I am interested at what stage the manufacurers of the many different brands of RL are recommending it be taken from, my research so far has shown me that this differs from brand to brand, I am not a scientist, nor am I capable of undertaking scientific research, I am interested in both the good and the bad aspects and so far I must say the bad stories are numerous, but I have also heard alot of people say they have used it with no harmful results which is why I am trying to establish at what stage they used it.

Jan very sorry to hear about your experience, this seems to fall in line with what the National health service helpline says too, miscarriages experienced between 10-16 weeks.

My expected, or more accurately hopeful outcome of all this is for there to be warnings placed on this stuff, it will always be up to the individual as to whether or not to risk it but if you go ahead and use this stuff without any warning of its capability, then the vast majority remain uninformed and that is not a good place to be.  Warnings should be in place, people should be informed of the dangers they could possibly be placing themselves or indeed their bitch under if taking or using this stuff to aid pregnancy and birth/whelping. There is too much evidence to suggest it is danger free.

Shanti, i believe warnings of possible problems/side effects should be on any medication / supplement , i would just like to say that i had 6 pregnancys myself and took rasperryleaf throughout the last 4 and had quick pain relief free births , and i have always used raspberry leaf for my mini dachshunds throughout pregnancy and have never encountered any problems, but as with any medication/ supplement there is always the possibility of problems occuring, and i fully support your concerns.
Caron x

That is the thing though people always say I had no problems easy litters and have always used it BUT would it all have been the same had you not used it.. I think probably.

That's the difficulty, Blue - it's impossible to know what would have happened under different circumstances. It would only be guessing as we're as likely to guess wrong as right.

I am interested at what stage the manufacurers of the many different brands of RL are recommending it be taken from

Well Dorwest Herbs say it should be given from the third week of gestation and continued until one week after delivery to help ensure complete afterbirth expulsion.

Debs

Sorry to be a bit thick, but is Red Rasberry the same as Rasberry Leaf?

Please advise, many thanks.

I started it ( if you want to call it that) on day 53.. and that was when disaster struck. 6 hours after the 1st dose.  It was bought from Canine chemists and I only bought it after recommendation from someone. I will never ever use ANYTHING again during pregnancy..

I gave Raspberry Leaf Tablets to my bitch from 3 weeks post mating at a suggested dose of 3 per day, she started whelping on day 63 after a panting stage of 27 hours, the first pup emerged after 25 minutes of hard pushing and the placenta looked healthy, about 45 minutes later, she started contracting again for the 2nd pup but after 15 minutes or so, started loosing blood with each contraction, then her body seemed to shut down and we had to make a visit to the Vet, by the time we got there, 1/2 hour later, she was losing parts of the next placenta over the surgery floor, she had 1 shot of oxytocin, which really didn't get things going enough and we elected to go for a c-section.

Now whether the RLT had anything to do with any of the above, I have no idea........what I do know is, it certainly didn't make for an easy whelp as suggested by the companies who sell this product, after this experience I don't think I'd waste my money and shall never use it again.

Thanks eveyone for your imput on all this, I realise it must be painful for some of you to talk about your own or your bitches experiences, and I know some of you think you have have good results with it, but as I said in my original few postings on this subject, is that because the levels of compound were different from brand to brand? did the people who had bad experiences have products with compounds at such high levels they were actally toxic? too many unanswered questions for my liking.

Also the different intructions with each product, the bottle I was going to use is from Denes
  http://www.denes.co.uk/about/in_focus.php and it states on this bottle:-

Suggested daily dosage, from the time of mating and the first 5 weeks of prgnancy, then it gives you a table ranging from small to giant breeds as to how much you administer, it then says from 5 weeks into pregnancy and for 2 days after whelping to DOUBLE the dose, giving with a large breed like mine a massive 600 mg per day.

What I hope to achieve is for some kind of WARNING to be placed on products, so people are informed enough to take the choice, also for there to be a MEASURED dosage and CLEAR, consistant instructions from brand to brand about when to use ie from what stage in pregnancy. But most important of all this would be the WARNINGS and contra indications, to find these you have, at the moment to look very hard to find. 

Denes is the brand I have always used; the one I have had no problems using.

As Isabel said in an earlier post, Shanti, if your study is to be meaningful (I'd hope so, because then it would be very useful and informative) you'll need to be very careful to avoid bias. You'll need to collate all experiences, both good and bad, and avoid unconscious 'leading' suggestions. Your wording: "I know some of you think you have have good results with it ..." is very suggestive that good results are false and only bad results are valid, which of course would render your study less than valuable. If you left out the word 'think' from that phrase it would be unbiased. :) No criticism intended; it's a very easy trap that many market researchers fall into. The last thing you want is to give the impression that you're trying to limit your data. :)

Point taken on board, ty, But I do really still think that there should be set guildelines and warnings, whether people have have good or bad experiences using it, there are still far too many questions marks with this widely available, recommended product. 

Would just like to take this opportunity to thank those of you who have contacted me privately over your experiences with this product. 

I'm probably being stupid but boes anyone know how I can get back onto page 1 of this topic?

Shanti has kindly given me permission to submit her original post to my Breed Club magazine, so I need to get back to it.

Go to the top of the page you have got and click on little white arrow in top right of uppermost post.  This should carry you through to the previous page.

Thanks Isabel. Knew I was just being dim :)

Not at all :)  I think Admin make in labyrinthian on purpose to encourage us to limit the size of threads ;)

I assume you'll be taking into account the responses on the other dog fora where this has been posted? There are positives as well as negatives there too.

In 44 years, I have experienced four pregnancies (my own) and 4 whelpings.    In all but the first of my pregnancies, I took raspberry leaf tea as I went into labour - on the advice of my midwife.   Result?  3 deliveries lasting less than 4 hours each, with no anelgesics.   The first delivery was forceps delivery.    In the 4 whelpings, I gave raspberry leaf tea to the bitch on day 63.   Result?  3 litters of 7 & 8 puppies, 1 of 12 (2 stillborn) with 2 retained.

Just my own experiences.

Margot

My initial interest started in this product as I was considering giving it to my own bitch during her pregnancy, up to the point I had started to look deeper I too had found only good reports about it, on further investigation I discovered the information from several sources which I put into my first post on this thread which was were not good, my whole purpose in all this is not to slaughter the product or the people who use it, it is simply to say that they should be in an informed position to make the choice as to whether they wish to use this product.

The way things stand at the moment they are not, warnings of contra indications are not given on many of the brands that are so widely available and different advice is given from brand to brand as to when treatment should begin.

It also concerns me that our own national health service helpline is no longer advising the use of this product during pregnancy.

Since I started this thread I have been told many stories both on this thread itself and by private message and there have been good and bad experiences reported to me in this way, all I want to do is make people aware that they may not have a good experience with it because of the nature of the compound, and will continue to try as I belive it is very important for people to be aware of both sides of the coin.  It is very easy to find recommendation of the product, it is not so easy to find the downside.

So far as I am aware, it was never advised to be used during pregnancy - only ever during/immediately before labour/delivery.   

It stands to reason - if it will ease/encourage delivery it should only be taken/given at that time - one does not want to encourage early delivery - or to induce a miscarriage.

Margot

the breeder who bred my bitch and whose stud i used with my bitch actually gave me rasberry leaf straight after mating & told me to give her 1 a day, throughout the pregnancy ! as i had used it in my own pregnancies (tea form) i thought it must be ok. i have used it and recommended it many times . ive never had problems or known of others have problems, but then again i have no proof it "works" as i have never not used it ! this is certainly worrying me a little bit

Again I would like to thank all the people who have come forward, sadly alot of them have done so via private messege, it is a shame that they feel they cannot talk about their experience and their feelings without being slated for them on here. Yes there have been good results and most definately there have been horribly bad ones which I have been told about, whether good or bad and I have to be honest with this, I have heard so far mostly bad, whether it has anything to do with the use of RL is the burning issue here most of these people feel that they would not have used the RL had they known of the contra indications it could or might have caused, my arguement still remains the same people should be informed or warned of what might happen due to the very nature of it, if they choose to use this stuff.

Another positive experience with raspberry leaf here. I gave my bitch RL tablets every day for the last 3 weeks. She had a very easy whelping, 4 pups, no problems and back to full fitness very quickly too. I used an 11 year old stud dog, one mating, hoping for a small litter and the vet thought 2 when she was scanned so I don't think she reabsorbed any :)

Glad to hear of a positive story, I think that the absorbtion is more likely to occur if the bitch is given the RL in early stages of pregnancy ie day one onwards or at least before the embryos have had chance to attach to the uterus wall, most of the 'horror stories' I am being told about is when a bitch recieves it in early pregnancy or before the last third of pregnancy by which time the major development is complete and the foetus are well attatched, it is interesting for me to note this and further reinforces the fact that problems with this product do seem to be for the most part in early use in pregnancy, which is why I feel it is extremely important for people to be aware and bottles to be printed stating problems which could occur with its early use.

I have also paid atention to the positive stories, in which people feel the could have had a good result because of its use, but again these do seem to be when it has been given towards the later stage in the pregnancy although I have also noted a couple of cases when it has been given early and no such probems have occurred.

This also reinforces my tendancy to think that from brand to brand the potency is vastly different.  The brand I am most familiar with is the Denes brand this has 129.6 mg per tablet and is advised from day one, would be really interested to hear what levels are in other brands and from what point it is advised to be given.

I have never used raspberry leaf in any of 4 litters, springer and scottie and have had no problems with whelping or dead pups.

In humans it not advised to use raspberry leaf until 36 -37 weeks gestation and in my experience as a midwife it is used to encourage more effiecient and regular contractions. Doesn't have the effect of inducing labour.

Giving early in a pregnant bitch I would have thought was not advised, but haven't really looked into it for whelping bitches.

its like everything really there are always good and bad reports about things, what works for some doesn't work for others. Its all personal choice at the end of the day.

Ive just used in on my bitch  from 4 weeks and she whelped in 4.5 hours - no problems whatsoever. :-)

We have used Dorwest Raspberry leaf tablets with all our bitches and had 18 litters without any problems. We have had two bitches that required cesareans due to uterine inertia (they had both whelped okay previously, one only had a singleton, so it was not unexpected)
Perhaps we have just been lucky?

We did not use them for our last litter, mainly due to this controversy, but the gestation and whelping was the same as all our other litters. It has made us question whether they actually do anything or not, I think the effect is probably neutral in our experience, it certainly wasn't a problem using them.

Help i cant see the first page of the post wand wanted to send it to a friend of mine can any one send me a copy to i@wizzizz.co.uk

Go to the top post on the second page and click on the upward pointing arrow wizzizz.  That will get you back to the first page. :)

Thanks