Well hubby has poo pooed the miniture poodle but is more than happy with a miniture poodle but in my quest for knowledge on the web i have found ckcs crossed with miniture poodles. Now having ckcs and loving their nature could this be a prefect combination or do i steer clear of crosses??

What is wrong with either breeds ? I think look at that and really see if there is another proper breed that would fit the criteria as cross breeds have no guarantee of producing a combination of the two breeds , it is a lottery :-)

In a word yes!   You will be told by the "breeders" of such cross-breeds that they are healthier, that you get the best of both worlds, etc etc etc - but you have an equal chance of getting the worst of both worlds!

Good breeders of minature poodles and CKCS will carry out all the necessary health checkes required for their particular breeds.  Good breeders of these dogs do not cross-breed.  Breeders of "designer-crosses" do not do so - although they will assure you that their dogs are healthy.  So you could finish up with a cross-bred puppy with all the health failings of a badly-bred poodle
AND a badly-bred CKCS. 

Would you really want to put up with the heartbreak that could accompany such a cross?   I certainly wouldn't.

nothing wrong with either tbh, i love my cavies and i guess the shedding at times is the only down side and i love the poodles to, just wondered if cavapoos are a good combination ... admittedly being overtired and brain not functioning too well consider it was pot luck to what you get!

also realised i said agreed too a miniture when i meant toy !!!  See sleep deprivation and me do not match!

Nothing wrong with the cavapoo.  Much healthier than the cavalier.  Lovely dogs, the ones I've seen.  Do be careful where you get them from, as it is hard to find reputable breeders of cross-breeds who carry out health checks and socialise puppies well, though.

rabid now I am confused ? where would you find a reputable breeder of cavapoos who health test and surley you are still taking pot luck as to what you are getting. Why healthier than a cav from  health tested parents and from good breeders  or a minature poodle. If you arnt bothered about a specific breed a rescue would be a good choice

> i said agreed too a miniture when i meant toy

Well, you had me totally confused, that's for sure!  :-)  :-)

How can you say they are much healthier than a cavalier? Please could you clarify how or why you believe this?

I would steer clear of deliberate crosses like this - for all the reasons others have mentioned.  In my experience they simply do not deliver what you may be led to expect.  In part this is because they are rarely bred by good breeders, and also because so much of what is written is fallacy.

I'd also suggest that you choose a dog that both you and your husband want - mixing an unwanted breed with another you already have seems destined to disappoint at least one of you - if not both.

Try going back to the drawing board and analysing what you like the most about your current breed, and what you would change if you could.  There are so many breeds to choose from that I'm sure you'll find something to suit you both AND one which has a fighting chance of turning out exactly as you are led to believe or have a right to expect from the pictures and descriptions in the breed books :)  Good luck with your decision making

cross breeds have no guarantee of producing a combination of the two breeds , it is a lottery :-)

Exactly.  My two crossbreeds are actually nothing like EITHER parent in temperament. In looks they have nothing of the father whatsoever and a bit of the mother. Some of their littermates are totally different again, and nobody can even begin to guess what the cross is.

Also, BOTH Cavaliers AND Toy AND Miniature Poodles have had cases of Syringomyelia -see here from the UK's top expert:
http://www.veterinary-neurologist.co.uk/part2.htm
so it would be VITAL that BOTH parents were aged over 2.5 years of age and MRI scanned clear -and who on earth is going to spend thousands on that only to produce crossbreeds? Nobody! Whether it is as COMMON in the Poodles or not is neither here nor there as the person carrying out such a cross would not know if the Poodle was a carrier unless MRI scanned, and with it being common in Cavaliers -especially badly bred ones, which are the ones most likely to be used for crossbreeding - then the risk is most definitely there.

To say that such a cross would be healthier than a wellbred Cavalier from heart tested and MRI scanned parents and grandparents is ludicrous.

I groom a few, and they all shed heavily and don't look much like either breed.

I own a miniature poodle so am biased but i would definitley avoid any kind of cross. As others have said it is luck of the draw as to whether you get the best of both breeds or the worst and i for one woudnt take that risk. There are so many 'breeders' jumping on the bandwagon that unfortunatley the chances are you would end up with a less than great animal.These type of breeders will tell you exactly what you want to hear then have nothing more to do with you as soon as you have got the pup home. I have met people with 'oodle' dogs i.e labradoodles,cavapoos etc who thought they would end up with a dog that has a poodle coat that doesnt moult. After getting home they reallise the dog hasnt inherited the poodle coat and moults everywhere. If you have specific things you want in appearance or temperment you are much better off investing time and money in a pedigree. If you arent fussed and want a cross breed go to the RSPCA/Blue cross - they have plenty that need homes :-)

> Nothing wrong with the cavapoo.  Much healthier than the cavalier

Spoken with such authority!

I presume you mean to advise the OP that only if the Cavalier is MRI scanned clear of SM and the poodle is free of PRA of course.

Otherwise there is a huge risk that the offspring will be in agony AND blind!

If you find a 'Cavapoo' which comes from such health tested parents it will be as rare as hens teeth but a lovely little dog no doubt.

A quick search of the internet showed me that VERY FEW photos of cavapoos are of adults, the majority of photos are of pups.  There's a reason for that, the adults look nothing like as atttractive and extremely variable and would not induce the average person to buy :(

Why not have a look at a comprehensive dog book or website after deciding what you both most want in temperament and type of dog?

" A quick search of the internet showed me that VERY FEW photos of cavapoos are of adults, the majority of photos are of pups.  There's a reason for that, the adults look nothing like as atttractive and extremely variable and would not induce the average person to buy"

Indeed. Nothing further to add really, as I would just be repeating what others have already said. I love both breeds, but I have no desire to own a combination of the two, both are fab breeds in their own right :-)

Know a Cavachon, awful mouth and the worst tear staining I have ever seen  Nor does it do anything for me looks wise.  Oh and to me it's rather nutty!

> cross breeds have no guarantee of producing a combination of the two breeds , it is a lottery :-)

Spot on.  Most of mine are crossbreeds and only Linc has turned out as a fairly equal mix of the two.

Both my lab crosses take after the other side - both were bought with the owners thinking 'we don't want a full lab but a lab X should be labby enough and an easy dog' (if that makes sense); River is ALL collie in her head, very hard dog at times, and she's a 50/50 cross; whereas Raine is ALL malinois in her head, and she's 3/4 lab.  She looks a bit labby but that's where the similarity ends!  It's also why she's here, really - totally the opposite of what the owners thought they would end up with.

This is (the whole thread) such a snobby response to someone who is considering getting a cross-breed.  No, of course they are nothing like either breed in temperament or appearance - if they were, wouldn't you just get the pedigree - why would a cross-breed have become so popular? 

Cross-breeds are simply unregistered breeds of dog.  If you get a first-generation cross, you at least know what is behind it - if both parents are KC registered.  If you are getting an n-th generation cross, you really don't know how close the breeding has been - and many breeders will line-breed closely in subsequent generations, in an attempt to fix what they've produced in the first cross.

Yes, they do show a lower incidence of health issues than either pedigree breeds, because there is less of a chance of recessive genes occurring in both paternal and maternal lines.  If you out-cross to the degree of using 2 different breeds, it is unlikely that recessives will occur on both maternal and paternal lines.  Of course, if there are health issues *in common* for both breeds (for eg, both labradors and poodles can have hip dysplacia), then the chances of producing offspring with hip dysplacia is just as great as if you use untested stock from one breed. So yes, as I said above, both should be health tested - and, yes again, there are breeders of cross-breeds who do use health-tested stock.  (Having just helped someone find a labradoodle puppy from such a source.)

I've had several cavachons through my classes and they have been lovely, fun-loving, high-energy and affectionate little dogs.  Yes, they might be 'rather nutty', in your opinion, but no more nutty than a pedigree working spaniel is.  Just as any breed has its characteristics, so do cross-breeds.  These characteristics are combinations of both parents, but when they are 1st generation crosses, they are more predictable than later n-th generation crosses are.  I also know lots of pedigrees with 'awful mouths'.  In fact, some of them have been deliberately bred to have 'awful mouths', but let's not go there.

Cross-breeds should not be worth thousands of pounds or capitalised on for the sake of money.  But they are also not 'worthless':  The cost of something (anything in the market - this is basic economics) is determined by the buyer and what the buyer is prepared to pay for it.  People on here can rant away, but if someone can sell a litter of crossbreeds for £2000 each, then that is what they are 'worth' - the market determines that.  The money, though, is irrelevant, because any breed or x-breed will cost more over its life than whatever it cost to purchase in the first place.  Oh, it's irrelevant, of course, unless you are a breeder of pedigree dogs, who purports to be superior and untouchably ethical and above all criticism... In which case you may well not like crossbreeds, because they are probably taking up homes where your own pedigree dogs may well have gone to, had crossbreeds been less popular.

To the OP:  Being called 'Champdogs', this is a site for the pedigree dog enthusiast and most people show their dogs.  Most people tend to look down on crossbreeds as at worst being unethical and at best being ill-advised.  If you want to know more about them, it's best to go and meet some - as with all dogs - and to talk to others who own them.  There are also other online forums which are more receptive to the idea of a crossbreed and won't bandy about misinformation so readily.

A very comprehensive post. I certainly do not "look down" on cross-breeds and I am not alone - I do however question the ethics of some who breed them in the same way I question the ethics of some who breed pedigree dogs.
I would however like to add that I am unsure of your final statement, I am not convinced that MOST people on here show their dogs - happy to be PROVED wrong.
Jeff.

>Cross-breeds are simply unregistered breeds of dog.

No, crossbreeds are a combination of two recognised breeds, whether registered or not.

>I've had several cavachons through my classes and they have been lovely, fun-loving, high-energy and affectionate little dogs.

The OP is asking about cavalier/poodle crosses, not cavalier/bichon crosses ...

No it's not snobby. A Cavachon is a mix of two toy breeds not a working gundog so why bring that scenario into the equation? What I find snobby is people who don't like Poodles(not aimed at the poster just a general comment) because of the way they r clipped. They don't have to be clipped in that manner and are a great breed. I'm not against crossbreeds just ones at extortionate prices with daft names.

er no, crossbreeds are simply that - a combination of two breeds, whether recognised by the KC or not.  There are plenty of breeds which aren't recognised.  A 'breed' means that the pups are all similar to their parents, that they comply with a set of standards of looks and/or working ethos.  If you mate two cross breeds you'll get a mongrel!  All the designer labeled dogs are first generation crosses... cross them with each other and you end up with very strange dogs.  It's most unlikely that a new breed will be created.

Few people are snobs about breeds, although my mother was, when I took Pepsi home she looked at me with total disgust and said 'well! I never thought you'd have one of THOSE types of dogs!!!'  It took me a few seconds to register... oh! a mongrel!  Well, no regrets over taking on one of those types of dogs :-)

The hybrid vigour myth is simply that a myth, cross breed dogs are no more healthy than well bred pedigree breeds and many are less healthy - lots have HD, a three way cross that was advertised as 'ideal agility dogs with hybrid vigour' - at least one of the pups was found to have juvenile PRA when they went for their eye exam.... etc etc etc

>crossbreeds are simply that - a combination of two breeds, whether recognised by the KC or not.

I was careful not to say 'KC-recognised breeds', but just 'recognised breeds'. ;-)

> Oh, it's irrelevant, of course, unless you are a breeder of pedigree dogs, who purports to be superior and untouchably ethical and above all criticism... In which case you may well not like crossbreeds, because they are probably taking up homes where your own pedigree dogs may well have gone to, had crossbreeds been less popular.<br />

I think this pretty much sums up where you are coming from Rabid.
No doubt many pedigree dog breeders like me are wringing their hands in anguish at all the sales we are missing .... :-)

Just out of interest may I suggest you ask the owners of the  "several cavachons through my classes and they have been lovely, fun-loving, high-energy and affectionate little dogs" if either parent has had and MRI scan. Shame if  these potentially late onset conditions rob these little dogs of  their fun loving life.

I LOVE cross breeds and I LOVE mongrels. In "olden days" :-) they were always accidental--some happy accidents, some not, but some of these have been among the best dogs I have known.
What I HATE is the current trend for designer crosses with silly names. I can't see any reason to do this other than to cash in on the current fashion with the public to pay huge prices for these dogs, often having swallowed the guff about hybrid vigour. Hybrid vigour is not a complete myth, but it certainly won't be present in two pedigree/pure bred dogs who have not had all the relevant health tests for their breed. Simply crossing with another breed does not make the health problems disappear! and, as has already been said, it is perfectly possible to inherit health problems from both parents-- the worst of both. Also, some of these crosses are between breeds with completely different dispositions creating a clash that leaves a difficult or tricky dog as a result.
However, my main problem with the people breeding these designer dogs is, because the puppies cannot be registered with the kennel club anyway, the "breeder" does not have to abide by their welfare rules for the breeding bitch, and can breed back to back litters for as many years as she is able. Thus puppy farmers can breed the maximum amount of puppies from a bitch, registering them with the KC, and then move on to crossing her with another breed for as long as they like-- and probably charging more for the cross breeds than the pure breds. I really wish people would stop being so gullible and lining the pockets of these unscrupulous "breeders". The rescue centres are full of dogs--if you don't want a particular breed go there.   

There are some great little cross breed dogs out there, I think most of us have had one in the past and some even current.

The problem is today good dog breeders know that breeding willy nilly is just not the way to go, that health tests and careful line choosing, must be done prior to breeding to give the best quality, temperament and health we possibly can, even then it can go wrong, but at least we are doing everything we can to prevent it. :-)

There is a price to pay for a reputable breeder doing these things, it costs, when people cross breeds but still charge the same money and more than often even more of course you are all being scammed. Not only do you not know what your dog will look like, what temperament it may have, health issues and generally what is in either line it is a complete gamble.

Which is why going back 15yrs and beyond, a cross breed was given away or charged very little for because it always is a gamble, many may well be great little dogs in saying that, but the price reflected on that gamble.

My mother has always had pedigrees and still does, but whilst in Devon she was tempted by a Cocker/Westie cross (too much ribena me thinks :-D) she is a great dog, love her to bits, but she looks like neither breed is def more terrier than anything else in character and unfortunately is the only dog to have a health issue from 3yrs onwards her eyes have deteriorated, so in my limited experience, the only cross breed in the whole family is the one with the health issue. :-(

I would find a good breeder or either CKCS or poodle at least you know what your getting. :-)

Sorry Rabid but you do seem to be barking up the wrong tree - most people here are NOT looking down on crossbreeds - I own three, I would hardly look down on them... but much of what you say is simply not true.

You have found ONE breeder of labradoodles (surely the most numerous of the designer crossbreeds) who health tests both parents, well done - now how many 'cavapoo' breeders can you find who are breeding from MRI tested Cavs? Given the cost of MRI testing, I would happily bet my house that its none.

Furthermore, no one to my knowledge is breeding any of these with any real, serious efforts to create a new breed - there are one or two that have had a stab at it and almost uniformly, all have failed generally due to politics.

There is absolutely no comparison between the breeding of working dogs from parents with proven ability, or even the creation of our existing pedigree breeds, and the designer crossbreed production, none at all.

Recommending that someone get a cavalier x poodle because you THINK it will definitely be healthier is just silly - you don't know that, you can't know that,  you are guessing, as is the breeder, and where these crossbreeds are concerned for the vast majority, it isn't even an educated guess!

Tagging on the end to agree with the majority - in theory nothing wrong with a Cav / Bichon cross from health tested stock, but you'd be pretty lucky to find one!

I thought the OP was considering a cav/ poodle? Where did the Bichon come into it?

Aargh sorry meant Cav / Poodle, that'll teach me to type on iPhone!

There is a lady round here with a Cav X Poodle, seems like a nice young dog, but not the looks I'd choose personally. I really don't know her well enough to ask where she got him and/or if the parents were health tested. And I guess that's how the uneducated remain uneducated... the deed is done; no-one wants to be given bad news after the event; and even if I was the most tactful person on earth, it's hardly going to get me a good response if I asked. Maybe that's how the breeders of these crosses get away with it.

There are a few Labradoodles around, and I even met a Pug x Cavalier in the local pet shop not long ago.

OT I know but I heard a dog described the other day as a Cocker Doodle Poo - I'm fairly sure it was tongue in cheek otherwise the mind boggles

... a Cocker Spaniel, a Labradoodle, a Poodle and a      ...chicken!!

>Cocker Doodle Poo

ROFLMAO!!   :-)  :-)  :-)

Don't know if it is just me but I have no problem with cross breeds or mongrels providing they are bred for some good purpose other than making the breeder a quick buck, in fact, much the same applies to pure breeds as well.

All I ask is that the breeder -
makes sure the dam and sire are of good conformation
makes sure the dam and sire are of good temperament
makes sure that any available health tests are carried out
makes sure the results of those tests are satisfactory
makes sure that the predecessors have satisfactory tests
makes sure they have homes for the resulting pups
makes sure these homes are satisfactory
makes sure they have the time to do the job properly
makes sure they have the knowledge to do the job properly
makes sure they have an ethical reason for breeding

If a breeder does the above then the resulting pup be it cross breed, mongrel or pure breed does not concern me - now remind me, given that everything else meets my criteria, just what is the ethical reason for breeding a Cavapoo?

Jackie, you forgot: makes sure that the breeder offers lifetime support to every new owner

Just tagging on to the end here. There was a dog at training club last night that I couldn't help but wonder if it had turned out the way the owner expected. I can only assume it was Poodle x Bassett, as it had a Poodle face, Poodle coat, clipped like a Poodle, but had a very long body with very short bow legs! It looked absolutely ridiculous.

Definitely NO issue with cross breeds here, however, i do object to people paying 4 figure sums and giving them a catchy "name". If i want a cross breed i'll go to the local pound.

"What I find snobby is people who don't like Poodles(not aimed at the poster just a general comment) because of the way they r clipped. They don't have to be clipped in that manner and are a great breed. I'm not against crossbreeds just ones at extortionate prices with daft names."

Totally agree on both counts.

"There are some great little cross breed dogs out there, I think most of us have had one in the past and some even current."

I grew up with a Standard Schnauzer X Labrador, she was the sweetest dog ever, but sadly had to be pts at the age of 8 due to liver cancer (so much for "hybrid vigour"). The owner of the stables where my sister kept her horse owned the Schnauzer and  her neighbour owned the black lab sire. It was of course an accidental mating!!!! Pups were free to a good home (Given the circumstances this was probably a normal thing to do in those days). I think we were very lucky that she was such a well behaved and fabulous family pet, because knowing what I know about breeds today, I don't think it is a good mix at all!

I do realise what typed of forum this is as prior to children i spend lots of time on here researching things for my pedigree ckcs which are loving healthy girls but in honesty or rather niavity (sorry spelling) thought i would find out some more here and the thought never crossed my mind about other forums.

My intial question was one as i have no experience with crosses and wondered what they are like reason being i had seen some needing rehoming and thought of that as an alternative to a poodle.

I love both breeds and will never be without a CKCS but i have also loved poodles and this dog will be my choice and MY dog opposed to the family dog (haha you say) and hubby is happy either way.

This forum is a font of knowledge and the owners that replied to my poodle question a few months ago gave fantastic advice so this is why i ask here. :(

I love the show cuts but if i go down the pddole route wont be doing that. One of my CKCS is clipped twice a year as her coat is so uncav like and unmaganeable (i think in hindsight its bad breading)

>"What I find snobby is people who don't like Poodles(not aimed at the poster just a general comment) because of the way they r clipped. They don't have to be clipped in that manner and are a great breed.

Which is why it always gave me great satisfaction when I did obedience and tracking with my Toy Poodle in full show coat.
The BC owners soon stopped their bitching about lap dogs!  :-)  :-)  :-)

> could this be a prefect combination or do i steer clear of crosses??

Nice to hear back from you Mollymoto. In reference to your original post i think what many have tried to say is there is no such thing as a 'perfect combination' lol which is why its better to be looking at one breed rather than a cross as you have far more idea what a dog will turn out like if you have a full history and know about the breed. Thats not people being snobby,its people being honest.  As i said, worst case scenario is you end up with the worst of both breeds,not the best features so it something many of us would steer away from. In times gone by a crossbreed was an accident where as now you pay more for a crossbreed simply because it has become fashionable and has a funky name which is why so many people have jumped on the bandwagon, called themselves breeders and are simply in it for the money.

Of course if we are talking about an older rescue crossbreed you have some idea of what your getting, though character-wise you won't know it's true character until it has been with you a few weeks, but the rescue should have a reasonably good idea of basic temperament.

I think the only real solution is for hubby to get me the ruby ckcs i always wanted AND the apricot poodle i want too :) That would make me  very happy :) :) Although think it will be cavapooed lol

Thank you all for the advice

I think getting one of each sounds like a much more sensible plan ;-)

With a few months between them!

I think getting one of each sounds like a much more sensible plan

....but not at the same time :-)

I'm with you there Molly

Why have one dog when you can have 2 and live the dream :-D

I've always liked the Ruby Cavalier beautiful little dog :)