I was in Perth (scotland not australia) the other day and saw a dog which appeared to be a brown WHWT . I pointed it out to my mum who, as it had its back turned to her, thought it was a cairn, but then it turned round and its head was definitely Westie. It was a lovely looking dog,  but really brown, not just creamy, with a few white patches on its chest. So, does a brown WHWT exist or was it just a mongrel that had a bit of westie in it?

I know someone who has a westie x cairn.  It looks exactly like a westie only brindle coloured :)

Ah ha! This one wasn't brindle though it was a really rich brown, sort of brandy coloured? very pretty !

I think Westies were developed from a few white cairns after a chap accidentally shot his dog mistaking it for a fox, and decided he'd only keep the white ones. So if a Westie was crossed with a cairn you'd be replacing genes that were there originally.

Perhaps it was a throwback? I also seem to recall they were developed from Cairns. I'm not a terrier expert, do the heads look very different or could it have been a 'bad' quality Cairn?

Cairns come in various different colours.  The breed standard says "Cream, wheaten, red, grey or nearly black.  Brindling in all these colours
acceptable."  It could have been a Cairn in a Westie trim maybe?

Debs

In my local paper under the lost and found section there was an advert from someone who'd lost a black westie. :-D

I've had throwbacks in both of my breeds Pomeranian's and Spanish Water Dogs.  Have to say they were quite a shock when they came out especially the black and tan bitch in Pomeranians to two cream dogs, but must admit we kept her and she was everything that the breed should be and more!!!  

Now the tri boy in Spanish that I sold has had more people interested in the breed than any other dog!

It was definitely a westie head, just the wrong colour and it was clipped like a westie too, it was just the brown colour that made my mum think cairn (her eyesight isn't that good now!). I think the cross is probably the explanation, maybe to another terrier breed rather than cairn giving the lovely brandy colour? I heard that either westies come in black or scotties come in white (can't remember which way round) but that the black and white whisky dogs were the same breed, not a whwt and a scottie as most people think?

Wish I'd gone over and asked the man who had it now :-)

Scotties come in wheaten and brindle as well as black, but are very unusual.
Wheaten scottie.
Brindle scottie.

Doesn' the wheaten scottie look stunning!

I like the Brindle myself.

I wonder if it has been clipped by someone more used to doing Westies :)

Australian Terrier????

The black and white whisky dogs were a scottie and a westie :)

Thing is would you know the difference if it was a cairn clipped in westie style.  I don't think I know enough about the breeds differences in head to know.  To me apart from the haircut there is little difference, and as the Westie was bred from the Cairn then that is not surprising.

My Guess would be it is a Cairn in a Westie trim.

Breed standards for head of the two breeds:

Cairn:
Head and Skull
Head small, but in proportion to body. Skull broad; a decided indentation between the eyes with a definite stop. Muzzle powerful, jaw strong but not long or heavy. Nose black . Head well furnished.

Westie:
Head and Skull
Skull slightly domed; when handled across forehead presents a smooth contour. Tapering very slightly from skull at level of ears to eyes. Distance from occiput to eyes slightly greater than length of foreface. Head thickly coated with hair, and carried at right angle or less, to axis of neck. Head not to be carried in extended position. Foreface gradually tapering from eye to muzzle. Distinct stop formed by heavy, bony ridges immediately above and slightly overhanging eye, and slight indentation between eyes. Foreface not dished nor falling away quickly below eyes, where it is well made up. Jaws strong and level. Nose black and fairly large, forming smooth contour with rest of muzzle. Nose not projecting forward.

I would probably do a Cairn in a Westie-ish trim, as the pet owners probably wouldn't want the fluffier style from the show ring would they? Haven't had any book in yet, I will ask what they want if it happens! I saw a wheaten Scottie once, gorgeous!

Why wouldn't they want their Cairn to look like the ones in the show ring?  It's not the most difficult terrier coat to master is it?

I thought the Cairn had the more 'natural'-looking style compared to the westie. Wouldn't that be what pet owners would prefer?

We used to own a Cairn many years ago.   They are slightly smaller all round than Westies but very similar in shape/proportion and with the wide variation between different dogs can appear to be the saem size in some instances :)

When my parents were having her clipped she always came back in a 'Westie' Clip and sometimes a very BAD Westie clip no matter what they asked for   In fact so bad that I persuaded my parents to let me start stripping her out - after all it couldn't be any worse than they were paying for ;) so that's what I did :)

The dog that was spotted could very well have been a Cairn - they aren't all typical size and don't always have the typical coat or trim either :)

I trim a cairn and the people want it looking like my show westies. They love the neater look :-)

That is what I always thought.  Most Cairns I ahve been know didn't got to the groomer and just looked rough and ready.

I read a description of the breed somewhere, can't remember where but never forgot as it described a correctly coated Cairn as looking like a ROADSWEEPER'S BRUSH :D  :D   So very true LOL

Personally I like the 'rough and ready' look, but I find with other breeds a lot of pet people just want them short and tidy. Look at all the Shih Tzus with bodies clipped on a 7F after all! But if that's what they want, that's what they'll get!

I'm seeing more and more Westies and Cairns clipped out like Sealyhams and they look truely awful  :(  :(     There must be a few groomers locally who have NO idea of the different styles and finishes of the different breeds :rolleyes:  Why people are willing to pay for this is beyond me

As a cairn pet owner I have to say I much prefer the more "natural" look. It is extremely difficult to find a groomer locally who handstrips properly. The one and only time I took my cairn to be groomed he came home looking exactly like a "wheaten westie"
despite assurances by the groomer that she knew how a cairn should look.
jane

I really like the scruffbag look of the cairn, and tend to recomend them to people over Westies who don't want professional grooming.

I love the ready-for-anything natural look too. :)

You could try stripping the coat out yourself ;)   A good book on  Cairns should give you some idea ;) 

Hi I do try to strip the coat myself, I have books and I purchased a video demonstrating how to do it. In some areas I can cope well but the tail, legs and particularly the head cause me problems. I can never seem to get the right shape or see where I need to strip. Despite this he still looks better than when he went to the groomers.
jane

If you wear a pair of disposable latex gloves it is much easier as the hair tends to stick to them.
Karen

(can't remember which way round) but that the black and white whisky dogs were the same breed, not a whwt and a scottie as most people think?

That is 100% incorrect the black and white on the bottles were never the same breed always a scottie and a westie. Both have been around for more that 100 years registered as the breeds respectively.. It is just people who misinterpretate them.

I often get people phoning me up for a black westie.. because the shortened name is used so much people forget that the WHWT is just that a west highland white terrier..

The WH was bred from the white puppies that arrived irregularly through various terrier litters that were often disregarded like the boxers white puppies.

I suspect the dog seen was a cairn cross ... The heads are quite similar in ways.. 

http://www.thewesthighlandwhiteterrierclub.co.uk/index.php?CATEGORY=4-History

http://www.cairnterrier.org/history/

It may well have been a cairn with a westie trim, I always thought that the heads look quite different but I suppose it could just be the trim? I'm more familiar with westie's, don't see a lot of cairns round here nowadays and the ones I knew a few years ago always seemed to have smaller heads than a westie, and were more 'rough and ready' . It was very pretty anyway. The wheaten scottie is lovely, nicer than the black I think.
If I see the dog again I must ask what it is.

That is 100% incorrect the black and white on the bottles were never the same breed always a scottie and a westie.

I can't remember where I read that but its pretty obvious from the picture that they are different breeds :D lol. Probably someone looking at it after they drank the bottle dry ! :D:D