Hi all, need to pick your collective brains again ~ this time on weaning. I have done a search and read some previous threads (and now have a few more questions :rolleyes: ) but here goes.
My girl's pups are 19 days old, all 8 are good sturdy pups (well 1 is smaller, he is the only one born naturally, all other c-section if that makes any difference??). She had to have a c-section and was spayed, and up until the last few days has been happily feeding her pups. Now she seems to want to feed them, she hops into the box, but they literally mob her, she sometimes cries out in pain, and promptly hops back out again. She is sore around her scar, and she has some fantastic love bites, but all her teats appear to be fine, we sponge her down daily and check her milk flow.
I have been settling her next to the box, and giving her pups to her 2 or 3 at a time (smallest first)..I have to tune in to her, cos sometimes she will happily lay there with them on her, and sometimes she'll only stand 5 minutes per sitting. The pups all seem fine, steadily putting weight on, not crying excessively, eyes are open and they are playing and sleeping normally, but I guess I'm getting worried now as she's spending less and less time with them.
We rarely hear her feeding them over the monitor, though she did feed them herself twice today, first time for less than 5 mins, second time for more than 10 mins, and I have put them onto her 5 times today.
My husband thinks we should be offering them food. From what I've read here I'm interested in the offering of raw meat, our hounds eat predominantly raw as normal, including Mum, so would I use the dog Beef I get frozen from P@H or use a better quality human grade (obviously frozen first)??
I did buy in plenty of Skinners puppy food and a big tub of Skinners puppy milk intending to make up some "porridge", but thought it a bit early to start them on that yet??  
So I don't know if there's anything I can do to make her more comfortable?? I am in the process of trimming puppy claws, but it's a 2 person job at best and I'm single handed until tomorrow.
This is her second litter, but my first experience. I am told that with her first litter she was quite underweight and her milk dried up after 10 days, she had 10 pups, so I feel really pleased that it's day 19 and she still has milk and still suckles her pups, even if only for short periods.
Is there anything else I should be doing?? Or anything I shouldn't be doing??
If she's happy the pups will be happy, she's eating fine and has kept a good weight on her as well, I am quite proud of what I've achieved as well, but guess I need a bit of reassurance that I'm not making some glaringly obvious mistakes :rolleyes:

Keeping the nails clipped is very important - they very soon turn into savage hooked daggers that can cause horrible wounds on a bitch. Also their teeth are coming through now, but there's nothing you can do about that!

I'd expect a bitch to be feeding them pretty much fulltime at this stage - it's the time of the greatest production of milk and the bitch should be having almost unlimited very high-quality food - about four times her usual maintenance ration.

For an average sized liter of 8 (depending on breed of course) I wouldn't start weaning till 3 weeks, but if the pups are going hungry then there's no option. I'd expect a bitch to still have enough milk to give the pups the occasional comfort top-up at 7 weeks - the milk drying up sooner isn't usual.

You can either thoroughly soak a top-quality puppy complete so that it's a mush and let them have a teaspoonful per day for a few days, or scrape some steak with the back of a knife to get a pulp and let them have the same amount, just to start them on solids.

I think she would feed them more if she could just single out 1 or 2 pups, it's just when she goes in the box it's like she's under attack!! I've even considered setting up 2 boxes and splitting the pups if that will encourage her. She sleeps in the same room as the pups, but on some bedding near the box, and during the day she spends some time away from the pups in other parts of the house. She's still attentive tho, toilets and cleans up after them.

I guess I'm gonna have to finish trimming claws and see if that makes any difference.

If the pups were crying a lot I'd be more worried, so I have to trust that she knows what she's doing (cos I sure as hell don't :rolleyes: )

I would make up some puppy porridge and start them on it now so it tales the edge off their appetites so they mob Mum less and she will be happier to be with them again (I had this with one of my litters it got so the bitch was scared to go in with the pups, but wanted to), I started them off on a porridge four times a day and then let Mum feed them after, and things got a lot calmer.

I like to start mine off at 18 days to that by 21 days they are used to having something in their stomachs other than Mums milk so that I have less problems with reactions to the wormer.

I don't give noemal mince until foru weeks as it is too course for babies.

Traditionally people ahve scrped steak for puppies to try where a piece of lean steak is scrped with the edge of a sharp knife so that a pulp forms.

thanks Barbara ~ that makes a lot of sense. The pups have now had all claws trimmed right back (and I have had a lesson in how to do it properly ) and Mum has just fed them, so I guess that's the biggest issue.
I will make up some porridge later and see how they take to it, and think about introducing some meat after they get to 4 weeks as suggested.
Good plan!

Remember you will need at first to offer each pup food (i use a spoon) as otherwise they will just get absolutely plastered and it sets like concrete in their coats.  Once they get the hang of having it I raise the dish off the ground so they are less likely to climb in it.  I put the flat dish I am using inside a normal height dog bowl (one a size so the dish doesn't fall into it of course).

Initially they will only take a spoonful or two each per meal.

I brought a pack of soft plastic baby weaning spoons to feed mine with - much softer on their gums if they chewed it. They also loved playing with it after the meal - licking it to death. You can but the spoons in superdrug or any chemist.
I also used a shallow mini  muffin tin to feed them, that way each puppy had the same amount of food and they didnt tred all through it, they kept to thier own little feeding dish. When they got bigger i just used a bigger tin.

Lorri

thanks peeps. Well I made up some porridge, and so far they've had 2 sessions. I took a pup at a time and just dipped my finger in the mush and gave it to them, some were better than others at taking it (my t-shirt can testify to that!!), and on the second sesh I used a shallow tupperware container, and after giving the pup a taste from my finger I directed the pup to the container and most managed to lick up what was in there (just a teaspoonful max)

so it appears to be working! I also let Mum lick my fingers and taste the mush so she would recognise the smell on her babies.

The good thing is that we have heard her on the monitor feeding her babes, so I think a combination of manicured and partly fed pups is doing the trick!!

I am so relieved

Yay!

I usually let Mum ahve whatever pups leave :D

um well now I have a poorly pup this morning....it's the same female who was a bit "off it" after she was wormed. This morning she's crying to herself, not wanting to feed, and quite lethargic. My husband has stimulated her to wee, and she has been weeing, but I'm wondering if she's constipated?? He says she's been sick as well.
All the other pups are fine, playing and motoring around their box, and feeding voraciously off Mum when given a chance.
So did I do something wrong yesterday?? I know they're young, just 3 weeks old today, but I didn't think a couple of teaspoonfuls of the mixture I made would harm them
I'm quite worried about the little girl, just waiting to hear back from breeder, then I might have to call the vet.....

any ideas...please....

can't give you an answer sorry, but what I would suggest if you are still worried and things have not changed since this morning, is to give your vet a call and ask what he /she recommends.

well I've come to the conclusion that she likes to worry us :rolleyes: She had a feed off her mum at around 2.30, and had a poo at about 5pm. I have never been so pleased to see puppy poo
all pups have just had another feed off mum, and she was sucking away merrily, so we'll keep an eye on her but she looks ok now.
I've decided to give them a couple of meals of porridge every other day this week, increasing it to every day next week, and then increasing the number of meals, to ease them (and us) gradually into weaning.

the pups is at the vets. She did not settle last night apparently (I'm on night shifts at the mo) When I came in from work this morning she wasn't as perky as the others, but had a feed off her Mum with them. I went to bed after giving hubby strict instructions to make up a sloppy porridge for the others, but to keep her on her Mum.
Anyway got up at 1pm and hubby proudly announced that he had made up a human baby sized bottle of puppy milk and given her half of it
And she would not settle, cried all afternoon, still pooing and weeing, but also burping a lot and being a bit sicky.
So I was not very happy with him.
And by 5.30 I was that worried about her that I phoned the vets and spoke to a vet, popped her up, and the vet said she was very concerned about the pup as she appeared to be in a lot of discomfort and pain.
So she has gone over to the main surgery, had an x-ray of her tummy which shows some food and gas but no obvious blockages (which I wouldn't expect as she actually had a poo on the vets table) they have abstracted some of the gas, but she still won't settle. They are going to x-ray her again in an hour to see if there is any change in her tummy, but if she doesn't settle they are going to keep her in.....my poor baby girl
the vet asked hubby what she had eaten, so we told her; the puppy meal mushed up with puppy milk to make a porridge, the same as the other pups, who are all happy as Larry.
the vet says liver shunt can't be detected by x-ray at this stage, as that crossed our minds....but right now I don't know what to think.
I feel it is all my fault and although she is one of the bigger pups I should have waited another week before trying some slightly solid food into her.
Fingers crossed for my baby, I just want her back home with her Mum.....

Poor baby!

Hope all is well with her .....

Margot x

Aww poor wee thing, I don't think its your fault at all - after all the others are all fine. I hope she is better and home soon.

Do puppies get colic? I would imagine that would make her very uncomfortable and whiny?
Marion

well I've just been and picked her up, vet says her stomach appears to be fine, everything moving along, but she is concerned that the pup still appears unsettled with no obvious reason. She also states that she appears a bit weak on her back legs and is supporting herself mainly on her front legs
I have taken her back home, she had no interest in any food from Mum, but seemed happier back with her siblings.
Appt in morning with vet so will see how she is then (and pay for this little lot :rolleyes:)

I had a similar problem with one of my puppies he had a windy tum and was crying after feeding I gave a tiny drop of gripe water and put him on my shoulder as you would a baby and rub him, it worked he then grew out of it , I would also rub him gently with cotton wool to make him wee and poo after feeding .
(as advised from a breeder with 30yrs exp)

dont worry

Roni

I had a quick search and lots of people seem to advise giving a wee drop of natural yoghurt, the kind with bacteria in, to help with windy, colicky tummies, certainly worth a try.

she's been to the vets twice today, this morning and at tea-time.
She's a lot perkier, and she had a pain relief injection this morning and an antibiotic, and another pain relief later. She had a small feed off Mum after 5pm, and the vet is pleased with her progress, though she's certainly not out of the woods yet.
She's standing on her own, and managing a wobbly walk in the box, and she snuggles with her litter mates a lot. She's not crying much at all now.
We just have to make sure she gets feeds little and often from Mum.
So we don't know what the problem is, all we can do is try and nurture her through this.
Fingers crossed  

I hope this sorts itself out with your little girl. Big hugs for you as you have been through so much. As long as she is bright and showing signs of wanting to feed please don't worry unduly at the moment

thankyou - but I know I won't relax until she's back to her normal self.
until this, she was one of the biggest pups, and one of the greediest feeders. But she had a good 10 mins on her mum at teatime, and hubby just rang to tell me she had fed again for a good 20 mins, and seemed a lot stronger too.
I'm wondering if she's hurt herself, maybe she's pulled on her mum too much and been hoisted off a teat none too gently, and that combined with a gripey tummy has really set her back?? The vet was certainly thinking she had hurt her neck or back, but as the x-rays didn't show anything I am wondering if she has a bit of soft tissue damage?? She's dark coated so can't see any bruising anywhere
it's a mystery, but as long as she continues to improve I can relax a little more...

By 'eck, they don't 'alf pull on yer 'eart strings these little scraps of fur

How is the little girl today? I hope that she has picked up and is up on her feet now. Everything crossed that she makes a speedy recovery.

well she is a lot brighter. Her glucose levels are higher than yest, she looks a bit thin round her back end, but we're going to keep popping her on her Mum. Best of all, she has started playing again, she tugs on the other pups tails!!! I know she's not out of the woods yet, but if she keeps this up I'm hoping she'll be back to normal in a couple of days.
I also think we'l try her on a bit of mushed up meat, the others have had some watery porridge (as I'm really paranoid about that now) and they all seem fine (frantically touching wood now :rolleyes:)
all pups have had an explore of the whelping room AKA the study, there's a couple of patches of wee on the vet-bedding on the floor but I'm not worried about that.
I'm looking forward to getting to know these little guys, a couple of the boys are really standing out right now, and the other girl is a character too...
well it's puppy-huddle time back in their box....time to go and cuddle the big pooches....