Hi

I am a newbie! Hi! I have some questions so here goes the long story short...

I am new to my breed and have spent about 18 months studying dogs in the ring and looking at histories. Choose the perfect stud dog (although it would be a complete out cross this was my plan even before the evil programme 'Pedigree dogs exposed'!)

Took my bitch to the stud on the 9th day of her season, she was showing all the right signs cocking her tail and was humping her half sister, litter sister and mum. Got her down there and she was well up for it. After a while of playing he mounted her and entered but she squeeled and pulled away. The stud owner did an 'internal' and said that my bithc was a bit tight so she thought she was not ready. We took her back on the 11th day and my bitch was again well up for it, really cocking her tail round, mounting him. He  moiunter her again and entered but slipped out. Next time he mounted he entered for about a min and then slipped out. Then they both lost interest. I took her back the next day, day 12 and again no interest. I left her at the stud and by the 13th and 14th day she was mounting the bitches but every time the dog was left with her she sat down and growled at him. We have brought her home and she is happy and her normal self. She is a bit quieter and a bit more keen about food, it is a week to the day that she had the first lengthy slip mating... What do you think.... Any advice greatly apprecaited.

Who was handling the dog and bitch? It's normal for a maiden, however ready, to lose her nerve somewhat and pull away, so she needs gentle but firm restraint, with the dog's handler making sure that he hits the spot accurately.

We just let them get on with it, when he mounted and was on for about a min the stud owner held her dog and made sure he was in and I was holding my bitch. He was skipping on his back legs (hopping from one to another) and I have read that this a sign he is (sorry to be crude) firing.... She has been a bit clingier towards me and my partner seems to think she is a bit different. He says she is a bit snappy and worse for food. I am going to take her to my vet when she would be about 4 weeks to see what he thinks... This is my first time and although I had read up and researched I was not prepared for this.

Is this an experienced stud, or more importantly an experienced stud handler? I would have had good matings from both the first two occasions. As JG says it's perfectly normal for a bitch to squeal and pull away, sit down or spin round. You should have been firmly holding her collar to prevent her moving. With my dogs I was always guiding them in and as soon as they were there I would latch on behind them and hold them there till they tied - job done :-)

I would think it unlikely your bitch was in whelp but you never know. If she isn't and you decide to go back to the same dog next time I would try and find an experienced handler to help with the mating.

What are you not prepared for?

Have you got a copy of The Book of the Bitch by J.M. Evans and Kay White? If not, I thoroughly recommend you get one asap, because it's full of vital information that you'll need whether she's taken or not.

> He was skipping on his back legs (hopping from one to another) and I have read that this a sign he is (sorry to be crude) firing.

It is a sign he's in the right spot. When they enter a bitch their back sort of flattens out and like you say they are standing on tip toe skipping from foot to foot. From the times we've had manual collections I can say that they don't actually ejaculate till a few minutes later, or at least my dogs didn't.

I have the book of the bitch and I have spoken to many experienced breeders before I took her to stud. I went to this owner because she has fabulous dogs and to my surprise when I got there I saw everything. Her house her garden her set up and she was brilliant. She helped me and gave me loads of advice. She was brilliant and I think it was probably my inexperience that let us down more than anything. We are all set up for puppies (when and if they eventually arrive) and I have got everything ready including the vet! I think what I was not prepared for was this 'slip mating' thing. the main problem is many people are full of well intentioned advice and my sister in law (who is a breeder) keeps telling my partner that she thinks my bitch is in pup and my partner is being a nightmare about it! Some are saying she could be some are saying no way! I am prepared if she is but I am also not too concerned if she is not. I have already decided that next season I am going to take her to the vet for fertility testing so we definately get the right day. My main concern for was for my bitch's welfare and I did not want to force her and make her resent the whole mating process and end up with a bitch that will not mate. I am hoping that this will all go down to experience and next time I think I will be even more prepared. I have heard so many stories where 'the bitch WILL mate' that is scared me a bit and I was determined to go to a stud where it would be a pleasant experience... Perhaps I have made a rod for my own back!?

just get her scanned at 21 days and then you will know :)

Slip matings can produce pups, so don't be disheartened until you have taken her to the vet for confirmation either way.

How long ago now is it since the 'mating'? Some bitches will act as if they are pregnant even if they haven't been mated, so a change in behaviour is no clear indication.

I have had two litters from slip matings .
Only thing I would say is I think you should control the whole mating hold the bitch and the dog so that no injuries occur to either , bitches have been known to turn on the dog especially if she isnt ready or pull away and cause him injury.
I think it puts your bitch at ease to know you are close and talking to her and same for the dog .
If this mating occured 4 wks ago you could now have her scanned.

I use a matetel to get correct dates for matings and after the mating you can also get a reading to let you know if she is taken.

I too have always thought and been told by other breeders that the 'Tiptoe Dancing' is when they are 'Delivering the goods'.

My own two boys have always tied within 30 seconds of the dancing, so i do believe this to be true, obviously some dogs can be different, thats just my own experience.

I have also had a litter 2 years ago from a slip mating, with clear tiptoeing, without the dancing i would say pregnancy was unlikely but if he did deliver then there is every chance your girl could concieve.

I would say though, i would always be there to control the matings in my breeds as they could very easily cause injury to each other if one was to panic.

Time will tell, good luck

I too had a slip mating last year with a maiden bitch. He was there only for seconds but she produced puppies from that mating.

The mating was 8 days ago now. She has not continued with her season (ie there is no bleeding now after running clear) she has had phantom pregnacies before so I was not too worried about her change in behaviour. She had us fooled a couple of seasons ago made us think she was pregnant (I was not convinced as I keep a really close eye on her when she is in season and if there are male dogs around she does not go off the lead or is left alone with them!) and it turned out to be a phantom. She lost al of her fur from her chest and her nipples started to swell ect... The thing that is making me most suspicious is that after the slip mating both parties lost interest. The dog and my bitch just were not interested in each other, it was really wierd like a switch had been flicked. It was after this she started the sitting down and growling at the dog. When they had the slip mating and I was holding her she was quite happy really at ease. I do think that the initial squeel on day 9 was a combination of shock and not being ready. She is a right hussy and like I said really egged him on on day 11 when the slip occurred. Thanks for all of your advice and I will be keeping everything crossed but like I said before I am not too worried as we can try again in 6 months. I will be more prepared and I am going to ask my sister in law along too... All of this is going to turn me grey!!! LOL!

Out of interest what is Matel and can I get it from my vet? Does it work like a doggie pregnancy test?

Another thing... What breeds have you experienced slip matings producing puppies? I have heard that its quite common in Staffs and English Bull Terriers. Is it more common with specific breeds or is it all down to right day, right time and how fertile both parties are? These are the sort of things I have not been able to find out. Most books just say that to get a sucessfull mating they should tie although a slip mating should be counted as a mating.... There is not much literature about slip matings.....

http://www.peoples-web-design.co.uk/matetel/matetel_works.html

apparently they are having problems with producing this at the moment so I found this one , the website is near up and running they told me they can send out the product I have a email address for anyone interested.  http://ovacycle.com/ovacycle_clinical_trials.asp

No its not a dog pregnancy test its an ovulation test .

You can also get Ovatel which is exactly the same but half the price of MateTel, it's available on e-bay: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/OVATEL-SALIVA-MICROSCOPE-OVULATION-TEST-TESTS_W0QQitemZ120345146894QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_Health_HealthCare_RL?hash=item120345146894&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14&_trkparms=72%3A1301%7C66%3A2%7C65%3A12%7C39%3A2%7C240%3A1318

If she is a maiden she will need to be firmly held when the dog enters as she will jump 5 feet in the air!! I would have thought the stud owner would know that!

If the dog was in the bitch for a minute or more and did the 'ladder climbing' bit (I always take this as a sign that the dog is in the right place and doing his job when I see this action), then I  would think the job was done even though there was no tie.

time will tell if it was enough.

> If she is a maiden she will need to be firmly held when the dog enters as she will jump 5 feet in the air!! I would have thought the stud owner would know that!

Its helpful advice I am after, but thankyou anyway.

I would have thought the stud owner would know that!

I didn't take that comment as ill intended, rather more concern for you as a novice, who thought that you'd chosen an experienced stud dog and stud dog owner, may not know that this is usually the case? :)  I have never mated a bitch in 25 years where I haven't held my bitch firmly from the front and the stud dog owner has controlled the back end. :)

In my won breed matings are far more natural affairs than in some other breeds it would seem.

Owner of stud and bitch offer discreet supervision and assistance.

Dog and bitch are allowed time to meet and play, and allowed to mate as naturally as possible.  When things get serious a hand in the bitches collar to reassure, or perhaps a little more if she looks likely to struggle in the tie.  The male may be helped to turn, or bitch steadied to allow him to safely so do.

It is actually rare to need to hold a bitch tight or guide a dog, and this would only be done if one is absolutely sure the bitch is ready but just a bit silly, or the dog getting tired/frustrated trying to hit the mark.

I have helped at the mating of a large working breed and was quite shocked at the level of stage management with four people to effect the mating with both canine parties very willing.

hi there, 
i bred my bitch last year for the first time and expected a tie, but being a maiden she had no clue what to do, the end result was a slip mating of all of about 30 secs or less!!!! as soon as he got off we noticed (sorry for being crude) he was all hanging out and dripping still, so i immediatly thought that it hadn't happened, and off he went to lay down for a sleep?? my bitch also was not interested then.  I was convinced she was not pregnant until about 2 weeks later, she calmed down so much and started being sick most days. so i decided to go to the vets on day28 and just get her checked over, i thought maybe she was having a phantom. to my amazment he said def pregnant and thought he could feel 5 pups.........5 weeks later, 3 days early she went into labour and produced 5 pups. dont feel disheartened just yet you never know!!  on sunday after a tiring night with my other bitch who had emergany c section and sadly spayed we took her to stud again and tied as soon as i walked through the gate, no problems, such a hussie!!!!!!    good luck xx

On the other hand I have never had a litter when a bitch did not tie, though do know of one surprise pup after a brief slip mating.

The Vet thought the bitch had an infection!

The whole thing is that if you have a tie you know the dog ejaculated, without one you don't.

Might explain why slip matings are successful?
Liz

The Reproductive Anatomy Of The Male Dog
(Taken from an article on the internet)

Much of the Dog's reproductive anatomy is visible on the outside. He should have 2 testicles carried in the scrotal sac.
If the dog has none or only one testicle, he shouldn't be used for breeding. Retained testicles aren't normal and are caused by a genetic defect. They can cause problems inside the body, including going cancerous.
A dog with a single, visible testicle can produce sperm, breed and reproduce, but the genetic defect will be passed on to his puppies.
The undescended testicle cannot store live sperm and is usually very small and underdeveloped.
The testicles hold sperm for reproduction. The bulk of sperm is produced by the prostate gland.
Sperm looks like tadpoles and is very temperature sensitive. It is stored in the testicles, which are held in the scrotal sac, away from the body. Body heat as well as cold will kill sperm.
In the summer time, the scrotal sac is automatically carried lower, away from the body to keep the sperm cooler.
In the winter, the sac is carried higher and closer to the body, again to control the temperature of the sperm.
A healthy dog will pass 250 million or more sperm, in one ejaculation, not all of which will be healthy. Some may have deformed heads or tails. Some swim in circles instead of forward.
However, just 1 healthy sperm, swimming up the bitch's vagina, propelled by a rapidly moving tail, to the fallopian tube and penetrating an egg, will result in a puppy. The extra sperm that are not required to impregnate eggs, will die in about 4 days.
The dog's penis, is used for passing urine and for transmitting semen. It has a small bone in it, as well as a bulb near the base, on either side, which swells 5 times it's normal size with blood, once the dog has it's penis inside the bitch and begins thrusting movements, prior to ejaculation.
This bulbous swelling, along with the bitches vaginal muscles, ensures that the 'tie' cannot be broken until all the semen is pumped from both testicles.
By the time the bitch has 'tied' the dog, he has already ejaculated and enough sperm are on the way to the fallopian tubes, to fertilise her eggs.
The 'tie' only assures that the seminal fluid will not leak back out, so the slower sperm will have the chance to swim up to the fallopian tubes.Normally, the sheath, which covers the penis, will slide back once the swelling is gone down. You should always check the sheath is back in place after a mating has finished.
In 24 to 36 hours, new sperm will have been made and stored in the dogs' testicles.

.

> It has a small bone in it, as well as a bulb near the base, on either side, which swells 5 times it's normal size with blood, once the dog has it's penis inside the bitch and begins thrusting movements, prior to ejaculation.

You could just as easily have made this part bold though which seems to say the exact opposite?

> The bulk of sperm is produced by the prostate gland

The above is certainly not true!  The bulk of the ejaculate is prostatic fluid, but the sperm is produced in the testicles.

Whoa! Brilliant thankyou! We have decided that we will wait until 28 days and off to the vets we go! Again, we will not be too upset if she is not pregnant because we plan to try again and with a bit more experience ubder my belt fingers crossed we will get a tie! One of my friends has said that a human pregnancy test will work. My understanding of pregancy test is that it contains an antiboby which detects a human hormone produced when you are pregnant. Bitches also produce a similar hormone. My understanding of hormone antibody detection is that an antibody is specific to a certain type of hormone, however, this antibody will pick up hormones that are isomers (or similar in its chemical structure) of the original hormone. Has anybody used a human pregnancy test with any success. One would imagine that the dog hormone would be very similar to the human hormone as we are all mammals...? Without checking chemical structures of both hormones and the antibody I would assume it would work. I can not remember the names of the hormones (HCG (human CG) it think in humans, CCG (Canine CG) in dogs...). Also suspect that my bitch is showing the 'discharge' that indicates she is preganant, cloudy odourless very similar to the clear discharge that appears when they 'run clear'

Dont think a human pregnancy test would work as bitches have the same amount of hormones present whther its true pregnancy or phantom so the likely chances are a false positive - i may not be totally correct but i'm sure its something like that!

Hello

Unfortunately pregnancy diagnosis designed for humans (simple DIY or immulite HCG test) do not work in K9s.
There is a test kit available for around £54 for a box of 5 test which tests for the presence of the hormone Relaxin.This is effective from day 30 onwards.

> he was all hanging out and dripping still, so i immediatly thought that it hadn't happened, and off he went to lay down for a sleep?? my bitch also was not interested then.

exact same thing in my case! He was 'climbing the ladder' a little longer than 30 secs though! My bitch was not interested AT ALL after the slip mating. Some have said that if a bitch and a dog think/know the deed has been done they do loose interest. I am feeling a bit impatient now and jsut want to know one way or another! Would love for her to be pregnant but time will tell!

> Unfortunately pregnancy diagnosis designed for humans (simple DIY or immulite HCG test) do not work in K9s.
> There is a test kit available for around £54 for a box of 5 test which tests for the presence of the hormone Relaxin.This is effective from day 30 onwards.

Thanks for this... I was not sure and everyone knows what 'old wives tales' are like.... As mentioned earlier - just want to know now.... Will have to wait :-)

you say it was an outcross??? so what breed have you put you (beagle i presume) to??

When I say an 'out cross' I mean that the dog and bitch are not related - obviously they are the same breed.

> I am new to my breed and my aim is to breed healthy fit for purpose puppies and I do not worry about out crossing as I feel you do not have to keep lines to produce healthy show quality pedigree puppies

To clear this -  'outcrossing' I mean that Dam and Sire are not related. It would appear that a couple of tme things I have posted have been taken out of context/misunderstood. I am sorry for this and please understand that I am not very experienced and joined this site to get advice and help from people 'in the know'. I joined so that I could have sensible opinions and so could make the right choice for me, my bitch, future puppies and my breed. If I get something wrong please pm me so I can clairfy, please remember that no matter how experienced you may be now you were in my shoes once upon a time :-( I am not an idiot and share your love for dogs and thier wellbeing.

The above is certainly not true!  The bulk of the ejaculate is prostatic fluid, but the sperm is produced in the testicles.

Apologies. Typo error on my part. Too late to Edit now.

Glad it was just a typo and not a flawed article. :)

thanks for clearing that up....certainly in at least one of my other breeds, when "outcrossing" is mentioned then we are talking about bringing in a different breed entirely...such as when the kc allowed a few years ago when they allowed the outcross to the Dumfreishire hound :( :(