i was working at an open show this weekend which had gsd classes....well i have never seen ANYTHING like it!!!  the judge was chewing gum in the ring and addressing exhibitorss by 1st names and the dogs were being blatantly double handled....so much so that 1 handler stopped running his dog, shouted at his wife outside the ring to do it properly (the outside attraction that is) and then continued gaiting!!! Neither the judge nor the steward batted an eye lid!!!

I remember watching the GSDs at Belfast one year in amazement Sam. They were doing the very same, with people running round outside the ring, waving things and shouting :D I watched a couple of classes, I've never seen anything like it. I gave up when Limit dog went to a dog that the judge couldn't even go over without being eaten :rolleyes:  The bizarre thing is that they were in the grass ring outside the secretarys portacabin!

Ditto, I couldn't believe it first time I saw it either, it was years ago at working breeds Scotland, everyone was inside except the GSD's who were just outside. The double handling was unbelievable - must be a different set of rules for them as I too thought this was against the rules - huge classes too :D

Ah, that wouldn't have been at South West Working & Pastoral by any chance would it?

I don't think i've seen worse for quite a long time.

Unfortunatley this is happening all the time and with total disregard for any of the rules...I don't know why the KC don't take decisive action, but they don't!

IMO you need a very strong minded committee.  I think I'm right in saying that the secretary has the power to stop judging and insist that these breaches of regulations cease.  The judge certainly has that power.  It's all down to the officers and committee pulling together and enforcing the rules. 

Personally I detest the way these rules are blatently flouted - especially when it affects nearby rings and other exhibitors and exhibits.

Debs

KC can only do something if there is a complaint. Did you make one to the secretary, point it out to the judge?

One can only hope there was a field officer present :d

Debs

Does it not have to be someone in the class that complains???????  I don't know why I think that it is! :)

Gosh, sounds awful! I know once I stewarded for BSDs and was startled by the people throwing bait all round the ring, but sounds like GSDs are even more exciting!!!

Yeah when we double handle we do it discreetly. :D

Remember going to a show that was hosted by a mate at an equestrian centre.
All other dogs were shown in one hall, the GSD's were shown inthe place the horses get ready, With a 5' fence between them and the rest of the dogs.
Speaking to mate she said, thats because of all the double handling that goes on AS STANDARD in the GSD ring :o
And she had shown Irish setters, englishe cockers and briards for years!!!!!
lea :)

Personally I don't have a problem with double handling - as long as it does not interfere with other breeds . After all many breeds are artificially enhanced by being stacked and held , or by being presented on small red boxes - if head and expression are crucial to a breed and the impression of alertness is paramount to a dog's chances of success then why not double handle ? don't get me wrong - I am certainly not advocating the kind of wild rushing around and yelling that goes on in extreme cases - but using bait or presenting the dog so that it looks for someone outside of the ring are very commonly done in my breed (BSD) in fact the breed is now shown 'head on' - such is the importance placed on the dog being really on it's toes and with the desirable lively expression.

It's horses for courses - breed specific showing tecniques are many and varied - and owners will do what they can to ensure that their dog stands out from the rest !.

Yvonne

I can see what you are saying and I think you have a point there, Yvonne, but the trouble is it so very often does interfer with others people showing experience, much like the baiting :) and like you say they do get rather over excited, and I don't mean the dogs!, so probably should not be allowed on the grounds of health and safety or at least should only be permitted when the people attracting remain in one place.

if head and expression are crucial to a breed and the impression of alertness is paramount to a dog's chances of success then why not double handle ?

Because the outside attraction of an exhibit (as opposed to the handler holding a bit of bait for the dog to look at) is against KC rules and regs :)

or at least should only be permitted when the people attracting remain in one place.

It CANNOT be permitted as the rules stand at the present time.

Debs

Yes, but I think we are discussing whether that ought to be the rule :)

It CANNOT be permitted as the rules stand at the present time.

For the GSDs yes, as that is blatant, obvious and VERY offputting to other breeds shown nearby. But for the BSDs, it's a totally different story. And I doubt very much it ever could be stopped unless you did as in cats and prevented people from watching the judging. The usual scenario is that the owner does not handle the dog, somebody else does, and then the owner simply stands outside the ring, doing nothing at all but stand within view of the dog. Maybe move (walk) as the dog moves. Belgians are so attached to their owners almost all of them will keep looking out for their owner so it's just a case of standing in the right spot. (And with some, like my Ripley and some others I know, you cannot even do it, as if the dog spots you they pull the handler out of the ring to get to you!)

Have seen this time and time again!! :rolleyes:
One open show I was at, the judge stopped her judging and went to "have a word" with the outside double handlers!  There were great cheers at that one!!

But it is still almost universally used now as the most effective way of showing a BSD - when I first started in the breed ( over 20 years ago ) - we used to show them much more like Rotty's i.e sidways on with a loose lead and looking up at the handler or at a bit of bait - this is now rarely done for breed judges and particularly not for foreign breed experts who will penalise a dog who does not use it's ears to the maximum ...take a look round the breed ring at the next  show - all the most succesful kennels will be showing their dogs in the continental way - at the end on a lead facing out to someone who will be 'discretely' double handling - it works !- we have a breed that MUST use it's ears and reach of neck- very difficult unless it is really focussed on something more interesting than the handlers pocket or bait pouch.

Yvonne

I do disagree with breaking the rules, Yvonne.  As I say, I suspect there is a health and safety element to this one so I think if people want it amended the Breed Clubs should be lobbying the KC to reconsider the issues and consider if it can be modified safely but unless and until they do people really should comply.  If someone was injured I think it would be the show organiser that would take the can.

I think the main word here is "discreetly"!  When I was showing my Belgians I also showed the continental way too, but without someone on the outside of the ring, mainly because mine wouldn't focus on anyone else but me!  I have no objection to discreet and quiet double handling if that's what works for your dog.
What I object to is the shouting, whistling and throwing of toys around the GSD rings.

The difference being, BSD folks appear to double handle, WITHOUT interfering with other people/ upsetting dogs etc. A lot of GSD folk unfortunately DO INTEFERE with other people/ dogs. My elderly mother was almost knocked over by a few of them at Border Union, and alot of dogs were very upset by the goings on of the GSD "handlers".
These "handlers" were running around the rings, shouting, whistling, banging things, shaking things, bumping in to people etc, which upset a lot of people and puppies. They had no regard for anyone else, or anyone else' dogs. The officials at Border Union were NOT interested.

At one open show, a GSD "handler" snuck up behind me, hid behind me and my dogs (including one which was just a 7 month old pup). We didn't know he was there until he started shaking something noisy inside a metal tin, very loudly. My pup almost jumped out of her skin. I very loudly told him if he wanted to break KC rules, then go and do it elsewhere, he could have ruined my pup.

Most breed judges of GSD's double handle themselves, so are extremely unlikely to do anything if there is a complaint. If Show officials ask them to stop, they do, for a moment, then as soon as the show official leaves the area, they are at it again. At Southern Counties one year, I was so pleased to see one of the top all rounders STOP judging, and would not recommence until the double handling stopped. She stopped judging a total of 5 times.

If it didn't interfere with other folk/ dogs it would not bother me, but when people are so slef centred and inconsiderate of others, it really grates on me.

Rant over - goes to duck and hide ..........

Kay

I know for a fact that it IS possible to win and win big with a Belgian who isn't double handled.  The previous Terv bitch record holder (I think the record's been taken by another bitch now) was shown to the CC record with no double handling at all.  We're only talking 10 years ago!  The same owner had a grey bitch who was taught to be alert on command without anyone actually being there.  This was proven when the owner and I were accused of double handling at a show - the owner then faced the bitch at a blank wall with the same effect :d  All this double handling occured when people started seeing how Belgians were shown on the continent and a few decided that that's how they'd show the dogs here - regardless of KC rules!  Well we're not on the continent, we're in the UK - and our own KC's rules should be adhered to.  My own breed has to have ears erect and an alert expression too but no double handling occurs at all.

Double handling might be the most effective way to handle a Belgian but if you allow one rule to be broken, where does it end?  Are dying of coats, minor ops, etc things we should turn a blind eye to?  Hair extensions are now be used on a number of breeds to give body to a thin coat for goodness sake!

How can it be OK to openly break one rule and not others?

Debs

i was equally appalled at the personal chat and the gum chewing!!!! yes it was that show polipetl...you were there? you should have come & said hi!!

Yes, but for once didn't stay - didn't appreciate showing in a car park!!

Will remember to come say hi next time!

See my post higher up -how could anyone ever prove that the owner standing outside the ring, watching the judging, is double handling and not JUST watching the judging? :)

That's the problem Marianne, you can't prove it.  It does give the people that do it an unfair advantage though.  My husband stays at home with the dogs I'm not showing when I go to shows.  I handle my own dogs.  If I had a Belgian I'd be at a complete disadvantage.  Hardly a level playing field is it.

Debs

we have a breed that MUST use it's ears and reach of neck

But surely for a dog to warrant winning this should be a natural thing and not artificially enhanced

I know absolutely nothing about showing but through reading so many threads I am coming to the opinion that a good dog can be made to look much better by using a handler who knows the tricks of the trade and that a great dog can be overshadowed if the handler does not use the same tricks?

It would seem rather pointless to me if the dog with the best natural attributes was losing out to a lesser dog all because of the handling?

But surely for a dog to warrant winning this should be a natural thing and not artificially enhanced confused

It's not in any way artificial. But take a Belgian that normally has it's ears up at home to a show, and they may put them down simply because they are in an unfamiliar environment, surrounded by unfamiliar dogs and people, loud noises, whatever. It looks bad. Even the JUDGES throw things for the dogs to get the ears up. It doesn't mean there is anything wrong with the ears at all, quite the opposite, a Belgian should be able to fully use its ears and therefore move them in all directions, but a bit of insecurity or submission and down they go. (Very hard to photograph them because of this, because if you put them in a stay there's every chance they will put their ears down.) The judge needs to know they CAN go up and don't stay down all the time.  It's  much easier in a breed where ears don't have to be erect.

Harley, handling is not the same in every breed.  I have a breed which, handling-wise, is very similar to how Belgian Shepherds USED to be handled, i.e. baited and on a loose lead looking at the handler.  Pharaoh Hounds have to use their ears, have reach of neck, and have an alert expression.  All this can and should be achieved by the handler in the ring showing the dog some bait or a toy.  It's not unnatural for them to have all these attributes, but you are right in saying that a good handler can make the most of these features in the ring.  As long as it's done to KC rules and regs I see no problem with making the most of the dog you're showing.  I do, however, think that a 'great' dog would stand out in any company regardless of the handler - that's what makes them great ;)

Debs

My husband stays at home with the dogs I'm not showing when I go to shows.  I handle my own dogs.  If I had a Belgian I'd be at a complete disadvantage.  Hardly a level playing field is it.

I VERY much doubt it. There's no unfair advantage, it is just EASIER to get these dogs up on their toes and ears up if they have something to watch. (If they do not, the judge will have to do it, and they all try, throwing things in the air, even if they have to bend down and pick up some grass to chuck!)  But take the top exhibitor in Malinois, she ALWAYS handles her own dogs -even if she has several in the same class she will move and stand them herself and just have somebody else hold them for a while when she shows another, the great majority of the time. Has never stopped her from winning, such as getting the first ever breed Champion. :)

There's no unfair advantage, it is just EASIER to get these dogs up on their toes and ears up if they have something to watch.

Yes.  Like watching the handler, which wouldn't be contravening KC rules and regs :d

Debs

If they would stand still at ringside and not make any excessive noise (and not chew gum of course ;)) I would have less objection to that being made legitimate than baiting!

Well actually in MALIS most of us do Debs. :) But let's face it, if the dog is watching the HANDLER it's hard for the judge to see the face full on as they can't stand in front of the dog and see the head then! The handler will be in the way, and the dog will turn its head if the handler moves. And to see the ear carriage, to see if the ears are correctly set or not, the judge must view them from the front. Let's face it, other breeds have their heads held! Ours stand naturally.

When the dog is watching the handler the judge will stand behind the handler and look at the dog's expression over the handler's shoulder. No need for another person. :) And my breed is a free-standing one too - no stacking allowed. :)

Doesn't always work JG, especially if the judge is short LOL. :)

Periscope?  That should get their ears up.

WANT ONE!!!!!

We have sometimes joked about having a mouse (as in REAL one) on our shoulders or something.

I free stand my Goldens and just lean to one side as the judge approaches the front. I remember showing with Boxers in the next ring , there was so much liver and rubber toys being thrown around and bouncing into our ring our dogs were lunging across to pick up everything that bounced. Could have murdered someone that day!!

In that case you stand back away from the dog a bit and the judge can see.  I have the opposite problem when a judge makes silly noises and my Jozi flicks here ears in irritation as she is happily watching me waiting for her tit bit.

Oh come on Marianne LOL  It was never a problem before double handling started and it should be now.  The judges seem to cope very well seeing our Pharaohs' heads and expressions :d

Debs

SAme with the Elks and Finkies all free standing with erect ears and alert expressions.  though they do put their ears down in greeting.

"If I had a Belgian I'd be at a complete disadvantage." - yep have to say that you would ! - just as someone in Setters who did'nt stack would be at a disadvantage. BSD need to really 'sparkle' in the ring - it is not the same as free standing a Goldie or indeed an Elkhound the very nature of the breed is intensely alert and lively - we have moments to show this to advantage when showing and this method has proven to be the most effective way of doing so - and come on folks KC rules disallow any kind of coat preparation but how many of us use a touch of 'Kennel Club water' to enhance our dogs before going in the ring ? ;) - you only have to walk past the Westies to see all that chalk flying around not too mention  poodles with towering topknots held in place with lashings of (banned) lacquer ! - almost no breed is now shown 'au natural' either being 'improved ' by clever presentation or handling.

Yvonne

>almost no breed is now shown 'au natural'

Mine is! ;) A bath a couple of days before a show, no trimming anywhere, moved on a loose lead and free-standing. And has to look alert with ears cocked and a wagging tail. :)

Mine too!  WITH erect ears and an alert expression :d

Just because people in other breeds flout KC rules doesn't mean others should.  But if people are happy with using banned coat products and double handling then so be it.  I'd just hate to be in their position if a field officer came along or their dog was subjected to a coat test.

Debs

I still fail to see how an owner standing still outside the ring CAN be breaking rules! You'd HAVE to ban all viewing of judging and clear the halls like at cat shows -but who'd handle the dogs then LOL?!

ditto, and I only use H2O.  Only bath a few times a year.

Ditto:  We also have a breed that looks best when alert, which is why we don't stack, and often have fidgety dogs  

That's partly why my Henry never got made up - in Cavaliers you need a dog to be up on his toes and wagging madly, eyes sparkling, and although he does that sometimes, he also sometimes just stands there looking at me as if it's all very serious business and we're not to enjoy ourselves. If I try waving food or using silly voices he looks at me like I'm mad!

I don't understand what it is about this breed that required it. Nobody elses does :-D

I think it is a pantomine watching them. It would put me off right away.