Hi folks

Just wondered what you all thought about the idea of a class for champions only which would 'free' up the CC's for other rising stars. I believe that there has been a petition calling for support for this that has already achieved over 800 signatures - so the idea seems to have struck a chord.

Personally I think that when you have a 'flyer' in a breed then that can mean much poorer entries as other folk with good dogs keep them at home ratther than wasting their entry and petrol money. this is especially true when you have Champions that go for the breed record of CC's - I  can think of one dog ( not in my own breed ;)) that has won 42 out of a possible 44 cc's on offer for his breed/sex ! - obviously he's a very good dog - but this must be so disheartening for others in the breed - any thoughts on this ?

Yvonne

It's been discussed before and I still stand by my opinion that it's an awful idea and would devalue the UK Champions title.  I don't my dog to be made up because it beat the also rans - I want it to be made up because it beat ALL the other dogs there! 

I was emailed the petition buy the woman in Scotland in Cockers who started it - I sent her an email back stating, in no uncertain terms, that I wasn't interested in her unsolicited spam.  If you read the reasons for her wanting the Champions class it's the same old story which roughly translates to "my dog isn't good enough to beat the Champions that are around so I want all the better dogs out of the way".  They blame it on 'facey' judging too.  What she doesn't realise is that the 'faces' will just bring out their youngsters and, if that's really the reason their dogs get top awards, they'll STILL get the CC and she'll STILL miss out! 

The UK title is very much prized all over the world because it's hard to get - and rightly so IMO.  There's always the dog who is good enough to be made up but comes up against a flyer time and again, but in the main these are very few and far between.  You only have to look at the results for all the Champ shows to see that there are different Champions in each breed being made up through the year.  If you look down the list of exhibitors who've signed the petition there are very few 'top' names on there.  I've been told that the 'top' exhibitors are all for it as they want another class for their big winning dogs - why haven't they all signed it then?

Nope - I don't like the idea at all.

Debs

I agree Debs. Even though I've never won a RCC or a CC (yet ;) ) I would want to win on merit. If my dog was good enough to deserve the CC then he would get it.

I do though think that there is a case for so many RCC's to count towards being a champion. If you come up against the same flyer time and time again why should you lose out? The dog is obviously good enough to deserve the CC if the winner is disqualified, so why not?

When we made up our Beardie it was in the days of over 250 dogs being entered & she won her three CC's beating champion bitches each time & also(most unusual at the time)won BOB everytime as well. She beat the top winning dogs of the time & even at one open show beat the then CC record holder & famous Percy under a breed specialist. We weren't interested in winning more CC's so only showed her at Crufts & Club shows afterwards(The year before the Potterdale bitch went BIS she beat her in the Open Bitch Class at Crufts)

Champion classes simply make cheap champions, but I do disagree with showing dogs to win CC's into the 30's etc

Having won the RCC this year with a dog I bred who has 2CC's and is now nearly 9 years old, behind the top dog in our breed and Crufts group winner last year (placed there third this) I would still not want to see a champions class. 

I was proud to be placed reserve to such an outstanding dog, even if it means Brodie won't earn his title he has won his 2CC's and RCC against the best out there in the last 8 years.

My Veteran champion bitch also won her 10th CC this year keeping the younger stars on their toes :D

In a numerically small breed like mien people keeping the good dogs in the ring for the younger ones to try and beat keeps competition meaningful.

I'm with Debs on this one too. A champions class would devalue CCs in my opinion. We'd end up like America where it is reasonably easy to make anything up. Making a champion up in this country is a worthy acheivment, something to be proud of, not simply a case of going to every show and eventually all the dogs that beat yours are in the champions class giving you a clear run. I don't think the rcc status should be changed either, I think the system works well as it is.

Even with 'high flyers' in some breeds others still win tickets, I remember this being discussed a while ago on here about chi bitches I think it was? I checked back and discovered that other bitches were made up too. I'm off to check Hungarian viszlas now to see if any other dogs have won tickets other than the obvious high flyer :)

Ok, to prove a point I've looked back at 22 recent(ish) champ shows and looked at Hungarian vizsla dog results. Bearing in mind ;) that there is a current 'high flyer' in that breed which has won the ticket at 13 of the 22 shows I looked at. 3 other dogs won 2 tickets each, 4 other dogs won 1 ticket each. in my opinion this proves the theory that the sytem works as it is. It doesn't matter if someone is going for a breed record, if your dog is good enough and you campaign him well he'll win :)

Out of interest was the high flyer exhibited at all these other shows?

No, but it was beaten at a couple of them. I chose Hungarian Vizslas as they are an extreme example, with a very well known dog campaigning at the moment. If people can still win CCs in that breed then there's nothing wrong with the system in my opinion.

I was just curious  wasn't saying anything else.

No, I think it's an awful idea. How can a dog be judged worthy of the title of champion if it's never competed against any?

A better way to 'add' CCs and increase the numbers of champions would be to have three RCCs from different judges counting as a CC.

For those of you who feel it would make cheep, unworthy champions I think you need to remember that a CC (and RCC) shoudl only be awarded to a dog that a judge feels is worthy of teh title of champion.  Now if there was a champion class like other parts of the world and judges only gave CC's (and RCC's) to dogs they felt were worthy of the title champion this would not make cheep/unworthy champions.

Of course to to it this way you need judges with guts where they will not worry about witholding the CC and only awarding the best of sex.  Now thats not going to happen is it?

It's just not black and white this subject.  But ut is a shame when in a breed you get a high flyer that does alot of winning.  They might deserve to.  I know in one of my breeds there was a lovely dog who is hard to fault and he deserved most of his CC's and his brother was also a very good dog, worthy of his awards.  However entries in Limit and Open now are not worth seeing, silly little numbers, bitches on the other hand....Well thats where it was more open for a CC :)

>I think you need to remember that a CC (and RCC) shoudl only be awarded to a dog that a judge feels is worthy of teh title of champion.

Absolutely. And it should be the best of all entrants, not just the 'best of the rest'.

For those of you who feel it would make cheep, unworthy champions I think you need to remember that a CC (and RCC) shoudl only be awarded to a dog that a judge feels is worthy of teh title of champion.  Now if there was a champion class like other parts of the world and judges only gave CC's (and RCC's) to dogs they felt were worthy of the title champion this would not make cheep/unworthy champions.

No-one has said unworthy - just that I, along with a fair few others it seems, would like to beat ALL the other dogs to win a CC.

Debs

Never mind a Champion Class can we just have CC`s PLEASE!

Pam

I am split on this one. I do think that those who go for the CC records and win 30/40 odd CC's are being a bit "Trophy Hunterish" but I can see why they do it, and would possibly be inclined to myself (if God ever saw fit to bestow on me such a dream dog!!) However on many occasions there have been Judges who openly say in their critiques that there just were too many good dogs on the day and it was splitting hairs. Presumably then these "Also ran's" were in the judges opinion good enough to take the CC, and good enough to be champions.
Would it not be better then to have some degree of points system covering RCC's say one point = RCC, 3 points= CC and 9 points make up a champion in any combination. hence 9 RCC's would make up a champion. I do feel that a RCC is almost disregarded in showing and it a quite an achievement to win a RCC in many breeds especially if there are a couple of "High Flyer's " out there to compete with.

I agree wholeheartedly. If 2 or 3 RCC's equalled 1CC, it would mean that other good dogs would not be held back by a high flyer. As it stands at the moment, RCC's are not worth anything unless the CC winner is disqualified (which is very unlikely). This system would still mean that in the numerically smaller breeds it would not just be a case of turning up to enough shows to gain a title as would be the case if there is a separate Ch class. 

I think we also have to remember that this is supposed to be a hobby and there has to be some incentive for folk to continue - there are after all plenty of other things for them to spend their time and money on !.

Personally I would set a limit of 10 CC's after which a dog should go into a Champion class where it could still go on to challenge for BOB and  win groups etc. I agree that as things stand the res CC is pretty meaningless and I would like to see a system where 3 res CC's equals 1 CC thus any dog that has managed to accumulate 9 would gain Champion status.

Yvonne

Hi!

But please do not forget some poor folk and their loved breeds, that have better entries than some CC breeds and are given NOUGHT!! Because certain "people" dictate (sp) otherwise because it does not suit!

Pam :-)

I would prefer the RCC to be turned into a CC if the CC winner was one with a large tally.

I don't agree with the Champions class.  However, I would like to see RCC's go towards a CC.  This should be limited to those breeds with large numerical entries. Perhaps 3 RCC's for those in Band E and 4 in band D.

Pam - I'm with you on this one - I think that ALL breeds should have CC status - after all plenty of our now unpopular and numerically small terrier breeds have them - why not the newer imports ?.

...and before you all jump up and down shouting " cheap Champions" - just think about it - ALL dog showing is subjective - a dog can be of champion quality irrespective of the numbers being shown against it. If you think about the breeds that regularly win groups at Champ shows - many many of them are from numerically small breeds - when was the last time you saw a Lab win , or a Goldie, or a Cavalier ? - Crufts has been won three times by a Welsh terrier - their entries per class are usually in single figures - so the numbers being exhibited appears to have no bearing on the quality of the dogs being shown....and it 's JUDGES that decide if a dog is of Champion quality not the numbers it is up against.

I am firmly of the opinion that the show scene needs to have a big wake up call - there has to be more of a 'carrot' to encourage new exhibitors and keep those we have 'in the game' for longer - (I read somewhere that the average time a new person stays in the hobby is 5 years ).

Driving is becoming more and more expensive and stressfull - entry fees increase too - without sufficient incentives folk will simply find other things to spend their hard earned cash and leisure time on and we NEED new blood to keep the whole show scene going.

Yvonne

Thing is once you start tampering with a system then the 'new way' tends to throw up problems (As in the case of the JW) and then it gets revamped again. 

I don't want CC's for all breeds, you only have to look at Australia & New Zealand where there's some shockingly poor specimens carrying titles, CC's are given and rarely withheld because of the distances people travel to a show so a CC is looked upon as a 'reward'.   I don't want Champion classes either.  

I agree on putting a limit on maximum CC wins, after all you only need 3 to make a dog up why do you need anymore and the proof of the pudding to me is if a dog can reproduce itself or better, not how many green cards wallpaper the lounge.

No to RCC wins making a ticket, if your dog is only getting a RCC why isn't it beating the CC winner?

The wording on the RCC, just as on the CC itself, states that, in the judge's opinion, the animal is worthy of the title of Champion. If the RCC is valueless in progress to a title, why have it at all?

If the RCC is valueless in progress to a title, why have it at all?

It's really only there in case the CC winner gets disqualified.

Debs

I know - but how often does that happen in reality?

But the wording on it still says that the dog is, in the judges opinion "of such outstanding merit to be worthy of being awarded the Challenge Certificate should the Challenge Certificate winner be disqualified" so how would making this award count towards a Champion be devaluing our Champions? I feel it would only go towards helping to improve the benefits of showing and may inspire more owners to have a go.
As someone has said..how many not so confidant judges go for the safe option and put up the "High Flyer" on the day, there must be many great dogs out there who are worthy Champions and are sitting on half a dozen RCC's but are fighting all the time against one multiple winner when they are of equally good merit themselves. I think we should not stop the Champions showing in the classes but give the RCC some teeth and afford it the status it deserves.

I agree on putting a limit on maximum CC wins, after all you only need 3 to make a dog up why do you need anymore

The only problem with that is what do I do with my bitch?  She was made up at 2 years old - so without a Champions class (which I don't want either) I have to stop showing her, or show only in Champion stakes classes which I'm not interested in.  I'm limited to how many dogs I can look after properly so that means I'm being forced to stop showing the breed altogether.  She had to be spayed due to medical problems so I'm left with no brood bitch and no show dog.  My older bitch (now 10 years old) was made up at under two years old so that would have been another one I couldn't show.  It simply doesn't work.

I'd personally just like to see things left as they are.

Debs

My girl was made up at 3 and I rarely showed her after that.   She'd done what I wanted her too, she won another CC under a judge I respect and I'm more than happy with that.    Her younger sister is now in open on 2 CC's & 3 RCC's and I'd rather see her made up than me win more CC's.

Here's a question for the people who want 3 RCC's to equal a CC.

My bitch won a RCC as a puppy.   She won her 2nd RCC under Frank Kane.   Then she won her 3 CC's.   Another RCC from Frank Kane (So that's 3RCC's - 2 from Frank Kane), her 4th CC was from Frank himself.    So in reality does she have 3 actual RCC's to trade in even though 2 were from the one judge?   And then who's name would be signed on the trade-off?

Under my ideal system, three RCCs would only count as a CC if they were from different judges, just as the 3 CCs have to be to make a champion. So under the 'JG-system' ;) she'd have to get another RCC under a different judge to trade them up for a CC.

Ditto here.  I have made up bitches at 21 months and under 3 years of age.  Our breed don't even reach their prime until five.  I would object to not being able to show them anymore, as it is people get funny about you showing at Open shows and I haven't been to one for nearly two years.

In plenty of cases the RCC winner isnt beating the CC winner because the judge prefers to "play safe" (or whatever you want to call it).

Thanks Yvonne,

I just find it soooooo frustrating..I have made Champions up abroad, been placed in groups at International level abroad... been judged on numerous occasions by my hounds Country of Origin and been graded excellent. My stud dog sired the Zwolle and Euro Dog Show in Belgium Group 1 winner 2005 and from this last litter I have a puppy going to one of the top kennels in the Netherlands to be campaigned all over Europe including Sweden.....

Our wins in the UK also speak for themselves.

I have been in my breed for nearly 9 years now so YES it is about time we had CC`s ;-) maybe THEN we will be taken more seriously in the UK.

End of rant! LOL

Pam :-)

Hiya Pam,

Having previously been in your breed for 15 years I know what you're saying :) But you know as well as I do that the quality and number of dogs in the breed has nothing to do with why they don't have CCs.  Other factors (or one factor in particular ;) ) comes into play.

Debs

OOh now I'm intrigued ....do tell :D

Yvonne

Hi Debs and Yvonne,

Well just the truth really... two imports from Sweden a "few" years ago and a REALLY FANTASTIC dog called "Vincent" from that mating......and that was that nnooooooo interest to carry on from there in the earlier years, to be fair the internet was not available so everything was a lot harder!!

Debs....I have appreciated over the later years for us here, your support and opinions :-) and I know how much you love the breed.

YES we are being held back and I would love to see the Kennel Club help us move on.... "WITHOUT THE KENNEL CLUB HELP" our FANTATSIC breed WILL carry on being held back and we do not deserve this.

First and foremost though our guys are family members and we LOVE them.

Pam :-)

I have always had a soft spot for the breed even before I had the grey curly tails and had a black straight tailed one :D  I just adored Debs Blossom.

Hi Brainless,

YES, Blossom was LOVELY xx.

Pam

Aww thanks guys - Blossom was a once in a lifetime dog I think.  I wish there had been four group placings when I was showing her because she was pulled in the final 6 time and again but never won one or got a reserve.

There have always been dogs of this breed who have deserved their titles - but the depth of quality varied all the time and still does.  Now, it's just a case of somehow sorting the club's judges list out ;)  It can't go on like it is - it's doing the breed no favours whatsoever.

Debs

Someone will need to let go of control first though.