:) Hurrah! :)

I understand perfectly what you say Rose, I just don't agree with it. 
I believe it would be unethical not to use byproducts in animal feeds and frankly can see no reason not to.

That is utterly ridiculous. Do you really think with all the business moguls behind celebs they'd be so keen to promote PETA.

2004 Winter
Five-Year Prison Sentence for Michigan Man Who Hanged and Beat a Dog to Death

PETA wrote to authorities and posted an action alert about a tragic case in which an 88-year-old man's dog, Sadie, was beaten and hanged while the man's business was burglarized. The perpetrator has been sentenced to five years in prison.

Kentucky Abusers Charged With Cruelty for Starving and Beating Dogs

PETA got authorities to obtain a search warrant and arrest a juvenile and an adult in Pikesville, Kentucky, for stealing, staking, starving, and beating dogs. They were charged with cruelty to animals, and all the animals were seized.

Seven-Week-Old Pit Bull Puppy Saved After Being Fed Cocaine
PETA's Community Animal Project came to the rescue of a 7-week-old pit bull puppy who had swallowed a 30 rock of crack/cocaine at a party and had been having seizures for 24 hours. We rushed the suffering puppy for immediate vet care, but she had to be euthanized.

Missouri Breeder Slapped With $26,000 Fine and Five Years' Probation
PETA put pressure on local authorities when officers found 34 cats and 28 dogs suffering from various illnesses and injuries, including missing limbs and eyes. Eight of the cats were found dead, the surviving animals' source of water was melted snow that had leaked through the ceiling, and animals were engaging in cannibalism. The abuser was given five years' probation and forced to pay $26,000 in restitution to the Humane Society of Missouri, which sought medical treatment for all the animals.

North Carolina Breeder Hit With 21 Counts of Mistreatment
PETA notified animal control in Jacksonville, North Carolina, about an abusive breeder. Officers found dogs crammed into stacked cages outdoors, where they were constantly exposed to the elements and many were without food or water, and they filed 21 counts of animal mistreatment against the breeder.

  These are just some of PETA's results in 2004, if I listed them all it would be neverending. I have never seen anything saying kidnap pets & would be interested in the link. There are some hardcore animal rights groups out there, (Animal Liberation Front), but PETA does a hell of alot for welfare and I think the multitude of animals they save far outweighs any bad.

Spook, you may be interested in reading this.  The more I read the PETA website, the more I am torn between disbelief and amusement.  Try telling my cats that according to PETA, it would be kinder for them to keep them indoors?!  There is one word IMO for some of the stuff they publish on their website: Ridiculous.

That's the article I was referring to but couldn't access at work. Thanks, spaniel-lover.
:)

No problem JG, I had a look after you referred to it further up the page, and was shocked at some of the stuff they publish!

-Kay

Many people don't realise how extreme an organisation it is. :(

Have you read the page that recommends vegetarian and vegan diets for dogs and cats!!! That just shows how much they truly know about animals.

I've never quite seen the value of celebrity endorsements, are they any more intelligent, informed or discerning than the average, not if CBB is anything to go by  :D   They have also been known to withdraw their endorsement when big bucks have been thrown at them to model furs for instance :) so how deep were their convictions in the first place.

< Each and every one of us can make a difference. Please, make a pledge right now to take personal responsibility, not just for neutering your own companion animals, but also to neuter or spay every unsterilized animal you encounter. Is there an unneutered cat hanging around the back porch? Does your neighbor have an unaltered dog chained up in the yard? Is your coworker giving away a litter of kittens? Provide information on spaying and neutering and ask animal guardians when they plan to have the surgery done. Be persistent. If they make excuses, arrange to have the animals altered yourself. >

So Spook, you consider that PETA are an ethical and sane organisation? The above paragraph was lifted from their corporate website!
If you don't believe me, try this website: http://www.helpinganimals.com/i-nobirth.html

They must be okay because of celebrity endorseements, you have got to be joking!

The IQ of many 'celebrities' is only just above retarded, have you never watched a celebrity reality show?  Many celebrities also endorse (or rather participate in) snorting cocaine, binge drinking & adultery!

Look how many 'celebrities' you see driving monster 4x4 utility vehicles, perhaps we should all get them and deplete the planet of resources even more quickly? After all, if they endorse them they must be okay!

Snomaes

I am seriously considering grabbing my neighbours 2 cats and taking them in to get spayed and neutered!Over the past year,they and their offspring have probaly produced more than 100 stray cats The owners dont see the kittens as their responsibility,now these people truly are ignorant!

Then there's the entire dogs howling,roaming and fighting looking desperately for the huge amount of *in season* pet bitches,dont get me started on them!Now i know most of these belong to irresponsible owners,but alot of trouble and euthanasia etc. could be halted if someone would just get these animals neutered.

I 100% agree with peta's statements on providing information about spaying and neutering.
But i am one of those people who think every *pet dog* should be neutered or spayed,but thats a whole different thread :)

My God, where the H*ll do you live?!! I know very few neutered animals and life just isn't as you describe! There are no 'howling, roaming and fighting,' dogs because their owners are responsible!

Scotland.

I'm not saying ALL dogs are like that,but i have met quite a few.

I was taking my 4 neutered and spayed dogs for a walk the other day and this little entire male jack russell just would not stop humping my girls,even tho they were snarling at him as they had clearly had enough!The owner just chuckled and said "at a boy" "what a man" etc. etc. I've met other male dogs just like this on numerous occasions!!

I also had an incident at the local park with a randy entire golden retreiver,he wanted to get it on with one of my girls,so i quickly picked her up(thank god it was one of my little dogs),the dog then got up on his hind legs,dug his front paws onto my shoulders and proceeded to hump me all the way back to my car(it really hurt) the owner was no-where to be seen :rolleyes:
I have to laugh about it now as it would have been a funny site,but i was right peeved off at the time!

Before i got one of my mastiffs spayed and she was in season,desperately trying to get out the front door,running away from me at every opportunity,which she had never done before or since AND there were 2 dogs sitting at my doorstep nearly every night which made her even more frantic to get out,it was a nightmare,i felt so bad for her :( needless to say i got her spayed as soon as i could!

When i was younger we had an entire male that constantly marked his territory INSIDE,our white curtains were yellow!This stopped completely when we got him neutered. You could not pay me to keep whole males or females.

Scotland is a very big place, surely not all dogs in Scotland behave like this!!

Well certainly not in the part of Scotland I live in. I very rarely see any dogs on their own

Anne

That's very strange - I've never had any of those problems with entire bitches or dogs. None of my friends report things like that either. Perhaps they add something to the water in your area?

Was going to say the same JG ....in all the years of owning dogs(all my life!) I have never encountered 'horrors' like these.I have never had a male try to mount my speyed bitch with such verosity(shown interest...yes) ...and none of my boys ALL OF WHICH HAVE BEEN ENTIRE have ever tried to mount a bitch unless she was in season
Archer

:D :D Rose, your post is highly entertaining, thanks for that, it lifted my spirits after a tedious meeting!  No, not all dogs in Scotland are like that-infact, I too have never seen a dog without an owner present, nor have I witnessed fighting, howling etc-or hundreds of stray cats!? :D  It does make me wonder where exactly it is you live Rose, and how the other residents manage, what with the over-population of cats and hormone-charged loose dogs running freely?? :D

I hear you Rose! I've neutered loads and loads of cats. We're surrounded by feral colonies and FIV is rife in our area. Your cats are a whole lot safer if you can keep them indoors or aleast provide suitable outdoor areas for them. Working in welfare you see so many cats PTS because of suffering caused by irresponsible owners it's horrific. I don't see ANY harm in educating people about spaying/neutering. I don't know why anyone would want a cat that wasn't 'done'. Even cat breeders keep only the essential studs. Toms spray and queens are more than capable of screaming the place down torturing themselves with wantoness and if they do get caught kitty passion is far from pleasant. There is no reason for non breeding stock not to be done.
Dogs I see as a totally different kettle of fish. That really is down to responsible ownership. Disease and population overload are a real threat in the cat world. A high number of dogs found roaming are picked up and spayed/castrated before being rehomed, few cats are taken in by shelters in comparison.
As for PETA, you don't have to agree with all their policy, you can twist their words to suit your own agenda, but I think it would be a huge loss to animals if Peta were not around. I'm all for them.:)

But Spook, would you agree with someone taking it upon themselves to take your cat or dog to have it neutered without your knowledge or permission?  You say you have neutered "loads and loads of cats" - is this with or without consent of an owner or organisation?  Or are we purely discussing feral cats?  You haven't addressed the issue in your reply of PETA encouraging people to: "Provide information on spaying and neutering and ask animal guardians when they plan to have the surgery done. Be persistent. If they make excuses, arrange to have the animals altered yourself." - there is no twisting of words here, nor do I have any agenda, this is a direct quote.  Why should anyone have the right to take an animal that does not belong to them, let alone pass it off as their own to have a medical procedure performed on it?  Incidently, I wonder if those who carry out such actions volunteer theirselves responsible for the after care and payment of such following "arranging to have the animals altered" themselves?

On a further note, I have always had cats as pets: as a child growing up and now I have 3 of my own.  I have never had to have a cat PTS for anything other than an incurable illness and therefore, it was in the cat's best interests.  I have only ever had one cat suffer any kind of injury whilst out which involved him having a toe amputated.  But bless him, he's not the smartest of felines, and has a habit of sitting in the middle of the road.  However, there is no way (even after that) I would consider keeping him or the other 2 in the house or could keep them in-when they wish to go out, they go out, and come back in when they want to, in my mind that's what makes them happy and as cats, I believe they would be far less happy being confined to my house which is of more than adequate size-they enjoy the great outdoors far too much.  It's difficult to ascertain from your post if you believe that my allowing my cats out (and yes, they are all neutered) renders me an "irresponsible owner", but if so, then I would rather take my own interpretation of my cat's happiness by allowing them out.  I can also just imagine their faces if I tried to introduce a PETA-recommended vegan diet... :)

-Kay

I think as Rose said if you are aware of a cat having multiple litters,with no responsibility being taken by the owner, where the cats health is suffering and the kittens are left to their own devices...then having that cat done is better for the cat & quite frankly I doubt that kind of owner would care as long as they weren't paying. This has always been my experience.
I don't dictate how you should keep your cats. Toms roam a 4 mile territory,queens a mile. My cats venture into my garden in the summer heat, but all in all rarely leave the house. I know alot of people who have their gardens cat proofed, keeping their cats in and others out if I had a roaming tom I'd be happier doing this for his safety, peace of mind and I wouldn't have upset gardening neighbours:) It really depends on the area you live in and the nature of the individual cat.
I did address that point from PETAs website :)
I worked in feline welfare for a number of years both domestic and feral :) And no...I couldn't imagine a vegan pet either having once looked after a vegan dog for a friend and being gassed constantly by his flatulance.

This and this explain why PETA is wrong about vegetarian (or worse, vegan) diets for cats.

Spaniel-lover i really cant work out if your being sarcastic or what!

I definately do not agree with vego diets for dogs and it would be a death sentence to make a cat,a carnivore, a vego,now that is wrong!

As i have said NOT ALL dogs i have met are like this,it's just the ones i have met that are entire  have put me off for life! And it's just MY neighbours who are irrisponsible with their cats and let them roam and mate at their discretion,we just love the howling and catterwaling at our window at 4am some mornings :rolleyes:

I dont mind indoor cats as long as they have been brought up like this from birth,it would be very cruel to make an outdoor cat an inside one! But i do not agree with letting cats out at all hours,i would be too paranoid to let mine out in the dark,the last cat i let do that got hit by a car and died :( I call mine in about 4pm and thats where they stay until the morning,away from them horrible ferals!

And seeing everyone is so interested,i live in edinburgh. Just remember every place has their bad seeds!

Rose, I too live in Edinburgh..  And yet I have never seen any of the problems you describe.  However, perhaps that is just my end of town, there are few "bad seeds" around here. ;)

Mine is the only neighbour i know of that is so intensly irsponsible with the cats,i just struck bad luck when i moved in next to them!!

I see that little jack russell ALL the time,if the owner is on the other side of the path he will detour over to my direction,partly i think because he thinks it's funny watching his dog try and *rape*for lack of a better word,my dogs.
The golden retrievers owne(lives near me)r lets the dog out while he is at work,cos he couldnt be bothered walking him,i have tried to tell him numerous times to get him neutered,but he says it will "de-man" him,how ridiculous!! He is free to roam at large and is very good at sniffing out in season females :(

There has always been idiot owners no matter where i have lived,i'm out with my dogs alot,so i have more chance of running into them,i suppose??

Some of us just 'attract' them :D I'd report lab to the local dog warden for it's own safety. :)