Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts/concerns about RME - Religious and Moral Education taught in non denominational state schools? I ask this because my limited knowledge led me to believe these days children were meant to be taught in a multi faith, inclusive way - a kind of overview not from a single religious perspective. What I am personally finding is that my children actually receive what seems to be a very biased personal religious opinion with little or no mention of other major faiths. I would strongly prefer them to be left with an open mind to make these choices for themselves and for the teaching to be focussed on tolerance and inclusiveness. Has anyone else got a take on this ?

I thought these lessons were optional now anyway!

I went to a CofE middle school & we were taught lots & lots about the Christain faith but nothing on other religions, however when I went to high school we did RE in the first year & were taught the basics of other faiths e.g. basic stories & beliefs after that is was an option to be taken at either GCSE or A Level - I don't think many took it though.

I suppose it depends on the school. My daughter has had to do research on Islam, Hinduism and Judaism in recent years. Other religions have been touched, but only in passing. As my ex-husband was brought up in India, and I lived in Ulster during the start of the troubles, we have always discussed religion openly. I'm afraid that is also the reason I will not believe in any one religion. I've seen too much heartache brought about because of it over the years.

I have always assumed that our RE should be based on Christianity as this is the Official Faith (church of England) and that other faiths are mentioned.  This was what was taught when I was at school.

My experiences were the same as Gembo.

I do think there should be more of an overview, understanding and tolerance of other faiths.  But I think if a school wants to align more to the Catholic or Protestant Church then that is their choice.  Faith schools very often get better exam results overall.  It is wrong however when the school actively teaches that all other Faiths are "wrong" or "evil" but I have yet to come across that in Schools.  As long as the School can still be independant of the Church then fair enough, I don't see how it can be a bad thing.  We really really need moral grounding in schools, too many people do not appear to have any morals at all these days.  Morality is certainly more important than Religion, but how do you teach morality without examples (actively found in all religions)?

I don't have a problem with Faith and Beliefs - just certain Churches.  The Baptists up here took great pleasure, seriously, in telling me I'd go to hell.  The Penticostal's were of a similar opinion.

The Head of State is Christian, therefore our whole country should be based on Christianity.  I have no problem with that, after all, when in an Islamic state we have to adhere to their moral code when visiting.  I had to be completely covered (apart from head) when I was in Malaysia or risk causing grave insult.

My daughter didn't go to a non-demonational school, but an all girls RC high school.  Many of the girls, probably around 40% were of Indian/Asian parents and it was explained at interviews before acceptance of any pupils that this was a Catholic school which taught Christianity however all faiths were respected and discussed openly in RE teaching.

My daughter, her friends and peer group are all very tolerant of other denominations and have some knowledge of the faiths practiced by other cultures as a result of their RE lessons - all a good thing IMO in view of the diversity of ethnic groups in the modern UK. 

That said we are a Christian country and IMO state schools should be leaning towards teaching the morals and beliefs of Christianity first and foremost - not that I am implying other faiths do not have good morals and equally respectable values and beliefs :)  However I do believe it is very important to tutor on multiple faiths to encourage understanding and tolerance in our youths who can of course decide for themselves which if any doctrine they will adopt.

Carrera went to a private girls school, in her RE class all faiths from around the world were discussed and debated, but also included in this were the right and wrongs of abortion and they would have to write essays listing arguements "for and against", also in the lessons discussed things like human trafficking and such, not just about religions.
Jane

I agree RME is important, I thought in a non denominational school it should not be exclusively Christian and also have doubts about too much bias in suggesting Christianity is the only 'correct' religion.

Agree with Terri on this.  I'm an atheist but am respectful of and see the value in learning about all religions. 

My children's primary school was predominantly white British yet they occasionally held celebrations for the ethnic minority children of which there could have only been about 5%.  At 7 years old my son had impressive and interesting things to tell me about Seikhism (perhaps not the spelling though).

Hi Honeybee

> I thought in a non denominational school it should not be exclusively Christian

I'm guessing that's a matter of interpretation since, as I've said, my feelings are that this is a Christian country therefore non denominational to me isn't really any more than not being Catholic or not being Protestant :)

Personal opinions of course - much the same as the teacher(s) giving these lessons and the Head or Board of the school overseeing the content or lecture plans ... 

Hi Teri
My interpretation of 'non denominational' was not affiliated to any particular religion at all, maybe it just means Protestant! But I do take your point about this being a Christian country and I'm quite happy for the teaching to be mainly from a Christian perspective, I guess it's the individual interpretation I am a bit uncomfortable with. I feel that even if most of the information is about Christianity the children shouldn't be told this religion is the only true path to God etc.

At my 4 nearest high schools they HAVE to take R.E. at GCSE .

My youngest is at a CofE school.
They are taught about all religions, and know more than myself on them. I am very happy with that as we are non religious, and thats what it says on his school paperwork (unlike it used to be that if you werent religious they put CoE!!!)
Something came up yesterday that I was not happy with, and dont know if to say something or not.
Sam didnt want to go to carol service at the local CoE church, and said he wishes he could stay with * * and *
They dont have to go to carol service. And knowing the family of one of them, I know they are Muslims, so that is fair enough.
.Now I said Sam has to go and then it got onto praying, And he said at least Mrs * doesnt make me pray.
Mmmmmmmmmmmmm, Now if he is non religous, why should he be made to pray????
I am quite behind them that he is involved in everything, so that he can make up his own mind in the future.
But if he is non religious, should he still be made to pray????
I would much rather he did what I do when in church, Sit there looking at everyones feet quietly and listen to every thing, but not join in, and thats what I say to my kids to do when we are at weddingsa and funerals etc.
Lea :):)

I don't understand why people send their children to a religeous school , then ask for them not to be taught that religeon . And don't say that it is because it is the nearest - if you don't want your child educated that way - send them to a community school instead .( OK rant over ! )
You need to ask your school how many weeks/terms they are spending on each religeon , and which they are doing .

Um, Around here we have 3 CoE primary schools and a catholic primary school ;) ;) ;)
Thats it!!!! So not much choice!!! (And I sent mine to the one I thought was best, not the nearest)
As I say I am not against what and how they are taught religion in anyway shape or form. As I believe they should learn about all religions and make up their own minds :):)
What did nark me was the fact he has been told at some point he had to pray when he is not religous.
Lea :) :)

I think it all depends on the school and the area you live in.
The school i went to was mixed, though i have to say in those days was predominantly white.
We went through all the major faiths during secondary school and had day trips out to all of the places of worship in our city to learn more.

I was raised CofE, though i'm a non believer myself, as i have grown up i have come to realise to me personally that  the belief in yourself is worth so much more(to me anyway). It was spending time in a buddhist(sp) centre that made me think that meditation,relaxation and yoga were all to do with improving one's self.
I think with all the travelling i've done i'm a bit of a free spirit anyway.

Just read you first post again.
I think its great to learn about different faiths as along comes with it new cultures as well. I think its good for children to learn about others and the way different people live. It i would hope means that they would be more accommodating to others in this world.

For those who don't learn about other religions in their schools, can i ask what you know about them now, how did you find out? Has it made any impact difference in your life by not learning about other religions/faiths??

My sons def. had instruction in Muslim, Hindu, Judism and other faiths so did my niece I remember her visiting a local temple ect so I feel ours were and are well grounded. Oh mine are early to mid 20's now.
But we still do have religious schools in the area by that I mean CofE.

I was educated by Quakers at my boarding school and I have carried some of their principles with me always. But I have encouraged my lot to go and seek out any religion that they are intested in and see whats its like. But as I said previously they seem pretty well grounded to me and more important from my point of view is I like them all as people, there all kind and gentle people.

I was at mainly independent schools, and we didn't learn about 'other' religions until senior school, when it was considered that we had a good enough grounding in our own faith to be able to properly comprehend the differences and similaritiies between the different faiths in the world without becoming confused.

My son, on the other hand, was taught about the major faiths from a very early age, and now has no belief at all through being totally confused - too much, too young.

Umm I feel that way about sex education!! I think you can have too much too young.I think schools that teach various religions do promote tolerance and thats a v. important lesson. I find many religions do not teach the same tolerance hence many problems we have. I remember my grand parents only really supporting the Sally Army as they were on the beaches when the troops came ashore in WW2. They are v. big in USA still for that reason. I wish it was not always  (religion) such a cause for war and strife, but thats another story I guess.
I wanted to be RC once as there church smelt better than ours!!! and it was richer (more gold) fickle youth I was about 9 I think.

> Just wondering if anyone has any thoughts/concerns about RME - Religious and Moral Education taught in non denominational state schools? I ask this because my limited knowledge led me to believe these days children were meant to be taught in a multi faith, inclusive way - a kind of overview not from a single religious perspective. What I am personally finding is that my children actually receive what seems to be a very biased personal religious opinion with little or no mention of other major faiths. I would strongly prefer them to be left with an open mind to make these choices for themselves and for the teaching to be focussed on tolerance and inclusiveness. Has anyone else got a take on this ?

well first of all good for you :) i think there are to many people today who are still very closed minded about this

at my school RE (religious education)- which i only actually did till 2nd year- covered the major religions and gave equal consideration to each. it wasn't terribly in depth (what is at that age?) but we did christianity and a couple of its different forms, islam, hinduism, buddhism and then we had interesting moral issues to discuss. i remember once we did a class on the ethics of picking a transplant patient from a list (very hard to do!).

but then i was very lucky at my school in the range of subjects and quality of most teachers.

if your concerned about the quality of education your kids are getting i think you should absolutely feel free to complain.

> But I think if a school wants to align more to the Catholic or Protestant Church then that is their choice.

i couldn't disagree more. i think if a parent wants to send their child to a private religious school then thats up to them (though personally i wouldn't agree with it) but state schools should not adhere to or preach any religious doctrine. its hurtful and offensive to the kids who don't believe in what ever the school is teaching.

i say this as a kid who was mocked by the other children for 'not knowing the 'Our Father'. Actually i did but i did not say "for thine is the kingdom, the power and glory for ever and ever, Amen." because at the time i was Catholic.

its entirely possible to teach morality without indoctrinating religion. its entirely possible to teach religion without advancing it.

while technically britain is a christian country you'd be pushed to find most people practising it- in all honesty how often do you all attend church? i believe that if you want your child raised in a religion its the parents job, not the schools.

> if your concerned about the quality of education your kids are getting i think you should absolutely feel free to complain.

I did complain! Though would prefer to call it offering constructive advice...!!! I felt my son in particular was being told what he must believe -I  personally think if you force one religious point of view upon children it prevents them from really thinking for themselves (well that certainly happened to me)  Fortunately this was taken on board and it has been emphasised to the class that they had been hearing individual  opinions which they did not necessarily have to agree with. I am pleased because I strongly feel everyone is entitled to their own beliefs but should not pressurise others - especially suggestible children - that they are absolutely right! In my experience it tends to involve fear (the consequences of non belief) or bribery (the result of belief) whereas I hope for my children to find their own truth with no guilt or pressure.

> In my experience it tends to involve fear (the consequences of non belief) or bribery (the result of belief) whereas I hope for my children to find their own truth with no guilt or pressure.

quite true.

I was mocked by other children because I didn't have the right socks believe it or not.  That's unfortunately what kids do.  Doesn't make it right, but it's a sad fact of life that I learned (and played up to lol) very early in life.
Education begins at home, religious or otherwise, I couldn't agree more.  The Catholic school by me when I was growing up had a high intake of islamic and athiest children - the communion was optional and only the Catholic kids and teachers took part.  The school had structure and better exam results, the kids were also better behaved. The Protestant school I went to was nearer, but the Spring and Christmas services we went to were not optional lol.  Other than that I cannot say that I ever had religion forced on me at school (at home it was a different story lol!)  I still think that the school should be allowed the freedom to choose though, as the parents should be allowed to.

Kids need something to believe in though (much like Santa and the Tooth Fairy) otherwise they end up thinking that Rangers and High School Musical are "higher powers".  I dunno, maybe I just don't have any faith in kids these days.

> still think that the school should be allowed the freedom to choose though, as the parents should be allowed to

many parents don't get much choice as to which school their kids go to due to catchment areas etc. why should they not have the right to send their kids to a school that only provides religious education rather than doctrinal education?

yes kids need something to believe in but i don't believe what that is should have anything to do with the state.

> the Spring and Christmas services we went to were not optional lol.  Other than that I cannot say that I ever had religion forced on me at school

that is having religion forced on you.

> That's unfortunately what kids do.  Doesn't make it right, but it's a sad fact of life that I learned (and played up to lol) very early in life.
>

yes, but many kids would change their socks. if you had raised your child to a particular faith and they decided not to do it any more because it made them a target would you not be upset? just because its 'what kids do' about anything it does not make it ok, and its a tad more important subject than socks.

Apologies in advance for anyone this offends and it is definitely NOT pointed at any one person here on this thread

My youngest 2 children have been bought up Catholic but have, for the moment, both chosen to go their seperate ways from the church. They went to RC Junior schools and now attend Grammar schools where RE is inclusive of all major religions.

Having been bought up RC has not done them any harm and has given them a unique perspective into a faith and all that it entails :) They choose to be none religios now but still attend RE lessons (well Sophie is in the upper 6th so doesn;t need to but still has RE as part of her General Studies A Level)

We are a Christian country by definition which is why it is considered important that chilren have some sort of religious education to their every day lives. If it is treated by parents as none optional just like Maths and English then it becomes just another lesson. It is only when parents get on their high horses (cant really say moral high ground as I don't consider them to be there) about their children being *forced* to learn about a religion that the children pick up on this.

When are people going to learn that these are children and should be doing what they are told to do until they leave school ...then they can opt out of whatever they want. It is called growing up!

yes, but many kids would change their socks. if you had raised your child to a particular faith and they decided not to do it any more because it made them a target would you not be upset? just because its 'what kids do' about anything it does not make it ok, and its a tad more important subject than socks.

Ah but not to kids ;-)  I am most certainly pro-choice but my child will be brought up in a way I think appropriate, when they are of an age to make an educated choice then I will swallow my pride and let them.  But until they can make their own choice, and understand it, they will do as they are told.  Kids need structure and discipline for their own safety and balanced state of mind.  Trust me, the carol service and easter/spring thing with school was a piece of cake compared to my homelife. 

We are not talking about the Religious schools of the past here, that made you say Grace before every meal and made you memorise Biblical verses and told you that you would burn in Hell unless you said your prayers: This type of force is certainly wrong and very outdated.  It's also what made kids turn their backs on religion once they left school.  Every child should be taught RME without doubt, they should also be made aware that the UK is considered a Christian country, but they should never be told that any other Faith is wrong or bad like I was.

Melodysk, totally agree with you.

> When are people going to learn that these are children and should be doing what they are told to do until they leave school ...then they can opt out of whatever they want. It is called growing up!

well this was a parent complaing originally. also just because a child is told to do something they still should be permitted objection if its for a reason. JMO.

> it is considered important that chilren have some sort of religious education to their every day lives

yes, religious education is important, it spreads understanding and diminishes discriminatione etc. its also very interesting :)

required religious participation however is just wrong. faith is personal, the decision to engage in religious activity is a solemn one and i don't feel it should be forced onto a child who does not wish to participate.

i don't have a problem with parents raising kids to a faith- thats what was done with me- and then i made up my own mind later (as your girls did to melodysk) but i don't think my teachers ever had any right to tell me what to believe.

there were those on the forum a couple of weeks ago requesting that some of us cease to blaspheme as they found it offensive. i consider asking children to participate in prayer/hymns/services they don't believe in/actually understand (and they won't really as school RE is nowhere as full as Sunday School or Catechism) to be a far worse blasphemy.

> We are not talking about the Religious schools of the past here, that made you say Grace before every meal and made you memorise Biblical verses and told you that you would burn in Hell unless you said your prayers: This type of force is certainly wrong and very outdated.

its wrong and outdated for a public institution to enforce any religion. yes its not so extreme now but i don't think you can ask every kid in a class to attend church- they or their parents should be given the option. many if not most would still go out of interest or to stick with friends. and it would be educational and perhaps lead them to faith.

> Kids need structure and discipline for their own safety and balanced state of mind.  Trust me, the carol service and easter/spring thing with school was a piece of cake compared to my homelife. 
>

but others homelife deliberately does not involve religion. why is it ok to force their children to practise? and its entirely possible to have structure and discapline without being religious.

> Ah but not to kids ;-)

to many kids it is. and pretty much certainly to their parents.

> required religious participation however is just wrong

If the school is Cof E or Catholic then I think religious obserance as practiced by that faith shodul be compulsory.

In state schools a broadly crhistian assembly and prayers as we had daily  when I was at school should be part an parcel of a Christian upbringing in a Christian country.

Even in church schools now daily worship is no longer the norm.

>others homelife deliberately does not involve religion. why is it ok to force their children to practise?

Some children's homelife doesn't involve good manners, cleanliness or non-violence. Surely you'd agree that they should be exposed to an alternative, whether or not they, at that time, want to? They can't learn what they're not taught.

> Some children's homelife doesn't involve good manners, cleanliness or non-violence

it's hardly the same thing! teaching a child morals, health and hygeine etc is not the same as indocrinating faith.

i am not advocating an avoidance of religious education as i have said several times, i belive good RE classes are very important. i think a good education requires being taught about religion- not to be taught to have a religion.

personally i feel that choosing a faith is far more important than that.

>teaching a child morals, health and hygeine etc is not the same as indocrinating faith.

Morals generally come from faith/religion! As the saying goes - cleanliness is next to godliness!

>

> If the school is Cof E or Catholic then I think religious obserance as practiced by that faith shodul be compulsory

and i agree if its a private school. i think in a pluralist country- which is what we are supposed to be, not a christian one, we simply have a majority population of people who class themselves as christians- its inappropriate to dictate the 'correct' faith to anyone.

> In state schools a broadly crhistian assembly and prayers as we had daily  when I was at school should be part an parcel of a Christian upbringing in a Christian country.

britain is not a solely christian country, it is pluralist and a christian upbringing is the responsibility of christian parents.

out of interest i notice no one answered my question about church attendance. christian doctrines all advocate a need to attend regular services/mass etc. if it should be the case that your children are taught to adhere to the christian faith in school should they, and indeed everyone, be forced to attend church?

>> Morals generally come from faith/religion! As the saying goes - cleanliness is next to godliness!

originally perhaps, however its entirely possible to non be religious and be a moral, upright and indeed clean person.

IMO until secondary school children should be taught either the faith of their parents or the official faith of the country. This is still officially a Christian country (with tolerance for other religions), so that is what should be taught in state schools.

>christian doctrines all advocate a need to attend regular services/mass etc.

Do they? Do they not require worship, not particular services?

> IMO until secondary school children should be taught either the faith of their parents or the official faith of the country.

i don't disagree with the need to be taught the faith of a childs parent- if only to help them understand their parents better. i found my catholic upbringing to be extremely educational and while i have chosen a different faith i would not wish to have not had that.

but that was my mothers faith and the faith of half my family, it was important to them i learned about these things. but what they were teaching me differedfrom what my school taught. this is confusing for children.

churches, mosques, synagogs, sunday school, catechism and home are the places for faith and its practise. school is for education and i don't think its right to dictate to someone what they should believe.

> Do they? Do they not require worship, not particular services?

catholics cannot take communion without the intervention of the priest in both confession and in the act of communion. while protestant variations are not anywhere near so strict it is expected that people attend services to gain instruction and celebrate the community of christ.

it might not be essential for many but it is expected.

According to the 2001 census 71.8% of the UK population claimed to be Christian, with only 5.4% claiming a non-Christian religion. This is what our laws are based upon, and laws are easier to understand and obey if you understand their basis. Therefore state schools should teach Christianity.

no its not what all of our laws are based on... well perhaps in a round about way.

for example, christianity says that conception is the point that life begins. as such it is held by christians that abortion is a sin. yet abortion is legal and freely available in this country.

additionally civil partnerships are a sin, yet are legal.

we could boil it down further to the fact that i am wearing 2 different threads right now and no ones stoned me, and that crops of different types can be planted side by.

our laws are based on western liberal morality that originated in morals past from Judeo-christian beliefs that in themselves developed from prior cultures. and yes, i think its important to study these beliefs to see where our cultures basis comes from but our modern law is not based only on this faith. we apply modern judgements to these and temper them to fit the beliefs of the culture of our time.

its possible to learn about and understand christianity without practising it.

i am familar with the census and its figures, but while 71.8% did catagorise themselves as christian

1) 28.2% did not. if you moved to a liberal muslim country such as the UAE would you be happy for your kids to be taught that the Our Father was the wrong prayer to say? or would you prefer that the teachers explained about islam and explained about christianity and both could be appreciated and whichever deemed appropriate by the parent and child practised?

and 2) do these people themselves all actually understand what it is to be a christian of whatever denomination? or do they simply feel that thats the box they fit into because of their schooling? do they practise? do they all pray?

faiths more important to me than ticking a box, and i think if its so important to a childs parent that parent should teach it.

> This is still officially a Christian country (with tolerance for other religions

teaching the 'rightness' of christianity is not tolerant. it undermines the beliefs of other groups, be they children or adults who wish to be teachers. if every state school was to teach christian doctrine as correct, practise christian assemblies etc how many teachers of other faiths do you think would be comfortable with that?

>its not what all of our laws are based on... well perhaps in a round about way.

Not all of our laws, but the basics are from the 10 commandments.

>if you moved to a liberal muslim country such as the UAE would you be happy for your kids to be taught that the Our Father was the wrong prayer to say? or would you prefer that the teachers explained about islam and explained about christianity and both could be appreciated and whichever deemed appropriate by the parent and child practised?

I would probably send my child to a boarding school over here. :-)

> do they all pray?

If the number of people who say "Oh my god!" is anything to go by, then they either pray or are hypocrites ... ;-)

I am Catholic and a fairly regular church goer.

As I understood it the official Faith of this country is Church of England.

Great post Mel, reflects my children's schooling and current attitudes, my thoughts too.
I  do not particularly go to Mass any more although I did with them as they were younger,  I do believe in foundations. My son who did General studies at 'a' got a very respectable grade(his best of the 4 he took).
It is our responsibility to do the best by them that we can as they grow up, but allowing free will, indeed encouraging free thinking. To help them end up well rounded.

Karen

i have a huge issue with this

we arent a true religious state, nor should be. there should be no official church, the monarch should not be head of any church. no bishops in the parliament. religion and state should be completely separate, as it is in turkey, america, and france.

there should be no official religion taught in schools. no prayer in assemblies. no blasphemy laws.
there should be a topic teaching school children about different beliefs, and the cultures and history of these.
this would include different religions, tribal societies, cults, political ideologies, etc.

i certainly would not increase the religious interferance in the state by adding other religions to officialdom. i would remove the one we have.

I would hazard a guess, and a stoning, that the kids that are out in the streets causing problems are the ones that have had little or no "religion" in their lives.  Religion introduces boundaries to kids, notice I said introduce, not maintain, it can help the parents instil boundaries.  Astarte, you are quite right about being moral etc and still not having a religion as such, but for those families that are having problems with their kids it might help.

Everyone has agreed in Freedom of Choice.  Many have agreed that all children should have the "experience" of Church/Religion at an early age, until they are of an age to make their own decision.  I fully agree with this group of people.  My own OH was taken to church as a child by his mother even though they were not a church-going family.  But she wanted him well rounded.

I don't know any other forum you can have such a good discussion as on here :-)