Hi all,

As some of you know I have just started ringcraft with my sibe, She has done obdience lessons since she was 12 weeks old and has always learnt to sit for treats etc. This however is causing a problem at ringcraft, when trying to stand her in front of the instructer so he can have a look at her, I put the "bait" in front of her nose (even hold it a bit higher so she has tp reach for it) but she keeps sitting down :rolleyes: The instructer there has told me that sitting down when the judge is looking at a dog is taboo in showing.

I have tried all week to get her to stand propley but she keeps sitting Arghhhhhh.Also when you have to place their feet apart so that they stand nice she waggs her tail put her ears back and lies on the floor for you to tickle her
belly. How am I going to get her stand propley when she thinks I am playing, when the instructer runs his hands over her she starts to lick his hands etc. She is a very loving dog I think this is going to be her downfall.

I look so out of place there, there are breeders there and there dogs are as good as gold so when it is my turn to trot round the mat I feel as though every one is lauging :o People are so clicky there, they push in front of you so they can have another go in the ring etc. Only last week I heard a man say to another man there "Thats a nice sibe" (I know he was on a about me as it the only sibe there). And the other man turned round and said "Yeah, but it could be better if you no what I mean" CHEEKY git I though I was only 2 foot away from him, and the best part about it the week before he was telling me how nice my dogs were and was sitting next to us saying " Any help you need we will help you " I know I am new to the dog world but surely everyone was in the same boat as me at sometime I feel like saying "Hello its only ringcraft get a life and enjoy your dogs"

There moan over, I have got ring craft tonight and to be honest I do not feel like going because of those people,

Any advice :D

Yes ...develop broad shoulders and thick skin ;)

Keep up with the ringcraft and the practise at home ...she will get it ..even Hudson can now do a stand (whether or not he STAYS in a stand is a seperate thing :) )

HTH

Melody

Dog are able to tell the difference between sit & stand, just keep working on the stand, don't know what method you use to train, but it is very easy to do with the clicker. And no one will mind if your dog sits in the ring but it must stand at least long enough for the judge to look at it. Judges expect puppies to sit and fidgit and the only person to mind if your dog misbehaves in the ring will be you as the better behaved the better the judge will be able to see how nice it is. Ja:)kie

PS stop teaching your dog to sit when you stop when doing heel work, get it to stand instead, tell the instructor what you are doing first.

Hi

The funny part of it is when she sits she is a nightmare to get back up.
I end up picking her up she is 9 months old and not the slimmest of sibes in fact she is heavier than my 2 year old male sibe. Vet told me it is puppy fat but when she is older she will have to loose a bit. I am only 5ft 2" and do not weigh more than 9 stone wringging wet, so it is quite commical to watch me trying to heave her up :D

Great minds Jackie :-D, I was going to suggest clicker also use a different type of collar/lead for ringcraft. Stick in Heidi s*d other people, enjoy yourself and your dogs.
Anne

Anne

What sort of collar/lead do you suggest?

I always use haltis, will they be okfor ringcraft?

A couple of suggestions I'm hoping someone more experienced can elaborate on:

<<even hold it a bit higher so she has to reach for it>>

When you train a puppy to sit, holding the treat higher gets them to raise their head and put their bum on the ground! Try holding the treat at nose level, in front of her nose, then move it away from her nose a few inches, with the command stand as she stands to move after it. My dog has never liked doing a stand. He figures why stand when he can sit, and why sit when he can lie down! But this works with him.

Where do you stand with her? At the shows I've seen, the exhibitors stand facing the dogs and bring one knee forward. I believe the idea is that you train the dog by walking towards it, so it stands to move backwards, and with training, the knee movement alone becomes enough to get the desired results.

LynnT

A Halti will not be approprate for showing, and at Ringcraft you are trying to mimic a showring.

I would initially stand at her side when trying to stand her, adn put one hand under her belly and stroke it saying stand. another way is to place your hand against her stifle so that she cannot fold he leg to sit.

With the bait hold it out behind you at he nose level, or below, but out of reach. If you lift it above her head that will cause her to sit

Try this hold your lead quite short attqached to a half slip (rolled or all chain) collar, in you left hand, standing at the corner of the dog, put you foot in fron of the dog so it cannot step forward easily, and hold the bait away from her in your right hand, and command stand. If she does so, give her a tiny piece of the bait.

don't worry initially about the placement of the feet, unti. she gets the hand of standing.

Once she knows stand, then slowly move yourself more in front of her, and use your lead to encourage her to stand square.

When trotting to keep her steady, give very little checks on the lead to keep her from pulling to the side, and poraise quietly when she moves collectedly on a slack lead.

My oldest Elkhound didn't go to ringcraft until about 16 months, and found it confusing at first, but got the hang of it, and got to be a good shower.

Hi
My dog is 2 1/2 years old and I have only been taking him to ringcraft for 7 mths he had never done it before this.
He had been taught to sit for food so I had a hard time teaching him to stand for the classes not only that but he was hand shy as well he also would take my jumper or coat with me attached to it around the ring much to the amusement of everyone else and me being new to all this was a nightmare. But now I have him standing not only for ringcraft but at home as well, he does not sit on the judges hand when they go to the back of him, and they can now check his teeth, I never thought we would get there with him but I have met some wonderful people both at the exp shows (not brave enough to go to any of the big shows yet) and at my ringcraft classes.
Please carry on training him just remember everybody else's dogs had to learn too! Just smile and imgine a little lady being walked by her dog instead of the other way round.

Do not use a halti. Use the sort of tac at ringcraft training as you will use in the ring, I would have thought a slip, either leather, chain or fabric. ask the pups breeder. Jackie

i know absolutely nothing about showing - so my advice may not suit - but I have had trouble in the past with one of my dogs not standing (i do obedience training) - it was exactly the same problem Heidi, because I had taught sit with treat above head, he automatically sat when a treat was in the offing, also with most training classes the dogs are expected to sit as soon as you halt whilst doing heelwork, so I imagine this would be confusing for a show dog? there is a lady at training who shows her two cockers so instead of doing a halt and a sit, she does a halt and a stand when practising heelwork. I had to teach decoy a separate stand - treat at nose level and bought forward at the same height whilst saying 'staaannd' (I draw it out so its completely different to the short 'sit') so if you can picture - treat in front of nose drawn out level - the command (whichever you use) - and then I used the other (free) hand to tickle under the belly - I found this keeps them standing - of course you dispense with the tickle once they have the idea! there was a lady with a pointer at class who had same problem and she uses the tickle now! Hope it helps - probably a load of old rubbish - but it worked for decoy! As for nasty comments heidi, rise above it - some people just thrive on being horrid! julie:)

Hi Jullie

Thanks for the advice, I have also got a fabric lead/collar Iwill use that tonight instead of the halti.

How will I get her from stop licking the judges hand

Dogs find out what is the usual sort of collar and lead when in the show ring and use that for the ring training, your breeder will tell you what to use, may even give you suitable equipent that they are not using. Jackie

Hi dogs
I am going to book ringcraft classes for my pup.Also was going to take her to obedience.After reading your post
wont stand.Would you suggest i only go to ring craft.Only real reason for going to take her for obedience,is that
i take my other dog their.I do hope to show her,so dont want to confuse her or me to much.What do you think.
linda

Hi
With the welcome you have received its no wonder
new comers to our sport don`t last very long!Shame on the people who run your ringcraft,what a way to encourage new members.Its true you will have to develop a thick skin and broad shoulders especially
if you have a nice dog,but I suspect and I`m sorry to say any competative pastime has an element of
nastiness(for want of a better word)attached to it.
Have you not got another club in your area?

As far as getting your dog to stand you have already
been given some good advice,what I will say is you are going through the most difficult time for you and your dog,Why?Because you are both novices and this equals hard work for you both over the next few weeks-practice and repetition-it will pay off and in a few weeks time they will not only be saying what a nice Sibe he is but how well he shows himself off
wagging tail and all.Good Luck and don`t give up.
Carole
P.S. Appologies for going on a bit but is there any need for such unfriendliness at this level!!!!

Don't think it is un-friendliness, just banter, give as good as you get, but don't be cockey, ask for help, you'll get it , I'm sure. Ja:)kie

Sorry Jackie if I got it wrong but I didn`t get the impression from Dogs that it was thought to be banter
(thought that mean`t jokey,good humoured)Anyway I hope when they go tonight they are made to feel more welcome and part of the `Click`no doubt in a few weeks time when the dog is standing like a rock
and friends have been made all will be forgotten.

I wouldn`t go to a club if there was no banter and fun
but could that be something to do with the fact we have a bar.
Carole

LindaS

Just from my experience over the last few weeks I would not to obidence as well as showing one or the other, unless of course you do the obidience without the sit command and get your dog to stand on command instead of sit. If I had a choice I would do the ringcraft I have a new pup know he is 8 weeks old and I will be only doing the basic obdience with him but I will not be learning him to sit on command for food.

Peenyforem

We also have a bar at ringcraft ;)

My boyfriend has told me he would rather it be justme and him and learn things the hard way than be in a click like that :) The week previous I was talking to these people that passed comment on my bitch and they were the most pompus,social climmbing people I have ever met. Dont get me wrong they had beautiful dogs and were breeders that had won many shows (they were judges themselves) but all night all I heard was "well my dogs won this and that" and comments like "Did you see that dog they enterd in that show down so and so last week I dont know how they had the nerve to enter it" :rolleyes: blah blah blah. He was the sort of person where every one sat round his dogs all night and he went on and on about how good his dogs were. He told me he was a judge at crufts so when I asked him to have a look at my dog and tell me how she compared to the breed standerd he soon shut up and said I do not know to much about sibes :rolleyes:

I have been out with Saskia today she has walked on her lead great she touches my hand on the command touch and will run at the side of very close with her head held up and tail. Still the standing bit has far to come but we will get there in the end. :)

Heidi, it will come I'm sure. We had BIG trouble with Thor, our male Aussie - he qualified for Crufts the first time we took him to a Champ Show (he was only entered because Loki was) - and when he got into the ring, he moved pretty well for my other half - then let us down (and made himself forever known) by sitting down, offering the Judge a paw then rolling over for a tummy tickle :-) :-) :-). Needless to say, he wasn't placed - but everyone remembers!

In which case find another ringcraft to go to, it should be fun for both you and the dog. If people are being unpleasent then it is not the sort of help you need, after all you go to learn, if you were perfect, and none of us are, there would be no point in going. Change now, find somewhere that people are helpfull and interested in both you and the dog. Ja:)kie

Oh! forgot, don't worry about the dog licking the judges hand, most do, one of mine ate the judges buttonhole and another head butted the male judge in a very tender place when he squated down to talk to her. They both got a place but I think the gentleman judge could not see the rest of the class for the tears in his eyes. Ja:)kie

Hi Heidi

Sibes are a free standing breed, it is frowned upon if you stack them or place their feet. If your Sibe is built right it will stand square. Also if you are planning to show your pup anytime soon I would suggest you get that excess weight off now. There is no need for a pup to be overweight. As a guide you should be able to feel the ribs when you run your hand along their side but you should not be able to see them clearly. Its quite a fine line which is why there are a few very underweight sibes in the ring.

Hi Dogs
timing is often the key to success-as another member said keep the bait down level with the dogs nose and IMMEDIATELY say stand and give her the treat straight afterwards and 'good girl'.Try it at home when shes not expecting it and repeat several times a day.After a few days lengthen the time very slightly between command and treat....Above all -patience-it will come eventually.

dogs-i find the easiest way to deal with a sitter is to set it up expecting it to stand with your chosen tibit, when it sits just talk to it in a silly non checking voice while slowly walking forward into it-this normally makes them hop up and backward from you, at which point give it a titbit-it has to know you mean it and youre coming its way-they soon cotton on, then if you see the thought cross theyre minds just move slightly forward on a foot, they normally think again---its worked everytime for me---it might be best practised at home first or you might have the softly softly lot complaining!!!

CHRIS

Hi :)

When you say sibes are free standing does this mean I will not have to place her feet like the other do? Some dogs at ringcraft feet are spaced out more than I could do myself :D How should her tail be when the judge is checking her over someone told me last night that it shoould not be curled over is this true?

I feed my pup on supa dog complete diet for puppies I have stopped all treats and chews but the weight does not seem to be shifting any tips? :)

DOGS, free standing means that you leave your dogs alone, you do not touch the feet, tail or head. Walk you dog into position and tell it to stand & that is how you leave it. As training progresses you can teach your dog to move one of it's feet into the correct place so it is standing square, also where you want the tail and head. If your dog has good conformation it should stand in the correct way without your having to do any adjustment but if you do need to adjust either with a lead twitch or by telling it to move it feet and stand square. This will all come with training to start with just get it to stand, fingers under the tummy will sometimes help. Ja:)kie

Hi Heidi

As Jackie said free standing means you walk your dog into a stand. As I said if it is built right it will stand right. Your dog can have its tail either up or down when standing, but usually they will hang down unless the dog is very excited.

As for food, how much are you feeding her of the dry food each day, she should not normally need more than about 8 ozs unless she is getting a lot of exercise.

I think one of the problems of ringcraft classes is that the people taking it don't and can't know about every breed, standing them etc. It isn't so bad if hey admit they don't know but a friend attending her first class had the dog taken from her and a demo of how to stand it given. She was told to stand it four square...... The dog was a GSD!!
Anne

Chris

She is 9 months old know and I have cut her meals down to 2 a day for the last month or so, she has about 1 and a half mugs of food a day although she does not always eat it all and the other dogs normally come and finish it off for her :rolleyes: I think it is the treats that have done it personally I am going to give her a bit more excersise to slowly at first. She is great in her self she can run about and jump around just as much as the others it is not her belly that is fat it is more across her back and behind you can grab the skin and give it a wobble. ;)

you can grab the skin and give it a wobble.

You can do that with my dog and she's most definitely not overwieght.

Fiona
x x x

DOGS, if you have still got her on puppy food I would change her on to junior or even performance adult. Jackie

Your best bet would be to measure out her food, and then take a handful out of it to use as treats! That way she will not put on weight.

Sibe bitches are about the same weight as Elkhound bitches, mine eat 200grammes of a good quality food a day. If they are a bit over what I would like I reduce it to 150grammes for a week or two until they are just so.

Also the quality of the food can affect the firmness of the muscle. Those whose first ingredient is cerel seem to produce a stodgy muscle tone, whereas the ones where meat is the first ingredient seem to produce a firmer bvody irespective of excersis in my experience!

That is why it is important that if you want to show you ask the breeder of your dog for help and also attend shows and watch your breed to see how they are shown, and what sort of collar & lead (tack) they are using. How are they groomed, are they put on a table, are they weighed and what sort of speed do the handlers move them. If you do your home, or rather show, work you can tell the instructor how the dog should be shown. Ja:)kie

Couldn't have said it better Anne- I travel from Rotherham to East Ardsley in Leeds every Monday to attend a GSD Breed Only ringcraft so I don't have that problem:) They also tend to have more time for you since in a lot of breeds the numbers are falling and they're keen to recruit:) Some of the top GSD people have helped me in ringcraft no end and I can never thank them enough for it:) Even to the extent where a ringcraft session has been changed so it's literally just miming a full show just to teach me more:)

Stacey x x x

freestanding and stacked are the 2 different ways of showing a dog, -with some using a mix of the two---by freestanding it means you stand infront of your dog keeping its attention, and i agree if a dogs made right it should stand right, but it also possible for a perfectly well made dog to decide to stand close or have one leg further out from the other-there is nothing stopping you stacking [placing] your dog then coming around the front to bait it, which would be classed as free standing, do whichever suits you and your dog best, its part of the fun of handling, working out which way suits you and yours best!

Dizzy, I free stand but I do it from behind my dog, well I do with some of them, and then there are those who would rather dance. Jackie

Hi Dogs,
I'm fairly new to ringcraft aswell. We've been very lucky as one of the trainers is a working judge. He suggested putting your foot between the dogs front paws and gently pushing from underneath the stomach to get the pup into stand, after perservering for about 3 lessons it paid off and my pup got the message. I now just turn him/walk him round when he sits in the queue and he's sussed to stand for the judge/trainer, although not for very long :D
Good luck,
Julie

taffy, thats more or less what i suggested-advanse on him/her. i used to be a trainer at my local classes, so have ways around most delinquents
jackie h, -im intrigued. tell me more, you mean youre standing behind your dog, facing its backend, what is the dog concentrating on then to keep its attention, or is it too worried it may gey a poke in its rear if it moved :D

Meant behind from the judges point of view, :D the dog standing across me and I hold a hand out to my side and a a hight to get the head as I wish. At least thats the theory. ;) Started doing it when I have hounds that fidget, as it's easier to control them with a knee or palm of the hand. Or even the scruft of the neck when desperate. No If the holder of the liver cake stood behind them they would just turn round. Ja:rolleyes:kie

ISSYSMOM

Your dog is most probably fine, although a few people have know mentioned her weight saying that she is a bit over weight for a sibe, she is very broad across her back and shoulders and has a rather large behind :) I just want to nip it in the bud before it gets to out of hand I dont think they have a a class for fattest bitch :D ? It is so hard not to give her a treat as she has these sulky looks that make you melt. Still got to be strong and resist temptation :) (Anyone would think it was me on a diet :) )