Warning graphic explanation

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/08/01/stabbing-victim.html

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2008/07/31/6316716-cp.html

http://edition.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/americas/07/31/canada.bus/?imw=Y&iref=mpstoryemail

I just don't understand some people- just goes to show you that really you are never safe and should at all times be aware of your suroundings. I feel so sorry for the people on that bus especially the children, what a horrific scene for them to witness that would be so devestating for them just can't help to wonder how that will effect their lives as they grow up. I truely think they should be taking better percautions when people enter a bus just like they do with flying and its sad to think that a young guy paid the ulitimate price- his life- because there isn't better percautions for people's safety :-(  This man what went through his head to do something like that- almost like he was possesed or something- I don't think he should even get a trail- like come on he obviosuly did it- stop animal testing and use people like that! Just my 2 cents. Animals don't kill for the fun of it and society says people are like animals when in reality animals do not do what this man did so even compare people like this to an animal just urks me.  

My thoughts and prayers go out to family and friends and the people all involved...

A horrible killing but it sounds like the murderer may have been unhinged.

I cannot comprehend what would drive a person to take someone elses life!

There is overcrowding in prisons and they are draining our money to allow them their "privilages"(sp)....when such an awful crime is committed they should bring back the death penalty

My thoughts and prayers are with the victims family

Thje poor poor man :( :(
Deffinatly sounds as if the guy had a mental illness of sometime. Unfortunatly that probably means he will end up with a spell in a mental hospital instead of rotting in prison!!!!
Sick man :( :(
Lea :)

Surely if he is mentally ill you would not want him to rot in prison.  That sounds like how we used to treat people back in bedlam! 

Sorry I meant he may have a spell in the mental hospital and released when they think he is ok again. But will he be cured or only ok while taking meds?? and if he doesnt take meds then he will be back to square one, and once released could they prove they have not taken meds and  take them back as I know in this country once released they have to be re sectioned if they appear to be a danger to themselves or others.
I am afraid that even if someone kills someone in a sick attack like that, and is deemed mentally ill, they should be incarserated for life either in prison or hospital. But I may be biased having someone tht used to be very close to me not being stable on meds after death threats, terroism threats,  but still rel;eased into care into the community :( :( so may have a biased view on these matters.
Lea :)

A true cure may be difficult and difficult to be sure of, I couldn't say because I know very little about psychiactric medicine but I did think if it is necessary to contain mentally ill people for life it has to be because they are a continuing danger and not for punishment as they are not responsible for their actions.  If there is such a thing as a cure then I think they must be released, again because it would be unethical to punish them.

The problem is what do you class as a cure???
I know the person close to me was supposedly ok to be realeased back into society but stopped taking his meds. Took them 7 years to realise that he wont take his meds, so on and off into sectioning until they decided they needed to administer meds everyday ( I told them that 9 years ago!!!)
So am very dubious as to what they think is safe!!!
I know people were sectioned for life that shouldnt have been!!! and ones that were sectioned but 'normal', and become institutionalised, but someone killing someone like this man has should have every i dotted and t crossed 100 times before released, and someone who has a mental illness, but if 'cured' should understand in his 'cured' sense why he is being kept in until they are 10,000% sure they will not do it again!!!
Lea :)

> but someone killing someone like this man has should have every i dotted and t crossed 100 times before released, and someone who has a mental illness, but if 'cured' should understand in his 'cured' sense why he is being kept in until they are 10,000% sure they will not do it again!!!
>

I agree.  I would imagine if he is ill and his illness led him to commit such a dreadfull thing that his supervision would need to be constant if not fully incarcerated but I don't believe in punishing such a person ie he should not suffer anything more than the necessary restrictions to keep everyone safe and he should have any comfort they are able to give him.

I agree Isabel, people used to be incareserated when no need, but due to patient rights people are released to soon as it is against human rights (I know there is another word)  unfortunatly I know that it doesnt happen and people are released too soon when they are not stble and are a danger to the public :( :( :(
Lea :)

I guess the balance will always be a tricky one, let alone when cost issues and all the rest of it comes into it.

Yep, the balance is the thing!!!
I have no qualms with people living a life during and after mental illness as long as they are not and never will be a danger to society again.
The problem now is, they air on the side of caution too much as they would rather release someone too late and cause a problem to other people than keep someone in too long and have a civil rights problem :( :(  I know it is a fine line, but from my experience the line is too far on the human rights of the person with the mental illness, not on the protection of everyone else.
Lea :)

Prayers and deepest sympathies go out to the family, and friends of Tim. 

It was such a horrific crime, and tbh, I didnt believe it at first.  It wasnt until I saw the story on Global News last Thursday, that I was like "OMG this is real!"

The people on the bus, how horrific!  To see a man be killed, for no apparent reason, right infront of them, as they could do nothing.  Prayers go out to them as well.

It makes me sick.  We all need to take better precautions while traveling.  They were saying on the news, that a Greyhound, you can sneak anything on because things arent checked.  And I take the Greyhound quite regularly, and can say, I havent even been asked if I had anything on me.  Things need to be done.  This was something that could be avoided, by taking better safety measures.  Now it is too late, for Tim and nothing that is put in place now will change that.  But it will help out the future. 

Again, prayers and deepest sympathies to those friends and family of Tim, and those on the bus who now have to live with what they saw.

> but I don't believe in punishing such a person ie he should not suffer anything more than the necessary restrictions to keep everyone safe and he should have any comfort they are able to give him.

I am sorry Isabel but I do not agree with you, illness or not we ALL have to be held accountable for our actions and his were beyond redemption!

I for one would hope he rotted in jail forever!!!!

> This was something that could be avoided, by taking better safety measures

I'm not sure about that at all. This was a tragic, horrific crime that could have happened anywhere. Bus drivers can't start strip searching people to make sure they're not carrying weapons. The perpetrator obviously had no thought for the consequences of his crime, and therefore could have done it in the street, a restaurant - anywhere.

Thankfully medicine and the law recognises that people can become so mentally ill that they are not responsible for their own actions.  I agree he may need to be incarcerated for the rest of his life for the reasons that Lea has given but to talk about rotting or punishment is barbaric. 

> Thankfully medicine and the law recognises that people can become so mentally ill that they are not responsible for their own actions.  I agree he may need to be incarcerated for the rest of his life for the reasons that Lea has given but to talk about rotting or punishment is barbaric.

I do appreciate what you are saying Isabel but would you feel this way if the victim had been your husband or brother or father?

This happened in Canada & the laws on murder are different to those in the UK. I would think it would be a very long time if ever that the killer was released.

> would you feel this way if the victim had been your husband or brother or father?

I can't imagine how I would feel and I would not blame anyone who had suffered for feeling differently to me but we have to base our laws on ethics not on raw feelings.  I'm sure there were times in history when these things were dealt with on a vengeful basis but I would not like to see the modern world moving back into that. 

> This happened in Canada & the laws on murder are different to those in the UK.

Yes, I realise that, although you would hope that they would recognise insanity.  It is rather disturbing to read that psychiactric assessment does not yet appear to have been instigated and I find the injuries this man appears to have suffered very disturbing. I appreciate they may have been self inflicted but you would rather think in this country he would have been on permanent watch at this point in time.

I believe that the world we live in today quite often resembles a horror film, things I would have only imagined would be in these such films are now happening in every day life. More and more people are attacked/murdered for no reason, even on our small island over the course of the last week there have been snippets of the news I have read on my homepage about people being attacked by gangs......when will this end?

I think that the UK are too easy on criminals in general and the system as it is is not working otherwise we would not be seeing the level of stabbingsetc that we have been seeing. I am by no means an expert and quite frankly would not want to know what goes on in these "peoples" minds but perhaps the soft approach just isn't working anymore. I am sure deep down we all want the same thing a safer world for our children to grow up in, how we get there I don't know :-(

They certainly should have sufficient deterent to make them reconsider committing crimes although I still think that punishment has to be civilised and always with a view to rehabilitation rather than revenge. 

Criminals are a different matter though and I really don't think that is what we are looking at here.

> They certainly should have sufficient deterent to make them reconsider committing crimes although I still think that punishment has to be civilised and always with a view to rehabilitation rather than revenge. 

Can you ever rehabilitate someone who has removed someone's head?

Why should he be entitled to his life when he has taken someone elses?

> Can you ever rehabilitate someone who has removed someone's head?

Like I said I am not that knowledgable about psychiatry but I believe quite severe conditions can be treated with medication.  As talked about with Lea earlier, I accept that it may be very difficult to ensure that person remained adequately medicated if released into the community so, considering what they have shown themselves capable of doing, they may well be regarded as needing very close supervision for ever more. 
I do think it could be possible that they could be rehabilitated in the sense that their sanity could be restored and maintained and as they were not sane when they committed the crime and are therefore not deserving of punishment I think they are entitled to have as good a life as can be achieved within that confinement.

I'm not sure about that at all. This was a tragic, horrific crime that could have happened anywhere. Bus drivers can't start strip searching people to make sure they're not carrying weapons. The perpetrator obviously had no thought for the consequences of his crime, and therefore could have done it in the street, a restaurant - anywhere

Oh I know that he would have done it anywhere, regardless of any safety precautions.  But, the greyhound has NOTHING.  They will let anyone on the bus, as long as they have the fare.  You go to an airport, and your luggage is screened, you are wanded, and then asked a lot of questions.  There is a higher regard for safety when you are up in the air, then there is if you are on a bus. 
I am not saying passengers should be strip searched - it is not only excessive, but a violation of ones rights.  But, I do think something should be set in place, to make bus rides a little bit safer.
As a grehound passenger, quite frequently, I know I wouldnt mind it if something was set in place.  I would rather be safer, and pay a little bit more to take the bus, then have the possibility of drugs, weapons, etc on the bus.  You never know these days, what people are up to. 

They have been reviewing the issue of security on public transport ever since the London Underground bombings here in the UK but the balance is always going to be a tricky one as security inevitably leads to costs and delays making day to day life very difficult for many people.

Would you rather have to be leaving your home a couple hours earlier, pay a bit more, and be a bit safer?????  Or would you rather be in the dark, and have something like this happen again?

How would it make it very difficult?  It takes but two seconds to swip a wand over you.  They do it at the airports, and even when you enter a government building.  It took about 10 minutes to swipe a wand over a class of 90 when we went to the courthouse for a class learning experience.  No one was upset. 

We don't really know if he is insane or just plain evil.....so many people "claim" insanity now as it is there ticket out of prison

If this man is insane, yes, put him in a hospital with medication. 
The judge has told him, that an examination of sanity would be done after he gets a lawyer.  He has the option to plead insanity.

But, sometimes the insanity defense is a load of rubbish.  Honeslty, one would think no sane person would take someones life, as the majority of people dont.  But some people just do.  There have been many killings of people, that the public thought the guy had to be insane.  Some of these people are just rush killers, people with no regard to human life.  The fact that no one thought he would do something like that, and that he is being quiet now, doesnt mean he is insane.  Look at Paul Bernardo, no one ever thought he would be a killer, and he assaulted and killed three teenage girls.  He is sitting in jail. 

If this man is insane, then he should be put into a hospital for treatment.  If not, then he should sit in prison for his life sentence (which is not really life, only 25 years).  This man took someones life.  Someone with a future, a good heart, will never get to live up to his dreams and goals.  Why should someone be sympathetic to a killers plight?  He deserves the punishment the court dishes out.  Whether thats to spend time in a hospital or prision, thats up to the courts. 

> Would you rather have to be leaving your home a couple hours earlier, pay a bit more, and be a bit safer????? 

In the UK public transport is used a great deal for commuting to work on a daily basis so a couple of hours is a big deal :-)

> We don't really know if he is insane or just plain evil.....so many people "claim" insanity now as it is there ticket out of prison

Indeed.  I make all my comments on the proviso that he is found insane but I have to say the act he committed to an apparent sleeping stranger does rather point that way to me.

> The judge has told him, that an examination of sanity would be done after he gets a lawyer.  He has the option to plead insanity.
>

This sounds rather a catch 22, although I presume the Canadian system will, eventually, just allocate legal assistance to someone who may be too insane to make a sensible decision regarding it.

He has the right to not have a lawyer at trial, he can represent himself.  But with a murder case, the courts usually err on the side of caution, and would just appoint a lawyer for him. 

But nothing in the reports, is saying that this man is actually insane.  There is no evidence, that has been released to justify this type of crime.  All it has said is that this man was calm while commiting the murder, and that he hasnt spoke at trial.  This doesnt mean he is insane. 

A pshyc evailuation will most likely be done, but they have to follow the rules and guidelines from teh courts.  They cant just say "This guy has to be insane, so we must do this this and this".  They have to go by what the rules are, and give him the chance to aid in his defense.  That means, giving him the chance to enter a plea, to obtain counsel, and all the other things that need to be done.

As to the "couple hours would be a big deal". yes, I can understand it would be frustrating, but I for one would rather be a bit safer, than not be.  A wand doesnt take to long, and it would be done in a matter of minutes, in a line up.  This isnt a public bus, that picks up many passengers like a transit bus within the city.  It has designated stops, in different cities, and most people are there early enough to get wanded.  Its not like the bus is stopping every block or two, like a regular inner city transit bus. 

> But nothing in the reports, is saying that this man is actually insane

No, it's just my personal feeling but I am pretty sure in the UK it would be something they would be looking to exclude before assertaining whether he is fit to make decision about his defence rather than the other way round.

Evil or insane...........he should never be allowed free again, who on this earth would want to take responsibility for that!

Karen :(

I would not disagree with that, Karen, it would be dreadful risk to take.

Here's a lil bit more: http://www.canada.com/reginaleaderpost/news/story.html?id=d0cebef1-8fae-4799-a4b3-ec869065b22a

To undergo a psychiatric evaluation to determine whether he is fit to stand trial, come on and second degree murder- whatever should be first degree, what the heck did he have such a big hunting knife on the bus for in the first place- As far as Iam concerned he planned to do something and he also switched seats so he could sit next to this young man- something planned there Whats wrong with the justice system- really, what rights should he have, he's guilty of this crime with out a doubt! I guess he has not spoken a word since he killed this young man.

http://beyond90seconds.com/2008/08/01/video-dramatic-account-of-bus-passengers-beheading-picture-of-victim/

He originaly asked for time off to go to an interview....

> what the heck did he have such a big hunting knife on the bus for in the first place

Because he's mad?

>Whats wrong with the justice system- really, what rights should he have?

The rights to be assessed as to his sanity and a fair trial based on the findings I would say.

What gives me my Humanity is my agreement with Isabel's above statement.
To be disenfrachised from that would render me as the man in question........

I commute daily on the London underground system, One of the most vocal and effective advocates of the ethos Isabel is trying to remind us of, Is an amazing young lady whose Husband was tragically pushed under a tube train causing fatal injury at the hands of another young man with Mental health issues. (Im not sure I can name her as I believe its against TOS)
If she can and did find the serenity...to the extent even that she could be proactive rather than reactive... ( a much more fitting tribute to a wonderful life... to save lives rather than to take)
Then I would hope I could too.
I stand with you Isabel... lest I loose my humanity.

Aha...thanks for the explanation HG. I will be with you, and may I always be able to feel the same.
Karen

> The rights to be assessed as to his sanity and a fair trial based on the findings I would say.

I agree with that statement.......as long as they have the right man and he isn't insane (although i'm sure he'll plead insanity anyway) then if they find him guilty may he then rot in prison!

Have you thought of it in another way.
I know the  man I spoke of earlier that has mental illness was the most loving kind compasionate man going, and loved his family.
He developed (slowely over the years) uncontrolled Paranoid schitzophrenia culmunating in him trying to take his own life 9 years ago.
Now, some of the things he has done over the years I know for a fact werent him, but the persona his mind thought he was (if thats the right way of explaining it)
I also know that if he did anything so bad that a 'sane' person would be locked up for life, He would feel he should be IF he was mentally able to make that choice (remeber I did know him when he was 'normal')
So the people that are mentally ill, do you really think if they were 'cured' (and to get to the point they kill and behead an innocent man I cant see them ever being 'cured' even by medication but that is only my personal view) they would WANT to be let out again?? 1. Because they would be living in fear from others
2. because they would be living in fear from themselves and what they were capable of with the illness.
I know the man I know would not be able to cope wth what he has done, and also if he ever did anything like the man in Canada he woul not be able to live with himself if he was Sane.
Disclaimer This is all my honest opinion from knowing and having aot of dealings with only one severe paranoid schitzophrenic.
Lea :)

And what if they can treat him and cure him?

LMAO at JG, see above!!!! I think we posted at the same time!!!!
think I answered your question before you asked it!!!
Lea :)

Lol! He might even have something as 'simple' as a brain tumour, that, if removed, would make him completely 'normal' again. If he does have some condition like that which has affected the functioning of his brain, is he so evil?

Just thinking out loud and trying not to be too judgmental.

Totally see where you where coming from Lea, but Im thinking its perhaps not a very fair hypothetical comparison...
Public opinion is often very mistaken The Majority of those that suffer Mental health conditions are very unlikely to be a threat to others, more to themselves and much more to be victims.

Well you have said something there that I hadnt thought of. Its what we constantly say about dogs that is it neurological :)
I do know of a firefighter that had an accident and it affected his brain so he was weelchair bound and ended up uncontolled violence. Would lash out at his carers all the time. So it is possible for that to hapen, but again I ask a different ponderig, If you knew, even through a brain tumour, that you had slaughtered someone even with the excuse of brain tumour or mental illness, would you want to live!!! I am sure I wouldnt be able to live with myself!!! and would rather them bring back the death penalty on me!!!! But thats only what I feel now not in that position!!!
Lea :)

> And what if they can treat him and cure him?

Even if he is insane then he still committed that crime....if not him then who is responsible for that mans death?

We have to remember that a family lost their son because of this man....they have lost someone who can never be replaced and not only are they having to cope with the grief of this loss but they also know that he would have suffered an immense amount of pain!

There is no excuse for taking someone else's life!

>Totally see where you where coming from Lea, but Im thinking its perhaps not a very fair hypothetical comparison...

Public opinion is often very mistaken The Majority of those that suffer Mental health conditions are very unlikely to be a threat to others, more to themselves and much more to be victims.

Yes I am talking about this in the view that the man that killed on the bus May have been mentaly ill, so doing extreme comparisons to show this case.
I have no doubt that the majority of mental health people are fine in the communityan if they do misdameaners when il they can be forgiven , unfortunatly there are a few that are not, and do cause problems.
Believe me I have more sympathy for the vagrant under the bridge knowing what I know now, But I also have no fath in the mental health system, not in the people that help the mentally ill people as they are great, but their hands are tied due to policy!!!!
With this discussion we are not talking solely about mentl health issues, but about SEVERE mental heath issues that lead people to kill. If we were on about less severe mental illness in another thread I would have different views, but also still the same experince LOL
Lea:) :)

No Lea, sorry thats my fault! perhaps I didnt make myself more clear..
All I was meaning was its slightly unfair to speculate on what another person with a Mental Health disorder Might feel.or do... I just felt that that was perpetuating the myth of folk like this being *considered* a danger to others, your friend hasnt been, and what I was trying to highlight, is very unlikely to. (does that make more sense?)