I heard that someone has bought a puppy unseen, he choose it from a picture on the web and has paid a lot of money for it. The first time he sees it, is when he goes and collects it. I couldnt buy a puppy like that could you.

They are being a total idiot.  Not only supporting puppy farming and, consequently contributing to the terrible suffering of the parents but risking taking on and loving an animal that carried a very high risk of health and temperament issues that will cost them dearly during its lifetime.............if they stick with it.  If you know them well you could point this out but in my experience there are many people who just do not care.  They just want whatever it is they want.  They get the dog they deserve of course but that is no consolation to the all those suffering because of this type of trading.

I actually got my import bitch unseen.  I had regular photos sent from the time she was born but never actually saw her in the flesh.  Have to say it's a bit different when you're buying from a trusted breeder who you've known for years and the puppy is in another country. 

Debs

He's not buying it from puppy farm, they only keep one breed, its just a person who breeds pedigree dogs as pets, and this is what he is going to do as well.

They may have only one breed but any breeder who will sell over the internet without actually meeting the buyer and then go on to trust them to breed from the puppy is not a responsible breeder in my book.  Debs sort of circumstances excepted of course :) but as this is a "pet breeder" this is clearly not the case here.

He is going to breed with her to make money, i think its disgracefull.

And another puppy farmer is born. :(

Yes i agree.

But what can we do about it?

As I said, if you know this person well you could point out that they are taking a high risk that they are buying an unhealthy animal that will cost them more than they will ever recoup selling puppies, if they even get to that stage.  You could also point out that if they are patient and prepared to put the work in they could seek out a reputable breeder who would mentor them through the learning curve of showing and, in time, breeding from their own efforts but as this is more emotionally rewarding than financially rewarding I don't know what your chances are :rolleyes:  I suspect you will just end up with bruises from banging your head on the wall.  Personally, I would be happy to show my contempt if they are determined to set out on a course puppy farming but again probably futile :(

Try and try again to educate people.  Sometimes though it just doesn't work.  We can all still try...........

Highlight the bad that puppy farmers and back street breeders cause, promote what happends to all these dogs when not sent to the correct homes....

Debs, There are exceptions, did you by any chance meet the breeder though?  and some of their dogs?  There's a difference from seeing a picture of a puppy on the internet and buyinig it compared to plenty of reseach into lines and breeders and then choosing one who happeneds to live too far to possibly go and visit due to time and cost.

There's not a lot you can do :( We can talk until we go blue in the face but it won't make any difference.

I've just sold a puppy via the internet, puppy unseen, BUT I am taking the puppy down, meeting them in neutral territory (no, not a car park but someones house) and I have told the would-be owners that if they decide they don't like me, the pup or I don't like them then I will return home with the puppy no recriminations either way. No money has been handed over. I feel that this is the only way we can do it in this instance. I wouldn't normally do it, but they already have one of this breed and have waited for a while for another.

I'm sorry Lindylou but I can't see how you can possibly get to know someone adequately in a car park.  (Sorry reread, a house).  Have you had references from their previous breeder at least?  Having a dog before and wainting a while would not be nearly enough for me and unless you have a serious buyer waiting in the wings and prepared to be disappointed (and if you have, why not simply let them have it?) won't the temptation be too large to look on them in an over kindly light?

Isabel, as I said I don't normally do this. The people already have one of the breed. In fact it is related closely to my own bitch. And yes, it was word of mouth. We have spoken a few times on the phone, and both of us were wary of doing it this way but there are circumstances involved that I won't go into on the open internet. They do live about an 8 hours drive away so coming up before the pup was ready is a bit too much when the pups are 8 weeks old on Tuesday. My breed are not for the faint hearted but once you have one you do tend to be spitten, or put off completely ;) I don't breed very often (my last litter was 5 years ago) so I tend to take a bit more care about potential owners. This pup was only for sale after someone let me down at the last minute. :( Not their fault, and they will be coming back to me for my next litter, hopefully.

I believe that puppy farmers are only in it for the money. I'll be lucky if I break even with this litter. They don't care about the health of any of the dogs involved. So long as it looks vaguely like the breed it is supposed to be they will use it. There is someone near to me who breeds springers. At least that is what they are supposed to be. Now that the docking ban is in effect I dread to think where he will go.

There's no way I'd ever sell a puppy to someone I hadn't met at least once, I'm afraid, and who I'd seen interacting with the adults of my breed. Have these people been personally recommended to you by someone whose judgement you trust implicitly?

With a breed like mine that's so rare, you often get buyers that live very far away and that logically cannot come and visit the pups before they are ready. The ones of mine that have gone to Ireland (both Northern and Southern, 3 pups in total) being a point in question. I don't take deposits so that I am NOT obliged to sell, and the buyer knows that they take a risk. Obviously I ask them all questions beforehand and check up on them as much as possible (and may even ask for references), but the main part of checking them out WILL be when they turn up to collect. Should I not like them (and my adult dogs!), they WILL be turned away, and they know this. Likewise I know that they may not like the pup or me or my adults and will decide not to take the pup. It is a risk but I don't see a huge problem. Good buyers for my breed are few and far between as the pups never go as pure pets, so I wouldn't want to risk losing out on a great buyer just because they cannot come to visit before collection. A friend of mine had a man come up from London to Yorkshire on the day her pups were ready (different breed) and when she met him for real she did not like him and refused to sell him the pup.He kept saying he'd travelled so far, she just said sorry, you took the risk.

Interesting how we all have different views on what is OK.  I would expect a potential purchased to want to see Dam and any other relatives and would expect them to make the journey at least once to prove their committment to the puppy.  I would certainly want to meet anyone before agreeing to let them have a puppy, see how they behave around adults etc.  I once had a lot of communication, emails and telephone, with a lovely man who was obviously passionate about having another dog.  When he arrived with his wife, she stood against the wall with her arms folded - they didn't even get onto the waiting list! 

I'm astounded that this happens.  Our puppy is a rare breed and our breeder lives 3.5 hours drive from us.  I met her many times before the pups were even born at the club show, at various dog shows, at Crufts etc.  We also visited two other breeders at their homes and another pet dog owner to see what the breed were like in a home environment.  When the pups were born we went down to visit at 4 weeks and then back again to collect at 8 weeks. 

The idea of buying a puppy without even seeing it first - I can't imagine it!   (Unless as somebody mentioned above it was coming from abroad).  And I am a newbie owner, having never had a pedigree before, and the puppy is 'just' a pet and will never be shown.

In my breed living 3 1/2 hours away would be considered quite local.

With only around 20 litters bred a year it is rare for new owners to be local.

I have had people visit every week from the pups birth, but others have trusted me to pick a puppy from them usually having met me and my dogs long before the litter were born.

Where pups have gone abroad it has been by recommendation with references.

To be honest in a litter one pup is much like another, it is the breeder and the bloodlines that are more important, it is much more important that the new owner should assess these than any actual puppy which will change day by day and to be hones the potential owner would be hard put to tell the pups apart within a few minutes let alone a few weeks.

In fact they are more likely to know the pups apart with the ability to shre digital photos etc, than they ever are with viewing and then picking up a few weeks later.

I was given(not sold) my Rjj sight unseen as the breeder lives in cornwall I had never met him but knew him via friends & his books etc, he did sent me photos & there was only a choice of two a tri & a black & white & as i prefer B&W I chose him !

I wouldn't buy a puppy from someone I didn't know sight unseen no matter where the breeder lived

I have spoken to this man about breeding but he told me to mind my own business. He is not a person i would want to mess with. But i do know that if someone knocks on his door when he has puppies for sale as long as they have the cash, the puppy is theirs even if the new owners are at work all day. I forgot to mention he has bred dogs before. All the dogs he owns looked loved and well cared for, i just dont agree with what he does.

So, he already is a puppy farmer!

I always think of a puppy farmer is someone who keeps their dogs in cages, like you see in pictures if you put in a search for puppy farmers, where they live in disgraceful conditions. I never thought of this man as a puppy farmer, but i think you might be right.

I think of a puppy farmer as someone who produces puppies to sell rather than improve either the breed standard, working ability, agility etc., and there are plenty of them about! :(

See quite a few adds that state puppies ready to be viewed soon, deposits being taken now. thought the wording was wrong.....but tis clearer now. :rolleyes:

When his puppy is old enough to breed, he will be looking for a stud dog to put her with. If like previous times he will contact people like you, and when he sells his puppies he says the father of the puppies is a champion and he has been to crufts, thats always a good selling ploy and people fall for it and the sale is made. I hope stud dog owners ask lots of questions before allowing them to use their dog. :)

Responsible stud owners will and will undoubtedly turn him down. 
I would question whether he has been able to use champions at stud and wonder if, in fact, like just about every registered dog walking the land, there is merely a champion stud somewhere in the five generation pedigree.  People are easily duped over this particular aspect.

Sadly even some stud owners with show winners will let them mate anything that has an owner who is willing to pay a stud fee........ My Papillon (who I must add is THE most wonderful dog on earth :) ) has an unregistered mother, who herself was bred from an unregistered bitch :rolleyes: Yet his father has a CC and is a wellknown dog!!

Bloomin heck 20,000 dogs go to Crufts each year, doesn't make them particularly special.

Talking about puppy farms, reminds me that someone said you can get kitten farms, thats where some pet shops get their kittens from. How can people breed animals and then sell them to pet shops, i think thats so sad.

How can people walk into pet shops and say "I want that puppy/kitten"  with no research is beyond me.

Would someone who is pregnant not read any books, talk to family and friends with same experiance and go along to groups to learn what they are in for?

people walk into pet shops wanting parrots, rabbits, guinea pigs, etc etc and no one bats an eyelid?  sorry but its just as bad buying these sort of animals from pet shops as it is buying cats and dogs....  its wrong!!!

but at least they are caged species.  So really for the animal being in one cage or another makes no great difference.  Though for me Parrots (because of their intelligence and sensitivity) are an exception, and I don't agree with the sale of exotics at all.

I have certainly sold pups this way when the distance was too far for people to come more than once.

Maybe in a breed where there is just the one colour and the purchaser and the breeder trust each other, then it isn't an issue.

After all the pup you buy today will be totally different in a few weeks.

One of the puppy buyers from my last litter had waited well over a year for their pup (had booked when the bitch had missed before), and could only come down on the day to pick theri pup.  they trusted me to pick a pup to suit them.

Another pup went abroad, so they didn't see her until she arrived there.  Teh cost of importing was twice the purchace price.

I chose a very bold but smaller pup bearing in mind the couple were in their middle years with an adult daughter to help out.  They were warned that pup would have a strong character in order for it to take the stress of travelling on the chin.

I've just re-homed a 7 month old springer bought by an elderly couple as a companion, they phoned the breeder through an ad in the paper, he chose a "nice" one from the litter and brought it round for them, took their money and left a puppy behind, they struggled on with a bundle of pure energy for 5 months before contacting me, she was one of the fortunate ones and has now gone to a home that understands he needs.

Exactly the same can and does happen with the people visiting lots.

I had this happen twice to me with people I thought were rock steady.  both had owned a number of the breed before and came to me for a new puppy.

Now I realise that both had failed to take into account that they were 12 to 15 years older and had also forgotten what hard work pups are.

On the other hand I have had some super first time owners that have really done their homework.  when homing pups there is a fair element of luck no matter your vetting procedure.

didnt have time to read the whole thread but it reminded me of a best in show crufts winner several years ago. cant for the life of me remember the breed but he was collected unseen on a train at about a year old and then went on to win best in show!

This is amusing me, The expression that comes to mind is 'Never say Never'.
We collected our boy at a private airfield car park............We arrived on small private plane, puppy with breeder drove to meet us, we took puppy on board and flew off into the sunset................Sometimes trust and understanding have to come into play.
Karen ;-)

Wow, how amazing how we all differ.  I insist that people come and see the dam and her pups, even from abroad!!  I've had Pomeranian's go to Portugal and the new owners have come to pick the pup up.  One of my Spanish went to Ireland nearly two years ago and again I insisted that she came to see the mum and pups.  She came at 4 weeks and then to pick the pup up at 7 weeks the same as everyone else.

I have someone who wants a pup who lives in Sweden.  She will be coming later this year to see my dogs. 

I have a numerically strong breed and a waiting list as long as my arm, although my last two litters stayed :rolleyes:
The people on my serious waiting list, have visited from way before mating, and continue to visit/email/phone right the way through. In fact most are now good friends and are prepared to wait as long as it takes.
One lady wanted a pup as a pet from my Oct 06 litter, she didn't get one as both puppies stayed.  She is now waiting for my next litter (Different bitch)  She said I was the first breeder she had visited and I had set her standards so high, she hadn't found anyone else that would do.
A real boost to me as it was only my second litter

Think I've gone on a bit now, but no I would never sell or buy a puppy unseen

I bought my first ever borzoi unseen, I had pics from 1 day old up to 12 weeks when I got him. I chose his lines and then trusted his breeder to pick me a show quality one. Interstingly years later i met a woman with his litter brother and she said mine was always considered the 'runt' of the litter. Anyway, it worked out fine for me - I'd never had a show dog before and he won 5CCs, a general Ch show best in group and several other top class wins...but most importantly he was just the sweetest borzoi I've ever met and even now 12 years after his death I still miss him, although I have his Great great grandsons here :)

I went to Spain twice to check on Lastar before I brought him over the ensure that his temperament etc. would fit in with the rest of my household.  I couldn't really afford it but it was something I felt that I had to do. 

>>>I heard that someone has bought a puppy unseen, he choose it from a picture on the web and has paid a lot of money for it. The first time he sees it, is when he goes and collects it. I couldnt buy a puppy like that could you<<<

I suppose it depends on why you want the pup? If for showing then I would agree that surely its wiser to see in the flesh before making a decision- we had a rescue girly that we had only seen in pics and still went ahead with the adoption

I more or less bought Ellie unseen - I had lots of photos and videos sent to me, and as I wanted her to show as well as be a pet I checked her tan carefully before buying - but I was already in love by the time I saw her! Her breeder knew of me because of the previous Cavalier I had owned and shown for a few years, so she knew I was a good owner (I hope so anyway!) and we had agreed that it wasn't certain I would take her home when I saw her, until we were both happy with each other and the puppy. :-)

I think that it's a different matter when you 'are known'. :)  I've had a couple of people travel down from Scotland to buy pups to show, and two pets too come to think of it, and had come on the recommendation of a good friend who I trust.  If you are 'in the breed' then you ARE KNOWN, good and bad! ;)  That's not the same as receiving an enquiry from someone who you don't know from Adam out of the blue. :)