I have been researching the contra indications of giving Raspberry leaf as a supplement to a pregnant bitch, this stuff is widely available from health stores promoting it's virtue's for easy and fast birth, so you would expect it to be perfectly safe, right? well draw your own conclusions from what I have discovered.

Firstly I would like to quote Karen copely from whelpwise, this taken from a seminar in which she recently spoke, she says and I quote
PHChristy: Can I ask about problems with red raspberry leaf you have observed?

WhelpWise: We keep outcome statistics on everyone who uses the service

WhelpWise: we look at diet, supplements, c-section rate, fetal mortality rate

WhelpWise: what we noticed very early on was a much higher fetal mortality rate for people who were using anything with red raspberry or any of the other uterine stimulants

WhelpWise: this contrasted sharply with the mortality rate of people who were not using them, 33 percent fetal mortality with, 5-7 percent without

WhelpWise: red raspberry is sold to make the uterus stronger

WhelpWise: people think by "exercising" the uterus it will get stronger and you will have a faster, better whelping

WhelpWise: what people don't realize is that the uterus is made out of smooth muscle, not skeletal muscle like your arms and legs

WhelpWise: smooth muscle is what lines the inside of your blood vessels and bronchial tubes, you have no control over it

WhelpWise: by stimulating it with red raspberry you cannot make it stronger, but you can make it more irritable

WhelpWise: irritable means that instead of having a nice relaxed smooth uterus for the placenta to burrow into and establish a good blood supply, it is constricted and hard, not allowing good placental attachment, thus causing premature placental separation and fetal death

On reading this I became exremely worried so I contacted our own National Service Helpline and asked what the present recommendations were about raspberry leaf for pregnant women.  The lady I spoke to there was very helpful, it appears that this product is under research at the moment, it has been shown to cause miscarriages between 10-16 weeks into pregnancy, case studies have also been done using rats.

She then looked up the product from the two reference guides that they use on herbal remedies, the first being Mosby's handbook of herbs and natural supplements by Linda Skidmore Roth and the second being -Herbal medicines 2nd ed by Joanne Burnes, Linda Anderson and David Philipson, in a big green contra indications box this product is no longer being recommended to be taken by pregnant women as it is under study and more tests and reaserch is being caried out on it.

I will leave you to draw your own conclusions as to whether or not you may still think this stuff is safe, I for one will not be touching it with a bargepole. My research has also revealed to me that because of the nature of this supplement ie it is known for making the uterus wall stronger the critical implantation stage for the embryos would be in peril, the may never attatch and could be reabsorbed, I have also come to the conclusion that it could cause a bitch to abort some or all or her pups, reducing what might have been a larger litter to just 2 or 3.  It can also make the onset of labour happen before it is supposed to.  Of course as with everything there are people who have used this with great results but have they had great results because of it?  I wonder if the results would have been similar had they not have used it at all, I also have to conclude that as with anything, some products can have no effect, some can have good effects and some can have devastating effects, I am not prepared to take the chance to find out which category my bitch falls under.

For those of you still convinced, read this, it is what I have been waiting for from Karen, and I received it very late last night, it also explains why some people have had good results whilst others devastating:-

Red RaspberryBy Karen Copley RNC BSN
Many dog breeders have used Red Raspberry as the miracle cure for all whelping and pregnancy ills.  With the introduction of uterine contraction monitoring, through the WhelpWise service, potential problems that can develop with the use of Red Raspberry have been discovered.

Many people do not realize that when they are giving or taking "herbal remedies" they are in fact ingesting drugs.  Most of our prescription drugs come from plants, fungi, or bacteria.  The advantage that a drug has over the plant is that the drug has a known quantity and quality of the chemical it is providing.  Herbal preparations can vary significantly in the amount of chemical they contain.  One batch may have a minimal amount, the next toxic levels.  People also should understand is how this plant/drug works, what is the desired effect and will I achieve it, and what are the potential risks of administering this plant/drug. 

Red Raspberry does exactly what the distributors say it does.  It makes the uterus contract.  What the knowledgeable breeder needs to ask is; do I want my bitch to have contractions?  How can I regulate the contractions so that they are not excessively strong?

The uterus is composed of smooth muscle, not skeletal muscle like our arms and legs.  Other smooth muscles in the body are located in the blood vessels, the intestines, and the bronchial tubes.  Uterine contractions occur throughout life.  Even as you are reading this article, providing of course that you are female, you may experience a contraction as they generally occur one or so every hour.

Someone, somewhere, obviously not aware that smooth muscle does not get stronger with use, decided that the uterus should be exercised; therefore causing contractions during pregnancy will make the uterus stronger.  Quite the contrary.  "Exercising" the uterus makes as much sense as inducing an asthma attack to make your lungs stronger, raising your blood pressure to make your arteries stronger -- or how about diarrhea to make your digestive system more effective? 
The uterus, being a generally smart organ on its own, has specific contraction patterns to facilitate a healthy pregnancy.  A non-pregnant uterus generally has 1 contraction per hour.  As estrus approaches, contractions increase, with 3-4 per hour at ovulation.  The purpose of increased contractions at this point is to help spread the eggs down the uterus so that they do not try to implant in one area.  The second through fifth week of gestation is the time of the least uterine contractions, frequently less than one per hour.  This uterine quiescence provides a stable target for embryos to implant on and for placentas to develop.

Beginning week six, a gradual increase in contractions per hour is noted with the average number of contractions per hour during week eight, being two to three.  The last 24 hours of pregnancy will see the establishment of an organized contraction pattern, with deliveries beginning 8-12 hours after its onset.  Frequently the organized contraction pattern in the early stages is not identifiable without the use of the uterine monitoring equipment; therefore we think a dog's labor is 1-2 hours.

Why would the use of the Red Raspberry be a problem?  If you look at early gestation where it is best for the uterus not contract, Red Raspberry can actually cause the fertilized eggs to be expelled.  A moving uterus also makes a difficult target for the embryos to implant on, as healthy placentas must burrow into the uterine endometrium to remain well attached.  A difficult task if the uterus is contracting.  If placentas do not become well attached, less blood and oxygen supply will be available resulting in smaller, less vigorous pups and possibly resorbtions.  Labor, the time of most stress on the placenta and puppy, can cause premature placental separation if the placenta is not well attached. 

Use of Red Raspberry during labor can cause contractions to be to long and/or to strong.  Every time the uterus contracts the blood supply to the puppy is cut off because the blood vessels going to the puppy go through the uterine muscle.  When the muscle contracts, the blood supply is cut off.  If Red Raspberry is used there is no way to regulate the amount of chemical entering the system, and no way to prevent over-stimulating the uterus.  Exceptionally strong contractions contribute to puppy compromise by decreasing oxygen to the puppy, causing premature placental separation and in some cases, uterine rupture.  Additionally, the unregulated use of oxytocin, especially in high doses has the same effect. 

Documented cases of premature labor have also been associated with the use of Red Raspberry.  Fortunately, with the early detection of the contraction pattern, and the use of medications to stop the labor, these cases were able to make it to their due dates.

My advice for pregnancy and whelping:

Pregnancy is a process best left alone. Interventions can be very detrimental. One of the best things that you can do for your expectant Mom is make sure she has a healthy diet.  Feed a dog food designed for pregnancy, or, feed a well balanced dog food (free of chemical preservatives), through week six, then switch to puppy food.  If you are feeding the raw diet make sure that you have adequate levels of protein, calcium and vitamin D. Food supplementation the last week and a half of pregnancy with a natural dairy food like cottage cheese or yogurt will help with the "picky eater" syndrome.



A multi-vitamin supplement is OK, but make sure you read the label to see that it does not contain Red Raspberry. Whelping interventions should only be made when there is a documented problem.  Medication such as Oxytocin should be only used if indicated, and in very small amounts.  Ideally no medication should be given unless a uterine contraction monitor is used. Mother nature has actually done a very good job designing the reproduction process.  It is important for us to support the process, not interrupt it with unnecessary interventions, potentially causing harm along the way. Hope this hasn't upset anybody who has had any bad experiences whilst using this stuff and all I can say is to those of you who haven't - you have been very lucky, I also think this info is important for all the women out there who are still using this stuff for themselves during pregnancy, and cannot understand why this stuff DOES NOT come with warnings. 

Thank you for going to the trouble of such a comprehensive post :)  I have always felt the advise regarding the use of raspberry leaf was contradictory to my, rather simpler ;), understanding of it causing the uterus to contract which always seemed at odds to me with it's use in early pregnancy.
I also heartily agree with the comments regarding the relative merits of herbal drugs and refined pharmaceutical products.

It was interesting to read this - I used it once with one of my bitches and she had problems - I've never used it again.

I was researching it for myself initially as I was actually considering using this stuff on one of my own, I must say it took an awful lot of effort to find out the medical reasons for the contra indications and feel very angry that knowing what I know now, that this stuff is STILL being recommended by healthstores. for bitches or indeed women who are pregnant. The knowledge I have gained from this research quite simply HAD to be shared by me with all well meaning breeders out there who are still ignornant of the damage this stuff can actually do, it was also important to me to be able to back up my claims with medical evidence.

Top marks for using quality study skills you don't see a lot of that on the internet do you. :)  I have to say, though, your email address looks a bit iffy   Looking at your other posts, though, the explanation does not seem obvious.

My email addy looks iffy? what do you mean?

Where have your been? :D
Designerdogs has connotations that I don't think you mean :).  To many it is a term referring to dogs put together from more than one breed to exploit a desire for cute little animals with cute little 'breed' names regardless of health or ethical issues.  Looking at your previous posts I suspect you are using the term meaning well put together pedigrees, pleeeeeese correct me if I am wrong ;), but I think you have chosen an unfortunate phrase and you might find yourself receiving unwelcome enquiries!

OOH LOL I see what you mean roflmao, it is the name of our business lol we are professional dog groomers!!!!

Got ya! I suppose it was none of my business but I'm quite often guilty of that ;) and having read your previous posts it did seem odd and I suspected it was applied innocently :)

I always had doubts, after reading a bit about raspberry leaf. My concerns started when I wondered why, if it aids whelping, would it also be recommended for stopping phantom pregnancy?

I am very concerned about all this, anybody wishing to pass this info on to any other groups which you may be part of has my full permission to cross post, the more people who hear about this the better as they will then be in an informed position to make the choice to use it or not.

Thanks very much for this. I've never used Raspberry leaf (or any other supplement) in pregnacy but it is good to see such a nice piece of solid information presented so well. Congatulations to you :)

Thank you for your post, I will cross post it, I think it is very important for information such as this to be circulated.

In the 'old days'60's 70's i remember women used to drink raspberry leaf tea if their babies were overdue.

That makes more sense.

If it cuts litter size, I'm very glad I used it on my bitch who had a litter of 10! ;)

I don't think it works out that selectively :)  Looking at the physiological effects the risk of total miscarriage looks too high to me.

As the 'blurb' for the ones I've used successfully since 1976 (no stillbirths or neo-natal deaths at all) says that uterine muscle is smooth etc I'll carry on with them next time I have a litter. :)

I remember some years back on here a US poster was spelling out the difference between 'raspberry leaf' and 'red raspberry leaf', one being fine and the other not. As the product I've used successfully is simple 'raspberry leaf', perhaps that's where the difference lies?

The evidence that shanti has presented does not suggest miscarriage will always occur but increase the risk.  I'm afraid it does add up to me, not withstanding suppliers knowing the type of muscle the uterus is composed of :)

I am currently investigating the satement that red raspberry leaf and raspberry leaf are two different things, I do however feel that they are the same animal, and I have found equally disturbing results with raspberry leaf, the one that is currently under investigation by our own national health service is indeed said to be raspberry leaf and not red raspberry, of course anything I find I will immediately inform of.

The botanical name for the cultivated variety of raspberry leaf is 'Rubus idaeus'. However, there is also the more potent wild variety called 'Rosaceae strigosus'. Other common names are 'red raspberry', 'bramble' and 'hindberry'.

I would indeed appear to be the same animal

The Raspberry or Red Raspberry (Rubus idaeus) is a plant that produces a tart, sweet, red composite fruit in summer or early autumn.

The above taken from an encyclopedia, it is definately the same thing.

I only ever used this once on a GSD bitch. She whelped 7 days early and after having one pup then went into secondary inertia necessitating a C-Section, the other 12 (Yes  12) pups were OK but I always wondered about the use of raspberry leaf after and was not happy about it, the Vet just thought that 13 pups had become too much for her to carry and the one at the end got pushed out early, but I am not sure, still no harm done that time but I can see your reasoning here.

I've never heard of 'bramble' as being a name for raspberry in the UK. It usually refers to the blackberry - another rubus species. As Wikipedia says about the bramble: In popular UK usage the term primarily refers to the blackberry bush; in Scotland and the north of England it refers to both the blackberry bush and its fruit.

We could have a confusing example here of two nations divided by a common language.

Um look here Rubus idaeus
is a rasberry :-
http://www.rhs.org.uk/rhsplantfinder/fruit.asp
Lea:)

Yes I know. :) But in the UK a 'bramble' is a blackberry, not a raspberry, but Shanti was saying that a bramble is another name for a raspberry. This is what could be causing confusion. :)

Would just like to clarify one point, I have not come on here to get into any arguements or debates with anyone, I simply wanted to share my findings on something which I know has a great big question mark over it's head, call it raspberry leaf, call it red raspberry, it is exactly the same thing, for those of you who choose to ignore this information and take the chance anyway, that is exactly what it is , your choice, your dogs.  I just felt that there are people on here who would want to know what the medical findings have been, and as I said in an earlier post if you have had no problems then I feel given the information I now know, that you have been extremely lucky.

Very fair comment, Shanti. :)

I know that for the one whelping I didn't use raspberry leaf tablets was the one that went 5 days late, the bitch needed oxytocin and we only just avoided a c-section.

Thank you, I still feel you have been lucky though, if you read through my posting again you will see that the reason I feel this stuff is so dangerous is there are not the stringent medical requirements for an exactly measured quantity of the 'drug' in herbal remedies and that is exactly what it is whatever you want to call it, it is still a drug, whereas with prescription medincines you tend to know exactly what levels of each compound are in that drug, could it be that the brand you have been using has lower doses than others? I do not know, but I do feel that some brands must have such a high level of this compound in they are infact toxic, and it is the luck of the draw that one batch is going to be the same as the next. 

Oh and just for the record bramble refers to blackberries and raspberries and that is a uk classification

there are not the stringent medical requirements for an exactly measured quantity of the 'drug' in herbal remedies and that is exactly what it is whatever you want to call it, it is still a drug, whereas with prescription medincines you tend to know exactly what levels of each compound are in that drug

Exactly why I won't use any of these things for myself or my dogs. IMO 'herbal' medicines should be treated like conventional medicines and tested properly for efficacy and safety and regulated so that a known amount of the active ingredient goes into the product. People foolishly assume that because these things are marketed as 'natural', 'holistic' etc they are safe, but it ain't necessarily so.

I am also assuming by this as you has said you have always used the stuff for years that one of your bitches has suffered at the hands of this 'drug'

By Jeangenie Date 12.02.05 22:58 GMT
I've only had a bitch palpated twice - the first time the vet felt "6 or 7" and she had 4 ... the second time he felt 5, and she had 5. I'm assuming in the first litter some whelps died and were reabsorbed. I only use palpation as a confirmation of pregnancy, not to ascertain numbers.

I personally wouldn't X-ray unless it was absolutely necessary; if doctors advise against X-rays for pregnant women in case the foetus is damaged, I feel it must also be dangerous for dogs.

???

The fact of resorption is no reason for linkage with raspberry leaf, because whelps can be resorbed when the bitch wasn't given raspberry leaf.

I'm not sure why you're querying avoidance of x-rays? What has that got to do with raspberry leaf or palpation? The post you're quoting was put during a debate about methods of determining whether or not a bitch is pregnant.

You are right it is not right to link any individual event to the use of any treatment, for or against.   The studies referred to in shanti's post are what make it interesting and compelling as evidence as far as I am concerned.

I'm sure you're right. :) It would be interesting to know the numbers involved in the studies, including the control group. Obviously the number of bitches I've personally had is far too small to give any meaningful conclusion for the population as a whole.

Yes, it would be good to know the numbers but the report itself is suggestive of a fairly scientific endeavour to me.

I used this product along with wheatgerm oil on my last Golden. we usually have large litters (8 +). The bitch struggled with labour produced a stillborn, then 2 pups, one died after a few days, leaving us with a distressed bitch and a singleton. After reading this I will never use this product again. I had never used this before on my other bitches and had no problems with whelps. I think the advice given by whelpwise says it all. Thank you for the posting

jeangenie the x rays was just part of your post and has nothing whatsoever to do with this current topic, I was simply trying to make you aware that seeing as you are so in favour of this product and seeing as you have stated that you have used it for many years without consequence that maybe you are wrong, just maybe the raspberry leaf which you have stated you always use was responsible for this absorbtion, and maybe it has been responsible for others of which you are not aware because you didn't have the bitch palpatated, I suggest you think about that. 

>seeing as you are so in favour of this product

No, I've never said that at all - what I've said is that I've never had any problems with it, not that nobody's had problems with it. There's a massive difference! It's a fact that resorption happens whether or not bitches are given raspberry leaf, and there's no possible of way of knowing what would have happened if it had/hadn't been given, because you can't turn the clock back and try the other alternative.

>maybe the raspberry leaf which you have stated you always use was responsible for this absorbtion

Equally, maybe it wasn't and it was something totally unrelated; a lethal gene combination, perhaps. Surmising what 'might have been' is totally unscientific and of no consequence. In my experience it's caused no problems - maybe my breed metabolises this substance differently to other breeds, just as it's known to metabolise other chemicals differently.

pardon me for misunderstanding but this part of your post:-

As the 'blurb' for the ones I've used successfully since 1976 (no stillbirths or neo-natal deaths at all) says that uterine muscle is smooth etc I'll carry on with them next time I have a litter.

Lead me to believe that you are in favour of them, are you now saying you are not?

I'm neither particularly pro nor anti; I wouldn't tell people that they should give them, nor that they shouldn't. Just that I've used them for years and haven't come across any problems with them.

(I referred to the 'smooth muscle' part because your first post quoted someone as saying that this fact isn't understood, whereas it's clearly referred to by the manufacturers of the product.)

Oh right, glad we've got that cleared up

Just curious, but what was the wheatgerm oil being given for?

'Rubus idaeus'. is the one I used  HvS is the Maunfacturer and the instructions on " concentrate" were 5-30 drops  depending on weight. With no weight Measurement or guide.  I used 5 drops only.

I have only used rasperry leaf once with terrible results. My bitch started to bleed very very heavily approx 6  hours after giving it to her. It was her second litter everything was perfect.  I elected a C section. my one and only c-section in 7 litters. I was so concerned for the bitch.

1 puppy survived that was hand reared due to no milk with her coming so soon.  My vet 100% agreed with me that RL was the cause. He did try to make me feel better but I knew and he knew.

I have posted this a few times on here.

Nobody would convince me otherwise that this was the cause. When she was opened up there were no complications due to whelping just a bleeding cervix.

The vet said it may have settled down after another 24 hours but I wasn't risking my bitch.

Blue so sorry to hear about your experience, it must have been quite dreadful for you, would you mind if I asked when you started to give the RL?  this is another point which concerns me with this stuff because some brands state for it to be given 3 weeks into whelp, whilst other say it should be given from day one, I have some stuff which I have never and now will never use and it actually says to use for day of conception right through whelp, but to double the dose after week 5, which would make a dose of a massive 6oomg per day    but my friend has a different brand, which states from 3 weeks onwards into whelp.

I really feel angry that this stuff is still being promoted as beneficial in pregnancy, I have plans to contact manufacturers and put my fears and finding to them.

Would also be interested to hear from anyone else who thinks that a bad experience they have had could have been because of RL and again when they started to administer it, thank you.

I have never used it in bitches but was mistakenly told that I should take it throughout pregnancy and I took it in early pregnancy - I had a miscarriage at 12 weeks.

Woah!!  You are falling of the scientific straight and narrow, shanti :)  Good researchers do not look for evidence in support of their expected outcome they dispassionately collect all available data ;)  Even if you did ask for all experiences and managed to compensate for bias you are not likely to gain enough information like this to make it statistically relevent.  Too often we see information 'gathering' on the internet but I am surprised to see you doing it :)

HI Shanti,

I've had three experiences of using Raspberry leaf in my bitches.  All three bitches had healthy pregnancies and healthy puppies, all litters of a normal size, all puppies of the expected weight.  Everything was textbook :)

The last litter I bred (fourth one) I didn't bother with the Raspberry leaf.  The bitch had total inertia and had to have a C section. 

I have no feelings about it's use either way.

Hope this helps in your investigations.

Debs