Okay you guys, I "thought" I was quite okay with the rules for claiming Junior Warrant points, when, this evening, at dog club, a friend told me she was the only dog of her breed present. She obviously got BOB, then went on to win the group, which was great, as he is only 12 months old. I said "great", you get 5 x SHCM points, shame there was not more there in the breed to get JW points.
She then told me that she and a friend had made an enquiry to the KC, and her friend has written communications from the KC, stating that even if only one dog is present, they can claim 1 point for the BOB for her JW???? I've looked at the form online tonight, and I still think they are wrong. I'll await my own written response from the KC, but here is what the claim forms states, so what do you guys think? 

"One point for the award of Best of Breed at an Open Show. Only to be claimed if no Junior Warrant Points were gained by that dog by winning a Breed Class or Classes"

then it says...

"Junior Warrant points CANNOT be claimed from classes or for AWARDS with less than THREE dogs of the breed present. In assessing the number of dogs present in each class, exhibitors may count a dog as having been present in a class provided it was entered in that class and was present in its first class for the breed at that show".

To me, it seems there is no question, there has to be at least three dogs present, to claim a point for BOB? What do you think?

Regards - Kay

I agree with you.  To me, the rules say that if you win (e.g.) the junior class by virtue of being the only one in that class then you don't get a point.  If no other entries in the breed, therefore you go BOB, then still no points.  But if there was another dog that won the Post Grad class and another one in Open, and you still went BOB, THEN you'd get a  point for BOB.

There have been a few cock-ups with the whole JW thing.  Someone in my breed claimed for one, and was awarded it!, when there was clearly only ones and twos present in the majority of classes.  Claims are very rarely checked it seems.

Debs

yes you got to have 3 dogs of the same breed to get our 1 piont for BOB it happen to me with brie she got BOB but lucky there was 3 dog so we wereable to claim that piont to go to her jw that was 7 years ago

That's my understanding. :-) I still think you should get a point for BOB if there are 3 in the challenge even if you got class points though, after all you have beaten another 2 dogs which were not previously beaten. :-(

Thanks folks.
My friend has said that her friend, has it in writing (which I've asked for a copy of) from the KC, that she can claim points, even if the only one there! (I think they may be getting confused with the ShCM).
I won't believe it unless I see something in writing from the KC, and even then, I will think whoever replied to her from the KC made a mistake, as the claim form to me is very straightforward.  It would be far too easy to gain a JW with no competition, then to be rewarded with a stud book number would not seem right?
I would hate to think she is "thinking" she is ammassing points, when in fact she is not.
I'll be sending my own enquiry off to the KC tomorrow, so, even though I know what the answer will be, I will let you know when I get a response. 
Kay

Hmm, she might well be confusing it with the ShCM, there you can get a point for BOB even if you're the only one. I think you might be right!

I thought the same but I did enquire to the KC as my bitch was getting BOB but only her or another dog present. I was able to claim 1 point for the BOB even though there were less than 3 dogs present.
I was awarded the JW.

I wonder if it would be worth my trying to claim BOB points as well as class points then if the KC is that muddled!!!

It doesn't look as though you can claim both. Either BoB or class points. :)

You would proberbly get away with it.

Just think of all those JW that have most likely been given yet arn't really deserved yet other people don't claim because they don't have enough.

The daftest rule re: JW is not being able to claim points from 2 shows held over a weekend.  In the days when you had to get a minimum of 10 open show points for a JW (The award truly meant something then!) Mia won 2 points on a Saturday, followed by a further 3 the day after - I could only claim one day's points!   Saying that she still won her JW with ease but it's a daft rule.

The 10 open show classes is the one that stopped my Jozi getting hers (and foot and mouth I suppose).  I did have 10 classes won, but only 6 of them had more than 3 exhibits. 

At one of these shows she won all her classes (including four variety/stakes) and RBOB, having beaten the whole entry of around 20 except the only male.

She won her first CC out of Junior at our breed club show, and wasn't shown until 10 months old. 

I managed to get the JW for her daughter as then it only needed 3 opens, but I didn't win a single point until she was in Junior and PG classes.  I think I got her first point at East of England when she was 10 months even though we had previously won BPIB, a Puppy stakes and a puppy group place at champ shows.

Both became champions.

Under the 10 open classes and 3 exhibits rules we never had a JW winner in the breed for several years.  We still only get about half the number of JW to champions since they relaxed it to 3 classes.

Brainless, We had many times with one of our red and whites winning BPIB and placing in the groups, beating many pups that day who had got JW points however due to a numerically small breed there were never enough in her class.

Yep, it is much harder in numericxally small breeds to get the JW thatn to get the dogs title, so any dog that gets one will probably win into the stud book anyway.  My lexi got her stud book number and Junior warrant on the same day as she won her classes and the RCC.

>The daftest rule re: JW is not being able to claim points from 2 shows held over a weekend.

I'm fairly sure this rule was a very short-lived one, in one of the many JW rule changes, and is no longer valid.

M.

(The award truly meant something then!)

Doesn't it now Christine ?  It is still highly regarded in our breed.

My breed isn't strong numerically but when the 10 point rule came about about 4  LM's got their JW's (And all are now titled!)   that way.  I entered Mia in clases up to PG in fact at one show I entered all 3 LM classes scheduled (PG, L & O) and won all 3 too! She also had to miss several shows because of foot & mouth so had that not happned she may have had her's earlier than 15 months old.  And she too won a RCC as a puppy so she had her Stud book number already so it wasn't the fact she needed a JW to get that!

When the rules changed a few Munsters have got there's but no great upsurge and those who have won it haven't really got anywhere near getting their titles.  And yes I do think it was more of a valuable award with the minimum 10 open showpoints, sorry, but Mia really earned her JW with her wins.

What are Munster registrations like?

We get about 20 litters bred a year, so that would normally give say 20 new pups in the ring in any year, with say 10 being in puppy at any one time, and the same in Junior, spread that around the country in a breed that is shown well into the older veteran classes, and has a tradition of the top dogs still being shown at Open shows, due to small number of other shows and you just don't get the numbers in the young classes even to post Graduate, and that includes championship shows.

We always have a very top heavy entry.

I would be very surprised if an exhibit that managed to win it's JW didn't go on to get it's title, unless the owners stopped showing or the dog had an injury.  Champions are usually 3 to 5 years old before being made up.

We have approx 100-120 LM pups registered each year, average litter size 8.

That is about what we have (last year less than 90).  Do you get a high proportiuon into the ring?

No.  Maybe 5-6 out of all those pups.  A lot of LM's still go to working homes predominantly.

I'm tempted but it's probably a bit late as he's now 5! You're right JG, you can only claim BOB points if no class points. It's just that my boy was only 3 points short, but he won about 5 or 6 BOBs including one at a Champ show during his JW age period, so if only you could count both....

Well, it seems I was WRONG (gasp, choke, can't believe I just said that).
After NOT getting a response from the KC regarding my enquiry about JW points, I rang them today, and I will receive this in writing over next few days.
You CAN claim a JW point for BOB (if no points claimed for the class), even if there are less than 3 dogs present.
Please spread this message as far and wide as you can, as it appears not a lot of people know it. Personally, I think it de-values the JW/Stud Book even further, but, there you go, they are the rules.

Kay

I wouldn't take anything as correct from a phone call from a staff member as the claim form clearly states a point can only be claimed for BOB providing there are at least 3 dogs of the breed present.

I agree, I will let you know if/when I get it in writing.
I personally don't agree with it, coz IMHO it devalues the JW/Stud Book still further, but, there you go, and a previous poster did say they were awarded their JW under those circumstances. And if others had previously thought they had missed out, why don't they claim back over!

Kay

Hi Barbara (Brainless) and others.

I received the confirmation letter from the KC today, dated 22.5.07. The letter is from Yvette Prosser, Senior Administrator - Wards, (Shows, Trial & Awards Department". Its states, and I quote:

"Thank you for your recent letter. If your dog is unable to claim points from the breed class as there are less than 3 dogs present, and goes on to win Best of Breed, then a point can be claimed. This is staed as rule 3 on the Junior Warrant claim form. "One point for the award of Best of Breed at an Open Show. Onlt to be claimed if no Junior Warrant Points were gained by that dog by wiining a Breed Class or Classes. 

There does NOT have to be 3 dogs present in Best of Breed.

I hope I have asssited in your enquiry.

Yours sincerely

Yvette Prosser.

So, even though I personally think it's wrong to claim a point when a dog has beaten absolutely no competition, the KC state you can, and have definately therefore de-valued the JW/Stud Book.

I totally agree with claiming a BOB point, when your dog has beaten at least 2 others, but not when there has been no competition.

Kay

This is just ludicrous, the KC never make there rules straight and understandable!!!

Now trying to explain this to my Dad who is adamant it's new....

Apparantly it's not new, ever since they allowed a point for BOB (don't know the date, 3 or 4 years ago I would imagine?), this regulation has been interpreted by the KC that way, only most people did not know that. Now if you ask a rep at a KC stand, they WILL tell you different, which is why I asked for a response in writing, coz I didn't believe then either. It just makes the JW far easier to get, and it shouldn't be an easy award to win.

Kay

Just looked up the rules printed on the claim form.

"3 One point for the award of Best of Breed at an Open Show. Only to be claimed if no Junior Warrant
Points were gained by that dog by winning a Breed Class or Classes.

4 Junior Warrant points cannot be claimed from classes or for awards with less than three dogs of the
breed present. In assessing the number of dogs present in each class, exhibitors may count a dog as
having been present in a class provided it was entered in that class and was present in its first class
for the breed at that Show."

It definately says that points cannot be claimed for classes or AWARDS with less than 3 dogs of the breed present.

I agree, as the JW is now a Stud Book entry I believe that it should not be that easy to get.

Yes, but it's not that easy in a minority breed.  To date there hasn't been one vallhund whose managed to get a JW under the new system.

We rarely get 3 per class at Championship shows let alone open shows, where we very very rarely get classes scheduled at all!

At Birmingham National the Junior dog won the Dog CC so gains his stud book number, but it is highly unlikely he will get a JW

Perhaps there ought to be more thought going into it by the KC - possibly different criteria for different stud book bands?

Kate

Much easier to get a Stud Book number in the usual way than to get a JW in my breed.

Since they relaxed the rules to only 3 points from Open showws we still rarely get more than one or two, when it was 10 classes we had one in five years or more.

Has never been an easy award to win even when there wasn't a minimum of dogs per class.

Yes, but it's not that easy in a minority breed.

Which makes those of us who won it with their youngsters, especially when it was the harder min. 10 points at open class rule, really proud we did it.  :D    

I totally agree Brainless, doesn't seem ambiguous at all does it? I put those regulations in my original post too.

When a person in the same breed said you could get points, I didn't believe her, so I wrote to the KC for proof. I expected them to agree with me, and was shocked on Monday when I rang (as had had no response), and also why I insisted upon a reply in writing also.

lol Kay

I can understand in the minority breeds how it is difficult, but there are different Stud Book bands so why can't there be different criteria for their JW's.