Ah yes HG I see what you mean, and yes I didnt red your message the way you meant it :)
unfortunatly at one point he was considered a danger and the police had a note on file to respond if a call came through with his name on it!!! It is me not telling everything about the case which would mean it would end up war and peace!!!
To everyone, I am only talking about the one person I know or knew well with a mental illness, and as I said my posts are my honest opinion on what I know from experience of one person and one person who was a threat alone.
Lea :)

Ok, lets add another possibility here.  Drugs. 

They were on the bus, for a great deal of time (at least 4 hours) and this guy was sitting up front of the bus.  They stopped for a smoke/coffee break, and then went on their journey.  When the killer got back on the bus, he moved to sit beside this man who he killed.  A half hour (ish) being on the bus, thats when the attack happened. 

Could it be, that this person did drugs while at the rest point?  And committed the crime while high on something???? 

Surely, if there were drugs involved (which is what a lot of people are speculating, but no real proof, as reports havent released anything about it, but they havent released much in the way of the crime) then this isnt a mental illness issue. 

But I am only speculating, like a lot of other Canadians are.  We dont know much, about what happened.  Even things that have been released to the press, have changed day to day.  (ie first it was a 19 year old man who was killed, and then its 22 year old Tim Mclean.)

Again though, thoughts and prayers go out to the family and friends of Tim Mclean.  My sympathies are not towards the man who killed him.  Mental Illness or not.  A murderer should not walk free. 

> Surely, if there were drugs involved (which is what a lot of people are speculating, but no real proof, as reports havent released anything about it, but they havent released much in the way of the crime) then this isnt a mental illness issue. 

Of course, and you would hope the investigation will reveal anything such as that if it were the case but that does not change the principle, in my mind, that you do not punish the insane even if it becomes necessary to secure them for public safety.

You cant always believe the media either.  I just watched a video on one link posted by dollface, and it started to talk about mental illness and that murderers have a high diagnosis of mental illness, and then he started to say the word BUT, the media phased that out.  I guess it didnt help their story, if the expert was going to say something different about this person.

And in Canada, just to let people realize, all he has to do, if found mentally insane (unless he is also found a dangerous offender) all he has to do is convince 3 doctors that he is sane again.  And it must be reviewed every six months.  So this guy, could get out in 6 MONTHS.  That would not be fair. 

There is also disturbing police scanner tapes on the site dollface provided, and if you listen to it, you will see how savage this killing was.  I mean, we all know a beheading is horrific, but its much much more than that.  Do you want a man who is capable of that walking your streets? 

If he is found mentally insane, once he does manage to get out, he isnt actually convicted of any crime.  That means he can go anywhere, anytime.  There would be NO record of what he did anywhere in the system.  Scary. 

ETA I am not attacking anyones beliefs about the mentally insane, or how to deal with such people.  But, only stating my opinion.  Part of my hopes this guy isnt insane, so he can sit in jail, but if he is insane, then he does deserve the help he needs. 

> That would not be fair. 

I doubt very much that someone capable of acting in this way would every be considered for release but if there was a way of curing someone so completely and without fear of relapse then I don't see where the question of fairness comes into it.  If you are insane at the time, you have not committed a crime.

> Do you want a man who is capable of that walking your streets? 
> If he is found mentally insane, once he does manage to get out, he isnt actually convicted of any crime.  That means he can go anywhere, anytime.  There would be NO record of what he did anywhere in the system.  Scary. 

I don't disagree with you about how important it is that we manage people that may be a danger to the public very carefully but I just don't believe there should be any element of punishment or retribution in the way we deal with them.

It was the fact that when the people went back to help the victim it was only then he was cutting the head off so he was actully staying with the dead person to mutilate the body, deffo seems he was unhinged and a waiting timebomb, who knows like so many others he may of tried to get help before but been called something like a 'hypocondreact' (excuse spelling) and not helped and then he exploded.
Im not excusing the behaviour of these people what so ever but so many people go to the police asking for help or to hospitals and they are turned away, if we had more time for people
(meaning doctors and nurses not being so overstretched etc) maybe these psychos wouldnt keep appearing as they would be seen and stopped.

So scary isnt it that you dont know who your sitting next too on a bus or what ever, Im always in guard in towns and public transport, comes from growing up in the rougher part of town and needing to learn young to be aware and look after yourself!

Either way sane or insane this man committed the ubelieveable (something you would see in a horror film) and he should be punished for his actions- like come on dogs/animals don't even get off easily they are killed no explanation there, so really why should he be any different and he's worse then an animal! An eye for an eye what he did words cannot even explain :( now the parents have to live with knowing the pain their son went through and never to see him again cause this man took someone elses life into his own hands and took it away so with that said why does he even have the right to live? As far as Iam concerned he has no rights he gave them up the day he decided to take someone elses life- no one gave him the right to play god.

See where your coming from Dollface but wonder if you may be a little less harsh if it was your own family member (father, brother) who had committed the crime and was possibly mentally ill, but I do agree with what you say if the murder happened in cold blood and there wa nothing wrong with the person in terms of what were talking about, but until thats been established Im not gonna place blame as if you are mentally ill things are different, not much but some.

Speaking as someone who has had a family member sectioned before I am on the fence a little, but do hope that if the man is found guilty and not deemed mentally ill before the accident I hope he gets all that he deserves and is put away for life for doing such a horrific crime.

> so really why should he be any different

Because if insane he is not responsible for his actions.  What do you think insanity is?

> See where your coming from Dollface but wonder if you may be a little less harsh if it was your own family member (father, brother) who had committed the crime and was possibly mentally ill,

I would take the same view I have taken all along unfortunately :-(

I could never forgive someone who had committed such an EVIL crime.

People have assumed that he is insane because of the crime he has committed, there are lots of people who commit very evil crimes just because they are evil. I pray that the family of the victim never read threads defending the accused whether insane or not :-(

>I pray that the family of the victim never read threads defending the accused whether insane or not

I feel for the family of the perpetrator too - whatever happens they've lost their innocent baby whose future they planned so very differently - the child the reared and whom they loved. To read that total strangers have judged him without ever meeting him, and think he should rot in jail must be adding salt to the wounds.

> I feel for the family of the perpetrator too - whatever happens they've lost their innocent baby whose future they planned so very differently - the child the reared and whom they loved. To read that total strangers think he should rot in jail must be adding salt to the wounds.

I am sure they must feel very upset....probably most upset at what he did :-(

Unfortunately they will probably take the brunt of peoples anger at what has happened (which i don't condone!) as this is what normally happens to the families of murderers so of course I feel very sorry for them too.

I feel for the family of the perpetrator too - whatever happens they've lost their innocent baby whose future they planned so very differently - the child the reared and whom they loved. To read that total strangers have judged him without ever meeting him, and think he should rot in jail must be adding salt to the wounds

Exactly JG, no one is condoning the actions of this man, but you also cant judge so harshly when you dont know the facts either and 2 families have been severley affected by this not just one, the witnesses could have missed something or the bloke could have antagonised him, who knows, People are sometimes caught in the cross fire of mental illness and the way you are so flipant about the state of his mind is questionable, same as we can not claim he was ill of mind, you can not claim that he wasnt.

Forgiveness is something that comes with time, and these people will move on much quicker if they DO forgive, if they took your view Dollface they would be bitter and eventually be consumed by their anger, thats surely not a way to go about it?

> People have assumed that he is insane because of the crime he has committed,

I would say they are suspecting he is, certainly that is my position, and of course if he is found to be sane punishment should be handed out.

> Forgiveness is something that comes with time, and these people will move on much quicker if they DO forgive, if they took your view Dollface they would be bitter and eventually be consumed by their anger, thats surely not a way to go about it?

There are very few people who can forgive someone who has committed such a brutal crime I wouldn't say that because they always feel angry about it they will become consumed with it, most people just learn to direct their anger into something positive. look at the woman who's husband was killed outside their house by a group of yobs, she has not forgiven them but has looked at ways she can prevent more deaths in the same way.

> the witnesses could have missed something or the bloke could have antagonised him, who knows, People are sometimes caught in the cross fire of mental illness and the way you are so flipant about the state of his mind is questionable, same as we can not claim he was ill of mind, you can not claim that he wasnt.
>

Of course no-one yet knows what exactly happened as we are just reading snippets of the news. no-one deserves to be murdered even if they have antagonised someone though.

I can see what you are saying about his state of mind but none of us know whether he was in a sane mind or not, at the moment we are speculating. Dollface has just mentioned that if he was in a sane state of mind then he deserves to be punished and I don't think anyone would disagree with that?

>the way you are so flipant about the state of his mind is questionable

Eh? Where have I been flippant?

> Eh? Where have I been flippant?

I don't think Rach was directing that at you, I think it was directed at Me and Dollface ;-)

> Dollface has just mentioned that if he was in a sane state of mind then he deserves to be punished and I don't think anyone would disagree with that?

No, that has been agreed at several points all through the thread, unfortunately this point

>Either way sane or insane this man committed the ubelieveable (something you would see in a horror film) and he should be punished for his actions

from the same post remains a sticking point!

That wasnt directed at you JG or Angels it was mentioned to Dollface :)

Dollface has just mentioned that if he was in a sane state of mind then he deserves to be punished and I don't think anyone would disagree with that?

No one would ever disagree with that, so true.
Maybe its cause I have a brother who is mentally ill and been admitted against his will that I have a more open view as I have been in these places and spoke to nurses about mental illness and found that more often then not the person who commits the crime has no recollation of the inceident what so ever as it was a mind blank and they act on passion and impulse, every one has the ability to be a murderer but in a way these people dont have a choice in what they do, until like my brother someone steps in says enough is enough and has them admitted.

I just hope that the families are able to move on and IF he was of sane mind he gets the punishment he deserves and if he was indeed mentally ill he gets the help he needs.

Tbh none of us know what happened and won't know until the trial, alot of what we are debating is pure specualtion at this point in time. I would rather wait and know the facts of the case. Everyone is different, some people can read a story and see it objectively and others read something like this and read it emotionally (me) that doesn't mean I'm wrong or right to feel this way its just the way I feel about people who take other peoples lives and that view i'm afraid will never change regardless of the state of mind of the perpetrator.

When I read something as horrendous as this, being a parent I automatically view it as the parent of the victim and I really really do feel for them no-one deserves to bury their own child :-(

I think you just summed it up in one Angels2, we shouldnt argue on a matter so sensitive and when we dont have the whole facts.

I have seen it from both emotional and non eemotional and neither way is better, this what happened is a terrible tragedy between 2 strangers, makes you realise how fragile human life is :( :(

Fortunately our law makers are objective :-)

> Fortunately our law makers are objective

Definately :-)

>we shouldnt argue on a matter so sensitive and when we dont have the whole facts.
>

I don't know about anyone else by I am not arguing about the facts of this case, they will be revealed in due course.  It is the ethics of what should happen to him if is insane that I feel I have any differences with other posters over.

I think Rach meant that we don't know whether he is insane or not so its probably a bit insensitive of us to be speculating about it :-)

I beleieve this has ended up a very interesting, none mud slinging debate about mental health issues, not necessarily about the Origional posts man on the bus, but how all of us percieve things in different ways, and how difficult it is getting a happy medium.
I for one am glad I dont have to make decisions about someones mental health issues!!! I have been on the reciving end of someone with mental health issues for the past 14 years, and unfortunatly will be until one of us dies, and seeing everyones different view points and opinions is very enlightening.
Lea :)

> What gives me my Humanity is my agreement with Isabel's above statement.
> To be disenfrachised from that would render me as the man in question........
>
> I commute daily on the London underground system, One of the most vocal and effective advocates of the ethos Isabel is trying to remind us of, Is an amazing young lady whose Husband was tragically pushed under a tube train causing fatal injury at the hands of another young man with Mental health issues. (Im not sure I can name her as I believe its against TOS)
> If she can and did find the serenity...to the extent even that she could be proactive rather than reactive... ( a much more fitting tribute to a wonderful life... to save lives rather than to take)
> Then I would hope I could too.
> I stand with you Isabel... lest I loose my humanity.

joining this very late but i couldn;t agree more.

> he's worse then an animal!

if he's ill? thats compassionate...

> An eye for an eye what he did words cannot even explain :-( now the parents have to live with knowing the pain their son went through and never to see him again cause this man took someone elses life into his own hands and took it away so with that said why does he even have the right to live?

and deny another family their son because of something he may not have been responsible for?

its funny that the courts of well trained lawyers, wise judges and expert witnesses haven't made up their minds about this yet but people who have no more info than a couple of news articles have already.

> As far as Iam concerned he has no rights he gave them up the day he decided to take someone elses life- no one gave him the right to play god.

and who gave that right to you or the penal system or anyone for that matter?

punnishments are regulated by the justice system that we agree to respect by acting as a participant in a given society. we therefore agree to conceed to that systems findings and if someone has a problem with those findings they should follow the appropriate channels in attempting to change the system.

first of all

> Either way sane or insane this man committed the ubelieveable (something you would see in a horror film)

we don;t know that, no evidence has been presented and exammined by the appropriate body yet.

secondly

> he should be punished for his actions- like come on dogs/animals don't even get off easily they are killed no explanation there, so really why should he be any different and he's worse then an animal!

again you don;t know that, you don;t know what caused this. if this man did do it and did so under the influence of a medical condition that he could not control why is it his fault? we don;t jkust arbitrarliy kill animals, many threads on this forum advocate a full vet exam if any difference in behaviour appears- this man, who may or may not have done anything, does not deserve the same?

> why does he even have the right to live?

because we don't have the right to take lives.

the witnesses could have missed something or the bloke could have antagonised him

BTW, Tim Mclean was asleep and listening to music when he was attacked.  He didnt antagonise his assalent in any way.  But even if he did, it doesnt give the right to take a life. 

> Either way sane or insane this man committed the ubelieveable (something you would see in a horror film)
we don;t know that, no evidence has been presented and exammined by the appropriate body yet.

The man removed someones head, and then ate part of the body.  I call that unbelievable, and something you would see in a horror film.  Not sure what second body has to examine that, or what more evidence has to be presented. 

> why does he even have the right to live?
because we don't have the right to take lives.

I agree with you there.  Thats why the death penalty was taken out.  I dont believe in killing someone (eye for an eye).  The only time I believe you have the right to take a life, is if you are protecting yourself from death, or if you are preventing someone else from getting killed. 

If he is insane, then he should get treatment.  My thing is the time he would need to spend in hospital.  And yes, people are going to judge people for their actions,that is human nature.  And its us, not the law makers that are going to convict/aquit him because he will be judged by a group of peers.  12 people now have to sit through a trial (unless either he is found insane, or he pleads out) and decide about what Canada is going to do.  Thank goodness, at this point, I am in Ontario and dont have to make such decisions.  That wouldnt be one I would like to make. 

> Not sure what second body has to examine that

A court of law perhaps rather than a press report.

> its funny that the courts of well trained lawyers, wise judges and expert witnesses haven't made up their minds about this yet but people who have no more info than a couple of news articles have already.
>

No one has made up their mind as to whether he did/didn't commit the crime or as to whether he is/isn't sane, most of the posts are people expressing their beliefs.

> if he's ill? thats compassionate...
>

Thats the point IF...none of us know yet, its all speculation at this point

> punnishments are regulated by the justice system that we agree to respect by acting as a participant in a given society. we therefore agree to conceed to that systems findings and if someone has a problem with those findings they should follow the appropriate channels in attempting to change the system.
>

No one has said anything about the legal system???? At this point we have no idea what will/won't happen at trial and as we are all law abiding citizens we will respect the decision that is made by the judge. People are merely stating what they feel, as you are in your post.

> because we don't have the right to take lives.

There is the statement we ALL agree on ;-)

> Not sure what second body has to examine that, or what more evidence has to be presented. 
>

well the eye witness testimony seems to be about someone else (though eye witnesses are notoriously unreliable). we cannot make judgements here, that is what the courts are for. we don't know for certain that he did it, we were not there.

totally agree

> we don't know for certain that he did it, we were not there.

I agree with you we won't know the real facts until it goes to trial, tbh I won't be following the story as it has made me sick to my stomach :-(

I will be as in a werd soert of way I am hoping the guy has a undiagnosed severe mental illness whih means he wasnt in a sane frame of mind to do what he did as am hopeing noone 'normal' would do anything ike this.
Lea.

i agree angels, of course we are all entitled to our opinions but dollface repeatedly used specific indicators to state that the man we are discussing should be punnished. given that no investigation that has been carried out has been publisised nor a court case undertaken then i think its a bit hasty to declare things like "an eye for an eye" (though personally i disagree with that all the time) and that he should be punnished for taking someones child away.

even then an open mind is useful- look at the jill dando (sp?) thing- her supposed killer has just been found innocent (though that guys is very screwy). (for the canadians amoung us who might not be familiar with this jill dando was a famous television presenter in the uk who was murdered on her door step about 8 or 9 years ago.)

innocent till proven guilty is my point, we know absolutely nothing about the ins and outs of the case as yet

> No one has said anything about the legal system????

sorry i was refering to the reference made about again "an eye for an eye" or he should be rotting in prison not in hospital- i just feel that if people feel that strongly about these things they should do something to change it, i.e. campaigning

But the stories are all the same, from the eye witnesses. 

Also, my sisters friend was on the bus.  My sister has told me a lot about it, since her friend has been talking to her about it.  Her friend just got back, and was out on vacation when she was riding on the bus.

well the eye witness testimony seems to be about someone else
?????  Dont understand what you mean here..........

there is clearly something wrong with him, though the place where mental illness ends and psychosis starts is a fuzzy line. whether he was socialised to be like this, had a condition of some kind whatever, he's clearly not 'normal'

> dollface repeatedly used specific indicators to state that the man we are discussing should be punnished

She only said this working on the assumption that he is found guilty, of course she wouldn't be asking for punishment to be carried out on someone who didn't commit the crime.

> i think its a bit hasty to declare things like "an eye for an eye"

I don't think its hasty to state your beliefs, some people agree with the death penalty some don't, we all have our reasons and no-one is right or wrong

> innocent till proven guilty is my point, we know absolutely nothing about the ins and outs of the case as yet

I agree, too much speculation ends up like chinese whispers

> sorry i was refering to the reference made about again "an eye for an eye" or he should be rotting in prison not in hospital- i just feel that if people feel that strongly about these things they should do something to change it, i.e. campaigning

I said if he is found guilty and not insane then he should rot in prison, that is the way I feel about people who commit murder. I do campaign, always practice what I preach when it comes to very serious matters.

> Also, my sisters friend was on the bus.  My sister has told me a lot about it, since her friend has been talking to her about it.  Her friend just got back, and was out on vacation when she was riding on the bus.

I really feel for your sisters friend and the other poor people on the bus and hope they can find a way of moving on from this. Lets hope the perpetrator doesn't have the chance to wreck anymore lives :-(

someone over 200lbs? that guy certainly does not look that big...

i'm not suggesting that it wasnt; him, in all likelyhood it was, but we do not know, we're not certain so cannot pass judgement.

i don;t know how the justice system in canada works but if you were called to be a member of a jury for this case based on the info we have now would you feel confortable to convict?

i just think that its a bit premature to be declaring him an evil man or whatever

also hope your friends sis is ok, i can;t imagine how awful that must have been

> just think that its a bit premature to be declaring him an evil man or whatever

I think that we all meant the person who committed the crime as opposed to the individual accused as at this stage he is only the accused

> I do campaign, always practice what I preach when it comes to very serious matters.

i think apathy is one of the problems the world has today so good for you speaking out for what you believe

> I don't think its hasty to state your beliefs, some people agree with the death penalty some don't, we all have our reasons and no-one is right or wrong
>

i was refering to talking about it in specifics to this guy again.

i think we've all talked this out though. hopefully the law will find the truth and justice will be actioned.

it didn;t seem that way, it came across in a lot of those posts that people have decided it was this guy. which it probably was but its not for us to say yet.

i

> it didn;t seem that way, it came across in a lot of those posts that people have decided it was this guy. which it probably was but its not for us to say yet.
>

No it isn't for us to say, I have re-read the posts and can't see where people are saying this man is guilty. Most people are talking about if he is guilty then what punishment he should face in our opinion

Even if that was my family that commited this crime I would not want them around me or my family cause how could I really ever trust them after they did something like this? I couldn't and I wouldn't want to put my faimly in any danger incase they lost it again- so better off gone in my eye's. Thats my opinion on how I feel- cause really would you trust them being a father, brother what have you to be in your house not knowing if they would lose it all of a sudden? I know 2 people who are skitzo (sp) and they have their episodes but have not hurt anyone- Mind you they are not in my house nor around my children.

How many people can convince the judge, lawyer that they were not right at the time so they can get off more easily?

Plus he was sitting at the front of the bus then moved to this young mans seat and killed him- hmmm

Lets say this young man raped- killed one of his family members, ok I could see him going biserk but he wouldn't have to decapitate him especially on a bus in front of so many people and start eating him and carving his body up alot more.

I just look at the fact they really don't give a dog another chance and dogs only use their teeth where people can use weapons and have alot more thinking power compared to an animal- so in my eye's a human is alot more dangerious then an animal. You pretty much can read signs on a dog if you know how to read them- What signs are you gonna read on a human that they are about to attack?

1) This man moved seats to sit beside the young man who was asleep at the time listening to head phones minding his own business.
2) This man pulled out a huge hunting type knife (why did he even have that on a bus) and stabbed the young guy and decapitated him.
3) he went to the front of the bus showed the head then went back to continue mutilating the body and started eating him
4) he told his boss that he was going for an interview
5) did this in front of 36 people including children

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/08/01/stabbing-victim.html

http://winnipegsun.com/News/Manitoba/2008/08/06/6360616-sun.html

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hx-mB9K812hwZqPx4HhsRsgjT7YwD92BI6OO0

This is only my opinion and I know people feel differently- Iam not saying everyone should feel as I do :)

well i read them differently than you, the nature of posts rather than speech

HOW LOW CAN PETA GET!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/cbc/080806/canada/canada_peta_mclean

They are now comparing this attack on the greyhound bus, to the plight of animals!!!!!!  They also wanted the ad to run in the Newspaper where the young man was killed. 

Now, that is just sick!!!!

(the link is to an article about it, not to the video!)

Even if that was my family that commited this crime I would not want them around me or my family cause how could I really ever trust them after they did something like this?

Dolface I highlighted a bit of your sentence there cause made me think, are you saying that you wouldnt let the family round you as you think they are all killers because their son is?
You really think the whole family will one by one start cutting peoples heads off?
I seriously hope the family never ever ever hear such words from anyone, its terrible enough their son did this crime ill minded or not, but to accuse the family of being the same and able to do the same thing??
So So So wrong.... :( :( :(

I think she was talking about the fact that she wouldnt let the killer near her family, even if the person was in her family.  That she wouldnt trust someone, to be rehabilitated to the point of 100% total trust. 

If the killer was in my family, I wouldnt let them around my family either.  But I wouldnt exclude the mom and dad of said person.  They need support as well.