhaps you could put some turf on a tray on your balcony) at least once every hour when they're awake, after each playtime, after each meal, after each nap, and after any excitement - and stay with them till they 'perform'. Housetraining is a fulltime job for several weeks, and housework can only be done when the puppy's asleep. The more effort put in by the owner, the sooner the puppy will learn.

Yes, any two dogs can fight. But the closer they are in age and rank (same age, same sex is typical for causing friction around the time of adolescence), the more likely it is. And bitches are less forgiving than dogs - fights are more likely to be serious.

Calling people a clown isnt going to help at all.

Well Iam not getting the advice i was seeking regarding house training. I have had four dog of my own now and this is the first time i have found it difficult to house train. I have cracked it now though but no thanks to anyone on this forum.Not one of you experts have a picture of a staff but all discredit genuine staffy lovers and proven specialists of the breed. Thanks for displaying your lack of knowledge on the breed.And for the clown with the link where is the link on a genuine staffy website stating that 2 females are worse than 2 males. i can back up my argument can you ? fool

> The adult male was called Bobby i had him for 12 years before he was euthanised due to bowel cancer.

I was referring to Vegas, your partners dog.

Please refrain from calling other members names on the forum it is against the terms of service.
There is a well known saying that applies to all dogs whatever breed - Dogs fight for breeding rights, bitches fight for breathing rights.
I do hope for your two puppies sake that this never becomes an issue for you.

I have spoken to Barbara. 

In essence, Charlene, you could be in for a tough time with your two bitches.  I shan't quote the conversation verbatim, but it went along the lines of two bitches could get along quite well, BUT, it will take a lot of hard work, you will be required to feed the dogs separately (of course!), try very hard not to give too much attention to one dog rather than the other, i.e. make one jealous, lots of training, lots of activities, stimulation, exercise BUT it could all change once hormones kick in.
Add to that that you currently live in a flat, which I would assume (as you were asking for advice about house training) could make things slightly more challenging than if you lived in a house with direct access to a garden, I think you will have to be very very dedicated to making this work.

House training - about that.  With respect, if you're having to ask advice about house training (and nothing wrong with that at all), then I would say you still have much to learn.

I think, perhaps, you may need to seek more advice from other Stafford owners too, as I feel after talking to Barbara, you may have taken some of the things she told you out of context.

As we have all said time and again, two males can be worse, two females however can be just as bad once the hormones kick in.

Not one of you experts have a picture of a staff
And?  In fact if you look closely I do.  And if you look at my profile you will also see my web page.  Dear me.

Barbara would have told you that she did not ever recommend two males then ? She stated the categorically. but thanks YOU were helpful though i have stated already that this is the first time i ve had a problem with house training in any of my dogs as this one seems a little slow.And Vegas is my dog she is only 17 weeks old and in the photo you are talking about she is 15and a half weeks old. she is muscle bound i know.

Well at least now you know that one of our posters to this thread really does know what she's talking about in regard to Staffords and their training so at least she can't be labelled as not knowing the breed at all, excellent you feel you've cracked the housetraining prob finally, all being well now then perhaps you could calm down and stop the insults, were all on this forum because we love dogs, we all have our own favourite breeds but that doesn't stop an interest in many different breeds, there is always something new to learn no matter how long you've been in dogs which is over 50 years in my case, everyone is entitled to an opinion as its an open forum so at times we have to agree to disagree, if we do that with good grace then there is no hard feelings on whatever matter is discussed.

Yvonne.

> Barbara would have told you that she did not ever recommend two males then ?

Actually no, not categorically, as Barbara has 3 males in her own home currently.  But that's by the by really.

The point is you're asking for advice re: house training, we have offered advice with regard to keeping two bitches of similar ages together, and it seems to be offending you.

I had a general chat with Barbara, gave her all of the information you have given us in your posts.
As I said, I shan't relay my conversation with Barbara verbatim, primarily because it's too long!

I'm not sure that all people are trying to discredit 'staffy' lovers at all.  You've been offered advice, it's your choice whether you take it or not.  But please do NOT speak as if you know any of us or call people names, it's just not necessary.

I'll say again for the final time, there's nothing to say keeping two bitches together won't work, just that it will be much more hard work.

Not sure why you're mentioning the pictures of your dogs, so I shan't answer that bit :-)

this is the first time i ve had a problem with house training in any of my dogs

Presumably it's also the first time you've had two puppies at the same time. There's your answer.

I don't think this thread has any more to offer.
Jeff.