The Queen is Head of the Church in this country because of the actions of Henry VIII (or we would still be a catholic country following the Pope).  It is our tradition, and no one has thought it proper to change this.  Although I am a practising catholic, I would prefer we remain a Christian country rather than descend into atheism and learn about tribal gods and cult figures (does this include Satan?)  My opinion and no offence to anyone intended.

>we arent a true religious state, nor should be. there should be no official church, the monarch should not be head of any church. no bishops in the parliament. religion and state should be completely separate, as it is in turkey, america, and france.

I suggest that you move to one of those countries then :) ;)

>religion and state should be completely separate, as it is in turkey, america, and france.

You think America isn't ruled by religion?

Here, here Mel

no, i think the kids in this country are insane because of the nature of our country...much of which is to do with greed and the american model of the unbridled free market economy, which has now shown to be corrupt and a failure, even by its arch proponents. and is now starting a process of death, as did the equally corrupt  system of soviet communism.

i would not specifically teach school kids about cults and satan, as i dont think schools are the place to indoctrinate children with religion. but i do agree with academic education about different beliefs systems (many of which dont equal religion), and yes, satanism in one of a list of dozens.
espesh as satanism is an invention of christianity

no, i dont think america isnt ruled by religion. thats part of its problem. bush the born again nutter.
i think that america has a formal separation of religion and state, its part of their constitution.
as does turkey
that's the way we should be.

I don't think the kids of this country are all insane or anything approaching it and those that are behaving so are not the ones that have been brought up with a religious framework to their moral choices.  In fact you seem to contradict that idea yourself by blaming it on the "unbridled free market economy".

> no, i dont think america isnt ruled by religion. thats part of its problem. bush the born again nutter.
> i think that america has a formal separation of religion and state, its part of their constitution.

Again another contradiction.  If, America is ruled by religion despite having a formal seperation of religion and state then it can be reasoned that there is no benefit in doing so as clearly whatever exists in America is due to other causes.

Just to clarify re my original post - I think there is a big difference between giving children a grounding in the Christian faith, and the particular comments I was concerned about. We actually take our children to Church and they have all been baptised. But I also think it is perfectly possible to give children a good moral grounding should you choose not to follow any faith - my grandparents have followed Humanist principles and have strong morals underpinned by love for all their fellow humans and belief in equality, and whilst my children have clear morals I just do not wish them to be indoctrinated. 

I agree totally with your post. My son's were educated in a state school and did study various religions when they were small i took themn to the church's play school, my choice.
My parents were christian, by that I mean we were brought up to be kind to everyone and non judgemental. My parents had a dislike of RC as a religion due to the fact that a man could beat his kids, drink his pay, and still be "forgiven" because he confessed it as a sin. My family believe the way you live your life is what makes you a christian not going to chiuch (any denomination).I feel that children and adults have to have a grounding in religion to be able to accept or reject the existance of God, or whatever your higher power is called.

My children went to school to learn, i would not set myself up to know better than the education authority what they should learn. They learnt their "religion" for want of a better word from the way our family live their lives 7 days a week not on a sunday.

Neither boy says they believe in God, their choice. Im not sure if I do, I just try to be the best person I can be. I try to help my friends, I try not to judge anyone by colour or creed I think that makes me a christian person. But if I did not want my child educated in a certain way i would remove them from that school, I was always more than happy with their education and more importantly so were they.

I think we should not involve our kids in politice, religion, or adult things until they are old enough to make their own minds up, its worked so far for us.

> You think America isn't ruled by religion?

Slightly changing direction, but did anyone see the Louis Theroux documentary on the Westboro Baptist Church in America. It was (I assume) repeated this week. I watched it a few days and my head is still reeling. What a very frightening programme.

M.

> You think America isn't ruled by religion?

Slightly changing direction, but did anyone see the Louis Theroux documentary on the Westboro Baptist Church in America. It was (I assume) repeated this week. I watched it a few days and my head is still reeling. What a very frightening programme.

M

It's horrific isn't it!  I saw it a while back.  You can wiki the Church for those who haven't seen it to get an idea.

>Morals generally come from faith/religion! As the saying goes - cleanliness is next to godliness!

:-o

Well, I'm shocked!  I am atheist, grew up agnostic (in other words too frightened not to believe) but then saw the light.  My dad and I are atheists but have higher morals than many God-fearing people I know. Morals come from your parents, first and foremost whether or not they are religious.

I actually get quite cross when religious people assume they have a monopoly on goodness.  People were around long before the bible and if there hadn't been good people before then how did they get that far?

>Morals come from your parents, first and foremost whether or not they are religious.

And who taught your parents? Was it, perhaps, taught to them in school (as well as by their own, perhaps religious, parents)?

It makes no difference at all as to whether you are religious or not.  Fact is there are plenty of people committing evil deeds in the name of their religion and plenty of people who were brought up in strict religious confines who go on to commit evil crimes so it rather negates the argument of religion being the teacher of morals.

> I am Catholic and a fairly regular church goer.
>

and as a catholic do you approve of your version of christianity being labeled as 'wrong' at a state school?

> and as a catholic do you approve of your version of christianity being labeled as 'wrong' at a state school

I don't believe this has been the case since Cromwell's time.

I was taught Christianity as it is accepted and practised in the Church of England.  Other denominations and other faiths were covered, but our religious practise, hymns, Harvest festivals etc were based on British traditions and practise.

At home and on Sundays we went to RC church and being from European extraction we got our Christmas presents on Christmas Eve.

> I don't believe this has been the case since Cromwell's time.
>

well that would depend on the teacher :)

but by wrong i ment the 'unofficial' version. the action of teaching belief as part of state education- by practise of hymns, prayers etc- suggests that other faiths are not the right one.

anyway, thats my opinion.

> by practise of hymns, prayers etc- suggests that other faiths are not the right one.

Erm most religions have some sort of prayer, most religions have some form of observance. By practicing  the one that is accepted for the country does not mean non believers or people with other faiths are covertly being indoctrinated or held up as being in the wrong. Surely by excluding them that would be the case. " You cannot attend out Carol service because you are a non believer " for example.
Also when my own children were at school there were children in the school that didn't attend assemblies they had their own taken by one of their parents does this not still happen in some cases?

> Erm most religions have some sort of prayer, most religions have some form of observance. By practicing  the one that is accepted for the country does not mean non believers or people with other faiths are covertly being indoctrinated or held up as being in the wrong

by making children attend these times it does.

> Also when my own children were at school there were children in the school that didn't attend assemblies they had their own taken by one of their parents does this not still happen in some cases?

in some schools, certainly not in all.

don't get me wrong, i don't think we should be the same as the americans and have huge debates on school prayer and arrest kids for praying in school etc. but i think it definately should be optional- which in many many cases it is not.

i am a religious person and i would not ever want to deny anyone the opportunity to practise their faith. belief is a wonderful thing that not enough people are blessed to have anymore. but belief is personal and found and held for deep and important reasons. it shouldn't be forced on kids.

my best friend went to a private school. she has told me that when they had C of E religious assemblies they also at the same time ran muslim, catholic and hindu ceremonies and any kid could go to any of them or none at all.

i think this is a better system as no one is forced to attend a religious event that they do not wish to and there is room for everyones beliefs :) not only that but apparently many of the kids chopped and changed to see different services or go with their friends and see what they did. a great way to learn i think.

anyway, i disagree with most of you but whatever, opinions have been aired and now i'm off to hum christmas songs :)

>but belief is personal and found and held for deep and important reasons. it shouldn't be forced on kids

So who will teach the children about it in order for them to to be able to make a decision? ;)

as i've said TEACH it, don't indoctrinate it.

and the parents of course.

You can't teach it if the children aren't there to listen. So it needs to be compulsory.

right i seem to be being totally mis read here. i did not say at any point not to make classes compulsory, classes should be compulsory given that school is compulsory

attending/participating in religious practise should not be.

I think I understand what you are saying.  Religious education should be about learning about religion in an academic way but practising religion should be in a religious setting, namely church, synagogue, mosque, etc?

You mean like the driving theory test but without ever driving a car? Or like learning the rules of netball but never actually playing the game?

Personally I'd be very sad to see the end of school nativity plays and carol services.

exactly

> You mean like the driving theory test but without ever driving a car? Or like learning the rules of netball but never actually playing the game?
>

jeangenie how can a child who does not believe something fully take part in the experience anyway? they can't, its just uncomfortable (speaking from experiance)

saying that, i don't have a problem with kids being invited to attend/take part in things, including nativity plays :), as i think its a good way to learn about something.

i visited the Scottish Parliment when i was at school- didn't take part in the debates or votes though, i visited the court to, but was not a lawyer, judge, witness or indeed accused. both however were educational and informative.

i think school trips to different places of worship in RE would be great :)

>i think school trips to different places of worship in RE would be great

Oooh yes, I think that's a great idea.  I'd like to go too :-)

>jeangenie how can a child who does not believe something fully take part in the experience anyway?

Okay - so no child being brought up in a Christian household should take part in a hindu (for example) ceremony? And no Buddhist children should take part in a nativity play? That seems somewhat insular and isolationist, not encouraging multi-culturalism.

>i think school trips to different places of worship in RE would be great

I agree - in secondary school, when a child has a firm understanding of their own family's faith.

> Okay - so no child being brought up in a Christian household should take part in a hindu (for example) ceremony? And no Buddhist children should take part in a nativity play? That seems somewhat insular and isolationist, not encouraging multi-culturalism.
>

i did not say that and thats a blatant twisting of what i did say. what i said was actually i have no problem with children being invited to take part in such things. if your chosen interpretation was what i ment then what a hypocrite i would be! given that i have on many occasions attended religious events not of my faith (for example Midnight Mass following my conversion- couldn't help it, its a lovely thing :) - or my friends protestant Communion)

in reference to the quote you chose i was talking about fully taking part spiritually, actually engaging with the religious experience which is impossible without the faith.

> I agree - in secondary school, when a child has a firm understanding of their own family's faith

to be fair i can agree with that, perhaps not for the same reason though. i think they might not get much out of the experience before then. as to the firm understanding i think that comes from, in part, comparing it with others.

School assemblies are part of the 1944 education act along with the educational classes.

and the act says?

All state schools in Britain are required to offer pupils,subject to a parental withdrawal clause, some form of curricular religious education as well as a daily act of collective worship. It was updated in 1988 however the requirement for a broadly christian based assembly was upheld.

Astarte we have different legislation and a more current set of procedures - the Education (Scotland) Act 1980

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Publications/2005/03/20778/53820 here is a link to the ed act's views on religion in schools

>I agree - in secondary school, when a child has a firm understanding of their own family's faith

What wrong with a child experiencing all faiths?  Why wait until the child has been socialised into the family's faith?  Are people worried that children might choose a religion different to their parents'? What's wrong with that?

>Are people worried that children might choose a religion different to their parents'?

No, it's not that at all. It's like expecting a child to comprehend the subtleties of 'War and Peace' before they'd mastered 'The Village with Three Corners'; or mastering calculus without knowing their multiplication tables. You can't make a valid comparison without understanding.

I've really had to sit on my hands for this one!

However, I will ask a question of all those who believe we should be NON-religious as a Country, rather than Christians!

What are you all doing for Christmas and WHY? Shouldn't you all be at work seeing as how you don't believe in Christ? Why on earth would you 'celebrate' a Religious Festival if you don't believe? Isn't that rather hypocritical of you all??

Just intersted is all...;)

> What are you all doing for Christmas and WHY? Shouldn't you all be at work seeing as how you don't believe in Christ? Why on earth would you 'celebrate' a Religious Festival if you don't believe? Isn't that rather hypocritical of you all??
>

Well I was actually brought up in a branch of the Christian faith which believes Christmas has nothing to do with Christ and should not be celebrated at all. People have very different ideas about the relevance of Christmas, and personally I say, let us not judge our fellow man but wish them all peace and goodwill regardless of belief. I shall think of the values common to us all, and remember everyone for whom this is a difficult time of year -  and wish everyone a very Happy Christmas.

Interesting Ruth, were you bought up among the Brethren Church then? I think a lot of the 'branches' of Christianity have a lot to answer for I'm afraid...too dour and grumpy!

Rightly or wrongly Christmas may even appear to be 'hitched' from the Pagans!

However, it is a time of year that we celebrate Christs' birth and I think you'll find the majority of the Christian Church do! I think it's a time to celebrate, time for families, time to remember everything we have and be grateful for it!

I believe in the love and Joy of Jesus, I TRY to be loving and kind(but fail miserably...mainly on here!) I think most religions should be about tolerance, anti-racsism, celebrating diversity and enjoying life!

Most academics would take the view of Christians and Moslems 'sharing' the same God, they have similar parables/stories about Noah etc.

I just don't get why people are so anti Christianity when we are a Christian country!

Although I do have to say I find the commercialisation of Christmas particulary depressing...and why on earth can't people cope with the shops being shut for a couple of days??!!;)

(I was brought up in the Free Presbyterian Church.)

> I just don't get why people are so anti Christianity when we are a Christian country!
>

I don't find people to be anti Christian. I meet many Christian people, and many wonderful people who don't profess to be Christians too!
I agree that Christmas is a lovely time to celebrate and be grateful for what we have, yes it can seem somewhat commercialised at times, but many people take time at Christmas to think of others and help those less fortunate.
I think the nature of faith is deeply personal and can't really be imposed on others but all can share Christian values and enjoy the real spirit of Christmas.

I am not anti-religion.  I think it's great for those who believe.

I've got a tree and bought presents, always have done as it's the socialisation bit again.  Don't care if anyone thinks it's hypocritical because for me it's not about Jesus it's about me celebrating having my family all around me and my celebration has very little to do with the bible (in my head). Of course if I could choose to have my celebration day I'd rather have it in the summer thanks. However, I can't say the same about the rest of my family as some of them are believers. 

While we are on the topic of hypocrisy it seems hypocritical that Christians gets hooked into the commercial side of Christmas when JC himself threw the market traders out of church "Take these things out of here! Stop making my Father's house a marketplace!" Although he was referring to inside the temple I wonder if you think that he might have thought the same about commercialism in his name?

>it seems hypocritical that Christians gets hooked into the commercial side of Christmas

Who says they do? I think it is the non Christians more :)

I think it's most people across the board but it's more relevant where Christians are involved IMO :-)

Well yes it would be ...but I have seen no proof anywhere that they are as involved as you seem to think :)

Oh well, without going into this properly we will have to agree to disagree. :-) We are both going by what we see or think we know.  Because my mum has been unwell she has been unable to get to the shops so I thought I would buy something for my lot for her to give them because she was getting upset about it yesterday.  I picked up a couple of books in Waterstones and turned around to see the queue to the back of the shop.  I put the books down and left. Went into River Island to pick up a scarf and again the queue was really long again.  What's driving people to shop to these ends? Christmas?  Of course, I don't know how many of them are of Christian faith, I could make a good estimate if I knew how many people in this country profess to being Christian though. I'm guessing the majority of British people would say they are Christian, so although I have no proof I would be surprised if I was that far off the mark.

Ha - isn't the internet brill?

>I'm guessing the majority of British people would say they are Christian, so although I have no proof I would be surprised if I was that far off the mark.

72% claim to be Christian according to this article:

http://www.scottishchristian.net/articles/truths-about-christian-britian.htm

>> 72% claim to be Christian according to this article:

lol, I don't believe for a second that the shops are packed to the rafters with only 28% of the population. ;) 

Honeybee
But I also think it is perfectly possible to give children a good moral grounding should you choose not to follow any faith - my grandparents have followed Humanist principles and have strong morals underpinned by love for all their fellow humans and belief in equality, and whilst my children have clear morals I just do not wish them to be indoctrinated.

totally agree

Whistler
I think we should not involve our kids in politice, religion, or adult things until they are old enough to make their own minds up, its worked so far for us.

agree with this as well.