> The dogooders that want her to work with children and animals, to address her problems, can use their own children and animals.

I would welcome that. My dog has taught me so much about patience and self-control, he can not be bullied and forced into doing anything, I'm sure she would gain alot from learning how being kind and gentle can get even a huge, 'stubborn' dog to comply.

> From what folk have said, I understand that she was teaching the pup to walk on a lead.  By standing on its tail while she kicked it in the face
>

hmmm. from what I can gather by peoples comments of a certain TV dog-'training' celeb, many an adult has been violent with thier dog in order to 'teach' it, they don't think they are being cruel, they think they are doing the right thing - they lack decent education on the matter.

> For those that haven't watched it - the dog tries to appease her while being kicked.
>

to see that poor dog roll on its back, begging that evil little thing to leave it alone broke my heart, it sends shivers down my spine :(

She wouldn't get within a mile of my dogs

ADHD sufferers are known to harm children.

When my daughter was just a little girl we found her hamster dead never noticed any injury and disposed of it. A year later my freind came to me crying and said her daughter had confessed to stabbing the little hamster with a pencil and killing it when my daughter was out her bedroom.  The mother was traumatized at the thought of it.  She is an ADHD sufferer and cannot be trusted around any animals.

tina s writes:
it has been proven that animal cruelty in young children can lead to terrible crimes later in life

havent had time to read whole thread and couldnt bring myself to watch the film but have to agree with above. most serial killers/torturors/rapists are found to have tortured animals when young. starting with pulling wings off butterflies and continuing to sadism and so on. they are usually what we would class as 'sick' individuals and this girl sounds like she is well on the way

Dead right, and there is no way I would want her near my dog. I don't believe that grounding her is the right way. The punishment has to be harder. I do believe that the RSPCA should prosecute her to make her understand that actions like that do have repercussions. Okay, she may get some form of community service of some sort, but a little tap on the wrist and no television etc is just not enough.
What about the poor dog, I hope it can learn to trust again! Poor little devil.

I still think that she is not beyond the pale.if she's dumped the scrapheap at twelve years old,what will be the point to her life,how will she ever redeem herself.some of you are saying that she should be physically punished'but who by?if you were put in a room with her would you really be willing to set about a twelve year old who may have undisclosed problems that need psychiatric attention.i don't believe that any of you good people would  take that particular job.her mind is in a mess,and needs help to be sorted out.i hope she gets it.

> her mind is in a mess,and needs help to be sorted out.i hope she gets it.

I agree poppity.
Allthough after watching the video I wonder if she is misguided? The 'kicks' she delivered to that poor dog put me in mind of the 'foot tap' a certain TV celeb uses to 'rehabilitate' dogs, allthough her 'taps' were much harder than the celebs they did not seem like full-blown, hard kicks (I am still not condoning what she has done). I wonder if she has been watching TV and thinks she now knows all the 'correct' methods to get a dog to 'behave'? :(

I just watched this and my blood is boiling right now. I feel sick with anger with this girl- if I had witnessed this, I would be up on assault charges from grabbing this kid and swinging her about by her hair! I have also posted it onto my facebook page to share with everyone.

I watch a lot of animal police programmes made in the US on animal planet- and they always have a child in court for animal cruelty because there is a direct link to animal cruelty and later on in adulthood with child abuse! You imagine this girl in 4 years time  being allowed to do baby sitting for neighbours!  

> I would be up on assault charges from grabbing this kid and swinging her about by her hair!

exactly what i said earlier magica, evil to the core!

> I watch a lot of animal police programmes made in the US on animal planet- and they always have a child in court for animal cruelty because there is a direct link to animal cruelty and later on in adulthood with child abuse

I watch a lot of these type of programmes, I was suprised to see that the most effective course of action the officers have found in a lot of cases is EDUCATION.

>> The dogooders that want her to work with children and animals, to address her problems, can use their own children and animals.
> I would welcome that. My dog has taught me so much about patience and self-control, he can not be bullied and forced into doing anything, I'm sure she would gain alot from learning how being kind and gentle can get even a huge, 'stubborn' dog to comply.
>

I would not mind either.  I think it is a bit far fetched to suppose she would launch into an attack in the company of an adult.

> because there is a direct link to animal cruelty and later on in adulthood with child abuse!

there is not a direct link magica, there is a trend or correlation. it is not the case of kick a dog= child abuser/serial killer. it's mroe of a tell than a set in stone thing, i.e. if they are doing this you need to worry and interveen

> I feel sick with anger with this girl- if I had witnessed this, I would be up on assault charges from grabbing this kid and swinging her about by her hair!

Perhaps she learned this behaviour from people who talk or act like this.

i watched a few seconds, and that was it. Why someone would stand there and watch it, without doing anything i don't know - they're as bad as her. All i can say is it's a good job it wasn't me passing by.....

Yes rather harsh comments by me saying I would swing her about by the hair admittedly.
My first view of this film and it upset me some-what. I hate bullying of any kind. Of course I would of been deeply hostile on seeing this behaviour in the flesh but would not of been physically violent. I can after calming down and digesting everyone's thoughts on this cruelty can understand that education would be the best way of dealing with this girl. Maybe getting her to help out at the local dog shelter- with supervision of course. Then when she is a grown up will know how to act around animals. She obviously hasn't a clue at the moment!

> When my daughter was just a little girl we found her hamster dead never noticed any injury and disposed of it. A year later my freind came to me crying and said her daughter had confessed to stabbing the little hamster with a pencil and killing it

That is so very, very sad.

>Why someone would stand there and watch it, without doing anything i don't know

Most likely because they wern't expecting that level of violence towards the dog, where in their house so possibly knew they would'nt get down in time, and possibly feared for their own safety! 

I don't think I would have been able to intervene, I would have been too scared, however I would have reported it.  My OH on the other hand, if had seen it, would of intervened and done something.

Lets not forget if the person recording it would have gone to stop it, they wouldn't have it on camera as evidence.

Therefore this person is in no way as bad as her.  He has put a stop to this behaviour.  NOT recording it and watching it every day wouold have been much worse :(

The mother of this child has said she most likely did it as she was bullied about being overweight...taking her anger out on the dog maybe !

Or her folks could have just fed her a better diet with more execise i suppose.

The poor animal and owner..so so sad :(

> Lets not forget if the person recording it would have gone to stop it, they wouldn't have it on camera as evidence.
>
> Therefore this person is in no way as bad as her.  He has put a stop to this behaviour.  NOT recording it and watching it every day wouold have been much worse :-(

I'm in total agreement here.

I knew that wasn't like you, Magica :-)

I feel sick after watching this. She deserves none of my sympathy :-( Horrific !!

No, she doesn't deserve sympathy, but neither does she deserve to be whipped and kicked - the instigator of that type of justice would then be no better than the girl herself.

What she does need though is to LEARN that this is no way to treat another living breathing creature.   It seems today that it is not possible to say to someone "you can't do that - that is wrong".   Why is this?  Is it not PC????

Surely it shouldn't be hard to teach a child of 12 the difference between right and wrong?  No excuses - just this is right but that is wrong!

:-)

> don't punish the bad behaviour, reward the good.
>
> Do you not think bad behaviour in humans should be punished then? I for one can understand in animals bad behaviour is not that, after all animals do not think like we do and they are not intentionally behaving "Badly" just that to us it is "unwanted " behaviour. However humans have the capacity to understand what "Bad" behaviour is and IMO need punishment, admittedly in this case also some teaching and maybe phycriatric help. But to those humans who INTENTIONALLY exhibit true "BAD" behaviour then punishment is required. We cannot compare the two.
> Aileen
>
> Edited to say I do not think physical punishment is the way to go however but a punishment is needed

I was talking about the training method that we advocate for our animals and children are no different, they need to be taught right from wrong. I do think there should be a consequence , but the punishments being suggested by some posters seem to involve beating a 12 year old child - doing to her what she did to the dog - what does that teach her? 12 is not grown up, yes, she should know better by that age - so why doesn't she? If we are writing off 12 year olds as evil and irredeemable then what does that say about our society? Some posters on here (and I'm not directing any of this at you Aileen) seem to have a real hatred of children that is quite appalling. The posters who advocate battering this child are the ones who defend every dog involved in a 'dog bite' incident. We have this child tarred as an evil psychopath in the making for kicking a dog, yet apparently doing the same to her would be OK in the eyes of some people here. We know nothing about this child, we don't know what her life is like do we? yet some folk seem to know that she can't be changed or educated. She wasn't tying fireworks to the dogs neck and setting them off, or taking a weapon to the dog, and while what she did do was truly horrible, the fact that an adult filmed it for 15? minutes but made no attempt to stop it, in an effort to get 'evidence' and then send it to The Sun, doesn't exactly portray them in a good light. Demonising this girl doesn't help her or us, educating her just might (JMHO).

well i normally sit on the fence and do not post but on seeing the actions of yhis girl I feel i should
1) what this girl did was terible
2) poor dog
3) the poor owner
4) have we all forgotten about those two lads that beat thoses boys just afew weeks ago

this girl should be punished not just grounded this is what is wrong with this country we wait untill someone/ animal dies and yes the parrents are to blame abit but at 12 she should know right from wrong 

ADHD sufferers are known to harm children.

Blue, I may be nit picking here, but I have to say that NOT ALL ADHD children harm animals.  My sister, is ADHD and would never harm an animal in her life.  She has two cats, who she treats amazingly.  She would be devistated if anything happened to them.  She even called me crying when she accidentally kicked her one cat off the couch while watching TV, and the cat wouldnt go near her straight away.  She hated herself for an accident.  She is wanting to go to Vet college, and become a vet tech.  I would trust her (and have trusted her before) with any of my dogs.
I am sorry that someone killed your daughters hamster, that shouldnt have happened. 

Now, on to the actual discussion about the child in question.

That was horrible, I watched the video and cried.  I had knots in my stomach.  As I get ready to say goodbye to my pups as they venture to new homes soon, it scares me that someone trusted can do something so mean.
I think she needs some counselling, I think she needs a punishment greater than a grounding, and I think she needs some education.  If it happens in a JDC then so be it (better off in jouvinielle detention than out on the streets walking one of my dogs!). 
I feel so sorry for the old man, who owns the dog, who was just trying to do right for the dog.  He got a person he thought he could trust to walk the dog for him, because he has a mobility issue.  He tried so hard to do right by the springer.  I hope both he and the springer spaniel wont have lasting effects of this. 

> I think she needs a punishment greater than a grounding

Only her parents will know how much seperation from her friends or her activities will mean to her but I would imagine friends and neighbours recognising your picture in the Sun and finding yourself public enemy number one at the age of 12 must be way up there in punishment terms not to mention be aware of the effect this will be having on her parents. 
I hope it doesn't all prove detrimental in helping this girl become a more balanced member of society.  I really can't see why this was ever handed to the tabloid press. 

Blue, I may be nit picking here, but I have to say that NOT ALL ADHD children harm animals My post never said ALL

ADHD sufferers are known to harm children.

Sorry I can't correct that mistype hopefully you will know I meant to say ANIMALS.

ADHD sufferers are know to harm animals.  ( that doesn't mean ALL of them)  but it is quite common. Have a read on the net if in doubt.

Now, on to the actual discussion about the child in question.
  I hope that wasn't meant in the way it sounded.

THIS is part of the discussion. The child could have several medical things wrong with her and ADHD sufferers are linked to animal harming. I was pointing out , QUITE rightly that this child could plain and simply have a medical disability that through this could THANKFULLY have been brought to light.

this girl should be punished not just grounded this is what is wrong with this country we wait untill someone/ animal dies and yes the parrents are to blame abit but at 12 she should know right from wrong 

These comments are why the country is in the state it is in I am afraid.

WE do not know anything about the child and you certainly know nothing about the parents , what a generalisation if ever one.   Just as well we do have some sort of justice system in place.

>ADHD sufferers are know to harm animals.  ( that doesn't mean ALL of them)  but it is quite common.

That is equally true of non-ADHD sufferers.

That is equally true of non-ADHD sufferers.

...........and your point is?   a bit of strange statement.

So it is equally true of non- ADHD sufferers what that non sufferers commonly harm animals ( scratching my head) 

... that ADHD is likely to be a red herring.

... that ADHD is likely to be a red herring.

A read herring for what?    

Just attaching myself here to make a reply...

Perhaps this girl should (supervised of course) spend a couple of weeks at an RSPCA hospital and observe and eventually help nurse cruelty cases. Some people just don't see animals as having feelings or being able to suffer from mental trauma. Perhaps seeing first hand the damage, both mental and physical, the kind of treatment she meted out to the poor spaniel will help her understand the errors of her ways.

Sort of a community service as a punishment.

My 2 cents worth...:-)

Having watched the video a couple of times i really can't see any evidence of any training going in. It jsut looks like she just launches into her tirade of abse for very little reason at all. However, my boyfriend happened to be watching a certain dog training programme yesterday and recorded it for me as he was so shocked by what he saw, a grown man kicking a dog so hard in the ribs that it yelps and jumps backwards. WHY IS THIS MAN STILL ON TV?! If this is the sort of programme this child has watched than I'm not surprised by her actions at all as it has been shown that children will copy the actions of others that they see. Of course i don't even know if she has watched that programme, but i wouldn't be surprised.
Unfortunately though the level of violence that child showed made me think she must be very disturbed i hope she gets more than just grounded, she needs serious help.

>>... that ADHD is likely to be a red herring.
>A read herring for what?    

LOL! Very clever! :-D :-D

>Having watched the video a couple of times i really can't see any evidence of any training going in.

I would think it's the same sort of 'training' as rubbing a pup's nose in its mess to 'train' it to be clean in the house.

> Now, on to the actual discussion about the child in question.
>   I hope that wasn't meant in the way it sounded.
>
>

No, it wasnt meant to sound horrible.  I was addressing something you said about ADHD, and then had my own opinion on the actual article, video, etc.  I meant that I had responded to something you said about ADHD children (which I took harsher than you meant it, because of my experience with my sister, and for that I appologize.  I didnt want everyone thinking that ADHD kids hurt animals as a whole).  Then I wanted to add my own comments in regards to what I felt about the article.  I did not mean to imply that the discussion on ADHD and this act of cruelty were not relivant together.  It was a transition, not a jab at anyone talking about mental issues with this girl. 

Hope that makes that clearer

Hi Crespin,

I understand :-) although my friend's child is not related to me ( she also lived next door to me) we were very close.   The child did some terrible terrible terrible things before she was finally diagnosed and treated.   I remember her sticking her face to her bedroom lamp and really burning herself badly.  It was an awful time.   Thankfully she responds well to drugs and is a different child.

I think their behaviour is so far away from the "norm"  ( and I know the symptoms are all different) it is hard to believe an illness can cause a person to do such harm at times.

Sorry if this post caused upset, however I was so upset when I saw it, I felt I had to do something, even if it was only to post the link and make people aware of it. Thanks to whoever put the disclaimer on the bottom, I should have thought about it myself.

It has been interesting reading different opinions, and whilst I agree that a witch hunt is of no benefit to anybody, I do feel that some action should be taken. I am very much of the opinion that whatever the child has witnessed at home, or been subjected to by bullies, she must have a predisposition to violence to carry out such an attack and as such feel that she is definitely in need of phsyciatric help/assessment. To me the warning bells have already rung that we have a very unbalanced child in need of clinical assessment.

My son was the victim of a vicious assault and had to endure years of bullying, but at no time did it ever make him take out his anger on others, whether animal or human. Indeed it made him a stronger, more caring person who will not see others being treated unfairly. On this board we hear of many 'nice' kids who have all been victims of bullies, none of them have turned to violence or cruelty. In today's society I feel people are too quick to make excuses for individuals who do wrong, to me the excuses need to stop. Whilst I sympathise with parents of children who have taken the wrong path, and I believe this can happen to even the best of families, I do feel that parents are responsible for their children, and as such I feel the parents of this girl should be held responsible. Maybe if parents were held more accountable, then we wouldn't have a generation of out of control children that seem to be the majority, not the minority. I try and stick up for the younger generation as I don't feel we should stereotype, however reports like this are getting more and more commonplace. At what point does society make a stand and say we are not going to tolerate this sort of behaviour? It could be that action is being taken, but from what I have read, all that is happening is that the girl is grounded and I do not feel that this is sufficient punishment for such an offence.

I know what I feel I would like to happen to the child, but equally I know that morally this would be wrong. Hopefully someone might come along who has an idea on how we can all make our outrage publically known to try and ensure this is not just brushed under the carpet.

I am sorry if my thoughts cause offence to anyone, but I am just so fed up of excuses being made for appalling acts such as this.

On a lighter note, I never thought I would give the Sun a pat on it's back, but from one Times reader, well done the Sun. Hopefully with the matter being reported in the press, action will be taken to try and ensure this sick child gets the assessment/treatment she so obviously requires.

Wonderful post Goldiemad.  I agree with you 100%

I don't think anyone would want to make excuses for her behaviour.  Clearly it is totally unacceptable and shocking.  I think the board just disagrees as to how it should be dealt with.
I do disagree regarding the benefits of passing it to the Sun though.  I doubt this publicity has been at all beneficial, by any means, in sorting this girl out.   Bringing it to the attention of the police or social services should have been quite sufficient and I feel would have brought about appropriate action.
I don't think there was any great problem with your link, by the way, as you had already indicated it could be distressing.  I think the warning has been added due to the much worse one later in the thread.

There are NO excuses for this!!  holding an animal on a lead so it cant run away whilst you batter it is wrong and this monster needs more than grounding, I hope people do recognise her and the label she gets stays with her for life so people are aware of the monster she is!!  If this wasnt filmed it would not be public knowledge, now it is and everyone knows what she is so I think the person did the right thing filming this, had he gone out and 'told her off' or lost his temper with the monster he would prob been the one getting into trouble!

We don't really know that is all the correction that is happening.  Social Services, like Family Courts, do not publicise their activities.  I very much hope she is not labelled for life :-( otherwise what is the point of doing anything about her?  We might as well let her continue as she is.

>> I agree poppity.
> Allthough after watching the video I wonder if she is misguided? The 'kicks' she delivered to that poor dog put me in mind of the 'foot tap' a certain TV celeb uses to 'rehabilitate' dogs, allthough her 'taps' were much harder than the celebs they did not seem like full-blown, hard kicks (I am still not condoning what she has done). I wonder if she has been watching TV and thinks she now knows all the 'correct' methods to get a dog to 'behave'? :-(

I agree-it seems obvious that she has seen this "trainer" on TV and is copying him-just more so.I think a copy of this video ought to be sent to the producers of this programme as evidence that said trainer should be removed from our screens urgently and permanently-who knows how many more dogs are suffering because of it.
I also don't blame the person who took the video for not intervening-they may well have been scared to do anything(they may have been elderly) and who knows if things had got nasty and they had dared to touch the girl they may well have got into trouble themselves.They should be congratulated for taking the video.

> There are NO excuses for this!!  holding an animal on a lead so it cant run away whilst you batter it is wrong and this monster needs more than grounding, I hope people do recognise her and the label she gets stays with her for life so people are aware of the monster she is!! 

Oh for Heaven's sake!   Angelz - did you not do anything at the age of 12 that you do not now regret?   Or is your name your career?

This girl is 12.   What she did was wrong, terrible and cruel.   She needs to learn this and she needs to learn that she can go on from this point and become a good person.   Of course she deserves to be punished.   But if she gets labelled with "Monster" for life - what a waste of a life it will be.  

And I still feel that the person filming it should have stopped the cruelty when it was happening - for the dog's sake if not for the sake of the girl.  But I imagine that s/he has the same mindset as you and would prefer to be horrified than to do anything more positive about it.

Great Post Margot - agree wholeheartedly!

I have now watched the video.. and read all the posts. She is not a little child at 12 years old her morals and conscience should be  developed.  The person that filmed has probably done her a huge favour.She is clearly a troubled child. As her parent I would be beyond shame. I would be racked with guilt I bred a child capable of such cruelty. That I had not seen a trait developing that made her  capable of this action or that she was suffering herself enough to have to vent her emotions and frustration in this manner. She does need to be punished, (not physically), then she needs to be helped to see how wrong her actions are. Working some where like a rescue centre fully supervised accompanied  by her parents, because ulimatley they are responsible, to teach her the error of her ways. May be her parents need some help too....
What amazed me the most was that the dog rolls over and shows submission,,, I wonder how many children she has tried to make do the same???

Good post Goldiemad!

>at 12 years old her morals and conscience should be  developed.

12 years old is not adult - pre-teens should not be considered fully-formed! That's not to say that her behaviour was tolerable in the slightest - but if you're familiar with "The Lord of the Flies" you'll recognise that children are capable of extraordinary (to adults) actions.