Probably cost less for the two as well.

Excellent solution one off each with a gap between pups :)

Excellent post Zan, says it all. I have no problem with accidental matings thus producing a crossbreed, but for anyone to do it on purpose it is purely financial. You only have to see how many litters are being bred on the farms in Leicestershire, all using each others stud dogs, to see how the crossbreeds are actually being abused. These are not actually puppy farmers just puppy producers. How many pedigree dogs bred by responsible breeders are being abused this way? And Rabid, I am certainly not concerned as to how many puppy owners I lose as I only breed 1 litter every two years or so!!! No puppy producer here! Also I have refused someone who wanted me to allow my dog to be used on their Poodle bitch, so loss of stud fee also! am I bovered!

But there are two issues which are getting confused, here:

1) Irresponsible breeding (whether of crossbreeds or pedigrees) - which involves too close-breeding, raising puppies in bad circumstances with little socialisation etc.

And

2)  Crossbreeds.

Just because someone is *intentionally* breeding crossbreeds does not necessarily mean they will 'all use each others stud dogs' and become 'puppy producers'. 

The two issues are completely separate, it just happens that often they are found together.  It is, though, possible to breed crossbreeds responsibly and ethically with care for health and socialisation. 

And it is equally possible to breed pedigree dogs irresponsibly, with little concern for health or socialisation. 

If your view is that all breeding should be from health tested good examples of their breed then I cannot see why anyone would waste their limited breeding potential of their bitch by producing crossbreeds, rather than adding their good genes to improve their own breed.

Certain working types excepted where the working and health qualities only are the selection criteria.

Therefore my personal objection is not to crossbreeds in the dogs themselves (like all dogs they had no choice in being born) but the irresponsibility of most of the breeders breeding purely for a market for a current fad, and pandering to the ignorance of the buyer, this applies equally well to poorly bred purebreds, but is even worse as often they are charging double the price they could get for the poor examples of the parent breeds.

It also more easily allows them to abuse their bitches, alternating purebred and crossbred litters.

This is not the same as the accidental cross of years gone by, as with people there is no real excuse nowadays for accidental litters/babies.

>then I cannot see why anyone would waste their limited breeding potential of their bitch by producing crossbreeds, rather than adding their good genes to improve their own breed.

Because there is market demand for them, and if responsible breeders don't meet that market demand, irresponsible breeders will. 

Because there is market demand for them, and if responsible breeders don't meet that market demand, irresponsible breeders will. 

Just because there is a market demand does not mean respectable breeders should supply regardless.

Good posts broody and brainless where is that like button

Just because someone is *intentionally* breeding crossbreeds does not necessarily mean they will 'all use each others stud dogs' and become 'puppy producers'. 

Actually it does because nobody responsible will allow their stud dog to be used on a bitch of a different breed.

Couldn't cope with 2 together :-) like the 9 month age gap my 2 have .... Get one toilet trained first lol! Bit like babies :-D

do i steer clear of crosses?

They are mongrels, you might end up with a much healthier, you might end up with all the problems of one of the breeds, or you might end up with a much more unhealthier dog than either of the parents were.

If you got a mongrel with unknown relatives your chances of getting a healthier dog than any of those are probably higher.

If you want a pedigree dog with a high probability of its being far beyond the average health of the same breed in UK then you have to go to Europe, what you probably do not know is the fact the Kennel Club is the only pedigree dog club in Europe which does not have mandatory health testing of the breeds, in Europe mandatory health testing for every dog in the breed, in its country, has been in existence for decades.

Below is the mandatory health testing standards (link below that), the information gives you a choice, either get a diseased dog from here, or do a minimum of a 21 mile x channel hop & get a healthy one.

Europe regulations, all countries.

1. The International Breeding Regulations of the Fédération Cynologique Internationale (FCI) are binding on all member countries and contract partners.
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·  The only dogs which are considered to be healthy in hereditary terms are those transferring breed standard features, breed type and temperament typical of that breed without displaying any substantial hereditary defects which could impair the functional health of its descendants. The members and contract partners of the FCI are required in this regard to prevent any exaggeration of breed features in the standards which could result in impairment of the dogs' functional health.

·  Dogs with eliminating faults such as e.g. unsound temperament, congenital deafness or blindness, hare-lip, cleft palate, substantial dental defects or jaw anomalies, PRA, epilepsy, cryptorchidism, monorchidism, albinism, improper coat colours or diagnosed severe hip dysplasia may not be bred.

·  With regard to surfacing hereditary defects, e.g. HD or PRA, the FCI member countries and contract partners are obliged to record affected animals, combat these defects in a methodical manner continuously record their development and report to the FCI on this matter when requested.

·  The FCI, its member countries and contract partners are supported by the Scientific Commission in relation to evaluation, assistance and advice in combating hereditary defects.  In case the Scientific Commission would issue a catalogue of measures, the same shall be binding on being adopted by the FCI General Committee.

·  Competence and responsibility for breeding rests with the member countries and contract partners of the FCI and includes breeding guidance, breeding advice and monitoring breeding as well as the keeping of the studbook.

Breeding and development of dog breeds must be based on long-term objectives and sound principles so that the breeding does not result in diseases, bad temperament and lack of working skills.

http://www.fci.be/uploaded_files/Breeding_EN.doc
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An interesting post and quite correct, in parts, in theory. However I know of european dogs that do not meet the stringent criteria laid down on more than one count, unfortunately we do not live in an ideal world and people will circumvent the rules if they are of that mindset.
If anybody wanted a healthy dog they need only to do their homework, extensive thought this may be - nothing wrong with that in my opinion, and they have a very good chance of getting a healthy dog here.
The KC is not without its faults but many breeders work to much higher standards than required by the UK KC or any other KC for that matter.
jeff.

Below is the mandatory health testing standards (link below that), the information gives you a choice, either get a diseased dog from here, or do a minimum of a 21 mile x channel hop & get a healthy one.

Funny then how my import has a higher hip score than most of his breed here, and how at least Sweden has NO mandatory MRI scanning of Cavaliers for SM (and in  fact they don't even recommend it, all they say is basically "watch how your dog behaves"!) and hence not many people do it at all, whereas here I was able to buy myself a pet pup from parents AND grandparents scanned clear........

hethspaw good breeders adhere to those standards in the UK VOLUNTARILY they do not need to be told to do so. 

Those breeders that are members of the KC Assured Breeders schemes are required in many breeds to use health tested stock as appropriate for the breed concerned, but most will do more.

"now pedigree dogs exposed is a couple of years past the spin doctors are once again promoting the worst possible breeding standards in Europe, no surprises or changes there then."

I thought Europe was the best place to get a pedigree dog?

Sorry to say you seem unable to grasp the concept that many UK breeders (as well as European) work to much higher standards than are required by their respective kennel clubs. The claim that the Assured Breeders Scheme will reduce the gene pool is ludicrous - as an assured breeder it matters not if a stud dog I use is in the scheme or not, I am concerned that it is tested and bred to the same standards I work to.

The fact that you seem only to seize upon certain points for your argument yet ignore those that are not convenient is strangely familiar.
Jeff

Hethspaw,

The problem is you are preaching to the wrong people, we are the responsible breeders who health test and choose our breeding lines carefully. The KC ABS did not just happen, it happened because of people like us pushing our breed clubs and the KC to be much more responsible in registering litters, most of us on the site are fighting very hard to make sure that our breeds are healthy and we are producing quality pups and most of us on the site are.

So you are hitting a brick wall in trying to convince many of us here that our stock is not the best of the best and our pups are not as good as in other countries because they are! And how dare you say otherwise.

What I will agree with you on is that everyone should breed in the same way and that the KC ABS should be mandatory, tougher and upheld by everyone that breeds and that breeding should not be allowed without pups being registered through the ABS.

The biggest and worst problem in all countries is that there are hundreds of thousands of pups born every year to unregistered dogs with no health/temperament testing whatsoever! Those pups are then bred from and so it goes on and on and these pups are flooding the pet market. These are the majority of pedigrees that the vets are judging all breeders on, the show breeders produce only 2% of the pet market.

So no matter how much effort all countries put their official registration of breeding regulations in order, we are missing the point in still allowing all the unregistered litters to just flounce past and cause massive genetic and temperament problems.

This needs addressing and stopping, along with I agree all mandatory health testing for all registered dogs.

By all means Hethspaw put your points across to the KC as we do, and by all means write to our government about the dog breeding epidemic going on as I have, people on here are doing their hardest to protect our breeds and we do produce good quality pups very rude to say otherwise, it is others out there who do not.

This is not solely a Dobe forum.
The stringency of club monitoring may be evident in some countries but is NOT evident in many others, the process you describe simply does not happen in many countries within Europe and the FCI and unfortunately this can also be said of the British KC.

I would agree that imposing mandatory tests could restrict the gene pool which is why many breeders look outside the ABS for appropriate dogs.
Jeff.

So to clarify do you think mandatory health tests are good or bad? As you seem to say we should have them but abroad they shouldn't as it restricts the gene pool.
If we did have mandatory health checks many breeders in the UK have dogs tested far in excess of what I expect would be required - although sadly not enough.
Jeff.

This is not solely a Dobe forum.

Who said or implied it was, I talk of what I know & GSDs or Malamutes are not breeds I can talk about in depth, but for purposes relevant here - I have no idea what the conformation allowance is in Europe for Malamuts, GSDs, Weimeraners or any other breed, I know my own breeds conformation allowance --- . People have their own breeds and its up to them to comment on standards same as it is for me. The way you said that I wondering if you know what the FCI Euro situation is.

There is no such thing as a national KC which has control of the pedigree dogs etc.

Each national breed club in Europe has total control of everything to do with the breed, including pedigree registering, the tests..well everything. Most countries have a national KC but they are just classed as general hobby clubs, if Dutch KC has a show & wants a licensed breed judge for any breed they have to get one licensed by the breed club to judge for them. National KC clubs have no say in the running, showing or anything else of a breed club or, more importantly, the breed.
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Its quite simple, if all breeders refused to enter & attend to show their dogs, notified it all in writing to KC that the entire breed must have the equivillent of FCI tests & standards or you will not show your dogs then your hitting at KC pockets.

You are completely barking up the wrong tree - if only it were that simple. :-)

I think you missed it............. Of the thousands of KC registrated litters a year only 2% of those are show/working breeders, do you really think the 2% of breeders refusing to show our dogs anymore will make a difference to the KC pocket? There are even people in the show world who breed from stock not of the best quality genetically only to breed standard.

The show world does not prop up the KC - at least not anymore, their income comes from the thousands of 'other' breeders out there, some good, many not, which is why it has taken so long to force change, our breeds clubs are the ones who put pressure on the KC they are nothing more than a place of registration but much hard work is forcing them to sit up and back the breed clubs.

Hethspaw. You are very insulting to many of us on this forum who care very deeply about our breeds. We not only fulfill the requirements of the health tests on our stock but go further by showing them under a variety of judges and completing such things as volentary temp testing, as well as working our dogs in the manor to which they were designed for. In my case carting. In others obedience, working trials shepherding etc. We spend hours pouring over pedigrees and bloodlines to eliminate those dogs who are not up to the same standard. Many of us travel to the continent and further to make use of good dogs in other contries there by widening our gene pool and introducing new bloodlines.
You along with the makers of the pedigree dogs program ignore the one really important fact in dog breeding...FIND A GOOD BREEDER.. be that in the UK America, the continent or wherever, good and bad exsist everywhere.
To assume that a cross breed is a healthier dog than a pure bred is foolish. The rescue kennels are full to bursting with cros breeds/ mongrels and poorley bred stock. The only way to avaoid this is to do your homework and find the breeder who ticks all the box's. No disrespect to those of you who take on a rescue you are giving a dog a chance of life and I applaude you for your dedication to an animal who's background is unknown but to those who go out with the sole purpose of getting a "Doodle" beware you are perpetuating a money making exsersise at the detriment to dogs as a whole and are contributing to bad breeding and the numbers of dogs spending thier lives in rescue kennels.
Aileen

2% of those are show/working breeders, do you really think the 2% of breeders refusing to show our dogs anymore will make a difference to the KC pocket?

No I am not sure how far that would move them.

If the bred clubs took on full responsibilty for their breed and took over the pedigree registration and made their registration the official register & confirmation of the authenticity of a breeds pedigree and ran breed championship shows that would end KCs say in anything to do with breeds, they could carry on as a dog hobby club.

> I could go abroad and use a dog if I wanted to.

Many of us have, but the dogs we choose to use have to have the tests that are mandatory for the breed in the ABS scheme here. 

This causes me a problem as in my breeds country of origin where the breed is principally a working breed, they are not doing the Optigen Prcd-PRA testing.

They are hot on Hip testing but not so on eye testing.

they are nothing more than a place of registration

Its completely ridiculas, people who buy a dog here in UK have to go to a buisness organisation to buy a pedigree copy. A buisness organisation running championship shows for dogs? .....to be honest, some of the emails I occassionally get on a youtube site from those with KC registred Dobes about the absolutly terrible health probs their are subject to are difficult to read - some of them seem (more than one writer) to be written whilst they are on the brink of tears about the suffering their dogs are having from health probs, several have been told by their vet not to get another Dobe...its an utter diabolical disgrace the state of UK breeding, I sometimes dont even finish reading some of those messages they are soooo....

but you won't stop bad breeding, and those same people would have bought those dogs without registration, as they do not research tom check the health tests are done.

On a KC registration certificate it will show against the parents names if they have gone through official health screening.  I bet most of those registration certificates (anyone can write out a pedigree) you see do not show health test results fort the parents.

I am luckily in a numerically small breed and peer pressure ensures that all members of the breed club who breed health test their dogs.  Unfortunately there are those who breed outside of the KC system registering with pseudo commercial registries set up for commercial/pet breeders to have a bit of paper.  It has now got to the situation where there are fewer puppies bred in the KC system with care had health testing than outside it, but guess who picks up the pieces and finances breed rescue?

Apart from those puppy buyers who have been cheated as to the quality of their purchase i do sometimes feel that people get what they deserve.

If they are not prepared to research the requirements and health of their breed and locate a breeder who breeds from typical quality specimens of their breed that are health tested, but are only interested in getting a puppy as cheaply/quickly/locally as they can then they get what they deserve.

The message doesn't get through that breeding is not an exact science, but an art, but the chances are hugely increased for success if the right tools are used, but these thinks cannot be done on the cheap, or right when and where the buyer wants.

I find it ridiculous that people often have to wait several weeks or months for a new sofa or car, but yet expect to get a puppy instantly, but sadly that is because they can (if they don't care about the quality of the breeding).  Of course nature being what it is you will always get some dogs that no matter how bad their start that turn out fine, or of course some peoples expectations are low.  some people think ti's normal for a dog to be crippled by arthritis, blind etc by the time it's middle aged.

I have a friend who has been in obedience for 40 years, primarily with rescue dogs.  She bought her husband five years ago a puppy bred from a pet litter.  Reared with loving care, but no health testing, very big and heavy with front legs that touch at the pasterns and turn out at the feet.  she knows GSD's should have hips tested, but she wasn't prepared to go to dedicated breeder, as this litter were local.

A poster on this site having bred a litter properly themselves, is looking fro a working prospect, but none of the working bred litters have tested parents, and they are considering getting a puppy and taking a chance, madness, but what can one do as long as people will buy badly bred dogs then they will be produced by someone.

If the bred clubs took on full responsibilty for their breed and took over the pedigree registration and made their registration the official register & confirmation of the authenticity of a breeds pedigree and ran breed championship shows that would end KCs say in anything to do with breeds, they could carry on as a dog hobby club.

Certainly for my main breed two thirds of all pups born (and registered -many more not registered) are from people who are not breed club members or indeed have any involvement in showing whatsoever. Those would just carry on as normal minus registration so it would never hit those it NEEDS to hit.

A buisness organisation running championship shows for dogs? .

Like I said before -the KC does NOT run shows, ONLY Crufts.

Hethspaw, My mistake, but you keep referring to Dobes as an example to all of us who you seem to think have no concern for our breeds. You say you talk of what you know yet my comment regarding stringent testing not occurring abroad applies to Dobes as well!

It is off topic and because of this and the fact you seem unwilling address the questions that do not fit your argument, I am locking this thread whilst I clean it up for the sake of the OP.
Jeff.

>Actually it does because nobody responsible will allow their stud dog to be used on a bitch of a different breed.

I disagree.  I suppose it depends what you mean by 'responsible'.  I know of several 'responsible' breeders of crossbreeds, where that means they health test the parents, ensure that the bitch has no more than 3 litters, breed not too closely, don't use dogs which have illnesses which could be genetic, are available for the mother, and ensure the puppies are well-socialised.  (And stud dog owners who only let their dog get used at stud, where the bitch owner seems likely to do all the above!).

To me, that is what a 'responsible' breeder is - whether crossbreed or pedigree.  It is not necessarily the territory of only pedigree breeders.  Don't forget that all breeds of dog started somewhere, that dog shows are a relatively recent phenomenon in the canine species, that pedigrees have only been available since the 1800s and that genetic variety is healthy... 

I suppose it depends what you mean by 'responsible'.  I know of several 'responsible' breeders of crossbreeds,

So you buy in a bitch puppy from a breeder who has worked for years towards producing a dog that is healthy, has correct conformation, good breed type and then you take this persons generations of work towards producing the best possible example of the breed they can and put it to a different breed Responsible, you must be having a laugh.

OK people, I think we are very far from helping the OP here so can we start a new thread on thisis you wish to continue.
Thanks,

Jeff.