Pity we don't know where she was when she did this, after all if we are to give her the benifit of the doubt in that she thought she was "copying" training behaviour seen on TV why then did she have to find(and I am assuming here!) a secluded spot, surley if you think you are doing right you would not feel the need to do it in private! If however you hide away so no one may see you then it follows that you KNOW you are doing wrong. Even if you are 12.
Aileen

No not an adult... but JG you have grown up children at 12 years old did they not know the right from wrong? Made errors of judgement but the basic grounding was there ....
I taught my children as I was taught from the cradle
"Undo to others as you would have done to you"
And
"To love your neighbour as your self"

Asking ourself those questions before we act might prevent an awful lot of what goes on.....(soap box back in cupboard now)...

Covers pretty much everything.IMVHO

Good point Merlot!

>JG you have grown up children at 12 years old did they not know the right from wrong?

To a certain degree, but not to the same level as he does now. At 12 he was still a child, as was I, and my husband, and everyone we know. If we're honest we all look back at things we said and did, and cringe. But with continuing education (in Life, not just Academia) and support we've all developed; the suggestion (not from you, but from others on this thread) that she is a monster who should be vilified for the rest of her life, is incomprehensible. Yes, her actions were terrible, but at 12 there's plenty of time to turn her around and make her a potentially model citizen.

> If we're honest we all look back at things we said and did, and cringe. But with continuing education (in Life, not just Academia)

I still do that to things I said and did yesterday!!!

>I still do that to things I said and did yesterday!!!

So do I! That's why I think it's wrong to condemn the girl and write her off for life; otherwise we'd all have been written off as being beyond the pale many times! We should never stop learning, developing and improving ourselves.

I have not seen the video but did read the sun very briefly, it was too awful to look at in depth. If this was videoed by an adult I find it odd that someones thoughts were quick enough to get out their phone to film and then send it to the papers. If I was walking past and saw something like this happening my first thoughts and actions would be to shout and try and stop it not start filming  Come to that I wouldn't even think of filming. But then I am v.v. old at 50 LOl

I agree that this young person does need some kind of assessment, depending on the findings help from one of the many agencies    available and hopefully with support with and from her family.. We cannot judge without knowing the childs background. I do feel that a ticking off and grounding is not really likely to help or get through that this is entirley wrong behaviour
. I have worked for many years with young people of her age and above with behavioural and or learning difficulties and young people who do not have difficulties. I have not expereinced that those with adhd are any more likely to be cruel to animals than any other young person. However children who do display cruelty to animals do appear to be more inclined to behave in antisocial way andi it can be seen as particulaly worrying trait for their and our  future.Only my experience not a study LOL
To completly contradict what I said I also can think of some young people with major antisocial behaviour who adore their animals and would go to the ends of earth to protect them. I guess each person should be taken as an individual.
Lets hope she gets some help and not to forget the poor man who owned the dog

Oh for Heaven's sake!   Angelz - did you not do anything at the age of 12 that you do not now regret

Well I know that I certainly don't have any regrets and I wouldn't say I was an angel! It would never have entered my head to perform this cruelty. I used to walk peoples dogs for them because I couldn't have one as my parents both worked and my brother and I were out at school all day. I used to be so proud of having a lead in my hand and felt priveleged to be walking a dog. Can't begin to describe how I felt when I got my own dog at 28 years of age.

People keep going on about ADHD, have a missed a post somewhere were it says she was ADHD?. Couldn't she just be a bad apple, instead of excuses being made for her.

Couldn't she just be a bad apple, instead of excuses being made for her.

I agree, it is funny how when a child/adolescent actually even an adult does something cruel and appauling that we make excuses for their behaviour, that they must have been damaged by life and so must be healed, let's send them on holidays, show them the good life, get cruel people to work with animals for a while. (Of course they will behave under supervision) Good parents supervise, scold, reward and teach good morals, sometimes it is not enough. There may well be some souls to save by kindess not shown at home, but I think we also need to except that the human race is very complex, no two people are alike and we have different personalities and characters, some people are just mean, cruel and aggressive, they may well mask this infront of others when needed, but often it is just them.

in fact, there's not one person in this world who is fully formed.we're supposed to keep on learning til the day we die.i've been here for coming up to 58 years and i'm certainly not fully formed,there's always something to find out about myself.for instance,when i was younger i would have been among the brigade who wants her to "get a good hiding".here i am with a few more experiences under my belt,good and bad,and i'm wanting to stand between her and the mob.she's been on this planet for 12 years and she still has many years in front of her,now this appalling behaviour has thankfully been exposed and stopped,there is every chance that she will be helped to be a good ,kind productive,teenager and adult.i'm sure her behaviour to that poor dog will haunt her for the rest of her life and the memory of it will make her doubly determined to do the right thing in life.

I am not making excuses for her and I have no idea if she has something in her life that has damaged her but I do think we need to keep a grip on ourselves, society in general, to ensure we do not slip down a similar path as this girl has which means we are interested in reforming her and looking forwards rather than backwards and aiming more at punishment even at the cost of destroying her future.

i do agree carrington,that sometimes it is just them.but unless she is assessed we won't know.

There no excuse for what this child did. She is just a mean little cxw . I had a very bad upbringing but never took it out on a defensless  animal. Send her to the rescue centre to clean up dog poo.  And a good hard slap on the bum . Kids get away with to much theses days.

"She is clearly a troubled child. As her parent I would be beyond shame. I would be racked with guilt I bred a child capable of such cruelty. That I had not seen a trait developing that made her  capable of this action or that she was suffering herself enough to have to vent her emotions and frustration in this manner"
Isabel
Does that not indicate some compassion rather than total condemnation of the girl.... !!

No matter what though I will NEVER excuse what she did!!

> Does that not indicate some compassion rather than total condemnation of the girl.... !!

Glad to hear it although I don't think the quote you have chosen particularly show that yay or nay :-)
As I keep saying, I don't think anyone is making excuses just hoping that the causes are considered and help is given to point her in the right direction for the future.

Why, oh why, oh why can we not just sit children down, and say 1.   THIS IS WRONG.     2.   THIS IS RIGHT.   LEARN THE DIFFERENCE - DONT ASK WHY - JUST DO IT!!

We're forgetting about the very basics of life when we forget to teach these two points first of all.

I didn't have any newspapers yesterday (so my opinions were based on the video alone) and have only read a snippet on the story today but from what I can gather the dog belonged to someone else and she was walking it for him? So she wasn't training her own dog was she? Which is actually what I thought after watching the video, I didn't even realise the dog was not hers. She took the dog knowing she was going to be cruel to it, to bully it and the poor owner had no idea what was going on.

Working with animals to help her? The girl should be on poo duty for the next year!!!! To take someone elses pet and do that to it, I'm even more insensed than I was yesterday. I would be prosecuting her 12 or not, if I were the owner there would be nowhere that girl could run or hide if she did that to my dog.

I agree Loki's mum. Trouble is we have "moved on" from that scenario and bringing up of our children (generalisation) and everthing is looked into and "reasons"' found
Also we have no more proof that that method worked for society as we have only keep data in the last few years.
Its a bit like , violence in our society, has it got worse or is it because we have more methods of comunication to tell us what is going on.
Hope that makes sense. The whole thing is very sad 

Just replying,adding a comment

I was thinking about this last night, before I went to bed (bad mistake, as it caused nightmares of someone doing that to one of my dogs!) 

But if this child, doesnt get a punishment, or counselling or whatever, what does that teach?  If all she gets is a grounding because she isnt fully formed and not responsible because of her age, then who is to say that she wont do it again.  But if she goes through the courts, and gets a sentence for what she did, she will learn that actions have consequences.  She may have to do community service, she may have to get counselling, etc, but there will be a consequence.  If they say that she cant be around animals for a period of time, good!  Thats a length of time that she wont be out to harm a poor animal.

And for people saying that it is CM fault that she did this???  Ok, maybe she has watched the program, but CM NEVER kicked a dog in the head!  She did that several times in the video.  CM never stepped on a dogs tail, or hit them with the leash.  And there are people that have never watched the Dog Whisperer, and have abused animals.  Im not defending CM here, I am just saying that he can not be blamed for someone elses actions.  Just like you cant blame Eminem when a student takes a gun into school.  We live in a society (and I use we as a generalization) were we want to find a reason, or to place blame on something or someone else.  Why cant this girl just be one that did something terrible and pay the consequences?  Why do people always look for something elsewhere to blame that made this child do this? 

If she has a mental disability, then ok.  But no one knows and yet people are so quick to jump to conclusions that this 12 year old, couldnt have done this in sound mind.  Something has to be wrong with her.  Sometimes people are just cruel.  If something is always mentally wrong with someone, or if they always had a bad childhood, then anyone can get off the hook for anything.  No normal person would inflict pain on an animal, just like no normal person would rob a bank or kill someone.  But it doesnt mean that they are all mentally ill, we just want a reason to explain what they did.  We dont want to think that a 12 year old, in their own sick but sane mind, could have done this. 

JMO

Good post Lokis mum - these are and always should be the basics IMO.

Why, oh why, oh why can we not just sit children down, and say 1.   THIS IS WRONG.     2.   THIS IS RIGHT.   LEARN THE DIFFERENCE - DONT ASK WHY - JUST DO IT!!

We're forgetting about the very basics of life when we forget to teach these two points first of all.

In complete agreement, I heard the absolute classic of bad parenting a few days ago.

Waving goodbye to a friend of mine at approx 10.30pm I overheard one of her neighbours complaing to a mother that her son had smashed glass in his garden, the reply from the mother I found bizarre, that the neighbour was to decide on his punishment she said this smiling at her beloved son and then popped him in the house.

Talk about a classic pass the buck, is that not her job, the poor man was left open mouthed looking at me and I have to admit I did the same with raised eyebrows, how on earth was he supposed to decide on a punishment, it's not his son.

I just got in my car, thinking is this what is going wrong where some parents don't even want to tell off their own children now. :-(

Just a general comment not a reply to Crespin

The only fact here is that none of us know ALL the facts, we know what has been reported in a (sensationalist) paper (and yes I do read the Scottish version of it), yet people are saying this girl is evil - lets lock her up and throw away the key shall we?  What about the adult owner who was kicking and sticking chair legs through Diane74's dogs collar? Is she evil too, should she be locked up? I'm surprised no one has commented on a 60 year old man who needs a mobility scooter owning a young Springer Spaniel - we don't know the facts of that situation either but some on here are very quick to condemn. We don't know what the parents have done to punish this girl and funnily enough - it's none of our business. I don't need to see a video to know that children can be very cruel - go to any playground in the country and you will see it. Just because it was a dog on the receiving end of this cruelty (which doesn't seem to have been considered severe enough for the person filming it to stop it happening or indeed for the dog to need a visit to the vet as far as we know) doesn't make it worse than any of the myriad cruel practices that people visit on others (human and animal) every day - a sense of proportion is called for here I think. Lynch Mob mentality helps no one.

Good post Crespin, I also doubt that if the girl showed any signs of mental illness or previously bad behaviour the owner would never have allowed her to take his dog out in the first place.

Very good post Dakkobear.

>Lynch Mob mentality helps no one.

Never a truer word spoken.

It seems that there are people who think reasons are excuses. They're not. They're totally different. But if you can find the reason behind an unwanted action you're halfway to preventing it happening again. Training children is very similar to training dogs.

> Even if you are not a Christian the simple ethos of caring for your neighbours as you would wish to be cared for is not a bad one I would say.

I agree, I am not a Cristian (but fully respect anybody elses religion) and 'do unto others as you would have done to you' ethos is just as much a moral value as a religious one, you don't have to have any religion to want to treat people how you you want treating.

Lets put aside any consideration for this girl to have any behavioural/emotional/hormonal problems and look at her as a 'normal' 12 year old girl for a moment. 12 year olds are still very impresionalble, if she has been learning from a certain TV programme how to 'train' dogs and has never had anybody explain to her that kicking a dog is actually emotionally & physicaly painfull to the dog (as opposed to being good for the dog as it shows them who the boss is) she could actually think she is doing the right thing.
Somebody said she took the dog to a secluded spot so must have known she was being bad - it can't have been very secluded by the looks of the video it has been filmed her from the first floor of a house which would have been clearly visable from where the girl was.

If a child has learnt that brute force and physical punishment is not just the 'correct' way to train a dog, but is actually 'healthy' for the dog, why would they think they are doing anything wrong?

School education doesn't include how to train dogs and unless your parents have dogs and train them without using aversives/force/punishment then you will not learn that it is wrong, especially if you have been watching a certain TV programme that encourages this.

especially if you have been watching a certain TV programme that encourages this.

Just picking up on this, many seem to be using in this girls defence of the way she treated and bullied the dog on maybe watching this TV programme, but what if she has never, ever, watched it, what excuse does she have then?

Oh lets not bring the biggest fairytale of them all into this....at 12 years old she knew right from wrong, .

A 12 year old child should know right from wrong - but none of us know what this child has been taught to believe is right or wrong. What some of us see as right others will see as wrong. I personally did not feel that it was right for my children to swear - others bring up their children in an environment where swearing is part of the every day communication with a child. I did not deem it right to kick, punch or beat my children if they did something that I found unacceptable but some children live with that treatment day in and day out and thus, for them, will view that type of behaviour as normal.

I too was horrified by this child's actions but would not condone treating that child in the way that has has been recommended by some posters. I cannot agree that this child should be written off nor do I believe that inflicting the same sort of treatment on her as she gave to that poor dog would do anything other than confirm the mistaken belief that those sort of actions are acceptable in any situation at all. How can some people say that her actions are deplorable and then go on to say that she should be treated in the same manner herself and think that this would be acceptable.

I find this child's behaviour unacceptable and very worrying but, even more worrying than her behaviour is the so called "solution" suggested by adults who seem to believe that meting out a violent retribution will convince this child that violence in any shape or form isn't acceptable. No wonder there are so many confused children around nowadays.

>How can some people say that her actions are deplorable and then go on to say that she should be treated in the same manner herself and think that this would be acceptable.

It defies logic. People are saying that she should know that violence is wrong, but recommend that she herself should as a consequence be the victim of violence. Two wrongs don't make a right.

>I find this child's behaviour unacceptable and very worrying but, even more worrying than her behaviour is the so called "solution" suggested by adults who seem to believe that meting out a violent retribution will convince this child that violence in any shape or form isn't acceptable. No wonder there are so many confused children around nowadays.

If violent behaviour by a child is wrong, it's even more wrong in adults. How will she learn that violence is wrong if she is then subjected to it "to teach her a lesson"?

Has anyone found any other reports of this incident?
I'm loathed to comment on one tabloid report alone, and would like more information before doing so.

Many people have commented on the report that the father has stated his daughter 'will be grounded' but he does (reportedly) state prior to that 'he will be talking at length' with her, which to my mind negates the derisive comments on the 'grounding' as I think this is clearly what needs to happen first, the child needs to be assessed as to what her level of understanding and motivation was. Is this bad blood or bad behavior? (and behavior is learned or my favorite adage 'Behavior breeds behavior') You would hope won't you that the parent would be well rounded enough to be able to facilitate the level of discussion needed here but we know sadly some are not and that professional assessment would  then be needed.

I don't understand the need in some people to want to address violence with violence (and thus keep the cycle going in humanity)
  I do understand the necessity for evidence but could not (personally) have stood there and continued to film after the kick to the head, I would have intervened in the event of an attack becoming a sustained attack.

I hope more accurate reports will be forthcoming and that this child receives the evaluation and appropriate care & education she needs.

> especially if you have been watching a certain TV programme that encourages this.
>
> Just picking up on this, many seem to be using in this girls defence of the way she treated and bullied the dog on maybe watching this TV programme, but what if she has never, ever, watched it, what excuse does she have then?

Good point, there is nothing to say that she has been watching that programme, just as we don't know if she has any hormonal/behavioural/anger problems.

But she is a only a 12 year old, and us such is prone to beng impulsive and acting without thinking, even if she has been taught how to correctly train a dog (don't know how though as according to article they only have a cat).

Carrington you said this earlier:

>As someone who to date has never needed to give my boys a clip around the ear, I certainly am not against in some reactive instances it happening. I'll tell you why, many animals growl and nip at their young when misbehaving, just because we are more intellegent doesn't make us less instinctive to act on a response,

and I agree with you, parents do sometimes act instinctively and give thier children a smack, I have done so myself (I no longer smack my children since the time I smacked them for hitting each other and they asked me why was it OK for me to hit them if they are not allowed to hit!). If grown adults can be forgiven and even condoned for smacking thier own children, how 'bad' is a 12 year old, impulsive child that gets carried away with her instincts and frustrations whith a dog (we can talk to our children and explain what we want - we can't do that with a dog)?
Surely some anger manegment strategies or something that can help her calm down and think before acting would be of much more benefit than some of the punishment that has been suggested. Give her the ability to not do this again , rather than punish her for what could be a mistake, rather than pre-meditated cruelty.

how 'bad' is a 12 year old, impulsive child that gets carried away with her instincts and frustrations whith a dog (we can talk to our children and explain what we want - we can't do that with a dog)?


I get your point - as adults no matter how frustrating a dog may be, we wouldn't kick or hit it at least I hope anyone training a dog on this board wouldn't, can't speak for others as we have Prince Edward doing it on the previous link supplied........ (what can I say? **rolleyes*) A child or adult may instinctively without as much control kick or hit a dog, however, big however, we can clearly see from that video it wasn't an instinctive kick or hit it was continuous, over and over and over again, the dog did nothing wrong to warrant any of it, the dog was a sweetheart taking the kicks and kneeing over and over, submitting and continually being abused.

This is why it wasn't training or a reactive response, but bullying pure and simple, the way that bullies always act picking on something weaker that won't hit or in this case bite back.

 

Surely some anger manegment strategies or something that can help her calm down and think before acting would be of much more benefit than some of the punishment that has been suggested.

TBH I did watch the whole video and to me (not that I know a lot about it) it didn't look like someone out of control with anger. To me it looked like a calculated attack. So anger management, were was the anger.

>So anger management, were was the anger.

Anger needn't be a furious rage. Revenge (the dish supposedly "best served cold") is all about cold, calculating spiteful anger.

>This is why it wasn't training or a reactive response, but bullying pure and simple, the way that bullies always act picking on something weaker that won't hit or in this case bite back.

Just CM, then.

I also agree the girl concerned showed no anger at all. IMO extremely worrying behaviour.

Which is why we need to know what the child's motivation and understanding of the situation was before determining what steps are necessary next!

>> This is why it wasn't training or a reactive response, but bullying pure and simple, the way that bullies always act picking on something weaker that won't hit or in this case bite back.
> Just CM, then.

Exactly JG, that's why I can't help but think this girl has been influenced by his programme :( And that takes a lot for me to say, because I have defended his programme in the past, not beleiving others about the bad effect it has on how people treat dogs :(

I have read a lot of the comments. At 12yrs old she is in Senior School, She was not angry, it was hatred. A child at 2yrs knows how to stroke an animal and be kind to it. Also not to stick its dinner knife into anyone they feel fit to. Sorry to many excuses made. Even a child that is beaten does not necessary beat any child it meets. That is falsely. With councelling, She will find ways of hiding the way she is. She has not very nice genes and make up, you can't change them. Yes! she will be marked for life, and needs to be to protect other, animals and children.
It will stop her getting through the system. A intensive CIB check will then pick it up. Everyone does things as a children that they would not do now, how many on here have done this to an animal. I bet none! that is your answer.
This is were it starts and needs to be recognised, to make sure these children that grow to be adults are kept on the system. Many as you hear of, it is to late, they have already killed there victims. Like nurses,school caretakers,care assistants, could go one.
Good of the sun to make this kind of action accountable for.

Denese

She has not very nice genes and make up, you can't change them. Yes! she will be marked for life, and needs to be to protect other, animals and children.

And how do you know this? Do you know this child personally? Are you aware of facts that are not available to the rest of us? If you do know more than the rest of us and aren't just making assumptions based on the little we have been told about this child would you please enlighten us.

> Everyone does things as a children that they would not do now, how many on here have done this to an animal.

I have not done what the girl did, but I as a teenager I used to use a choke-chain (wrongly) on my dog and think 'scruffing' and shouting at him was how you taught them to listen :( I didn't think harsh treatment of a dog was cruel, I thought that was the best way :( :(

My dad is disgusted with what he used to do as a young teenager, he used to go out with an air-rifle and shoot little birds for target practice :( (he's 65 now, so this was a long itme ago) . As an adult he has always been a kind, gentle, compassionate man who wouldn't even sqat a fly.

What we do as teenagers/children is not how we would act as adults.

>She has not very nice genes and make up, you can't change them

we don't even put our dogs behaviour down to simply 'bad breeding' untill all other possibilities (ie, medical/behaviouar/wrong training etc.) have been tried, why should we right-off our children without at least tryng to help them first?

> we don't even put our dogs behaviour down to simply 'bad breeding' untill all other possibilities (ie, medical/behaviouar/wrong training etc.) have been tried, why should we right-off our children without at least tryng to help them first?

That pretty much sums it up for me too mastifflover.

Some of the comments on this thread have really concerned me - I think a few may be initial knee jerk reactions, something most of us are very capable of, but those having given time and thought on the subject before posting or when making subsequent posts that advocate violence towards this girl, giving her up as a lost cause etc are clearly without any compassion or humanity IMO.   Ironically somewhat similar to the accusations made re this child - yet inexcusably coming from adults :(