Hello - we have two border terrier bitches (14 mths & 11mths) and two lakelandxborder terrier dogs (6mths - brothers). 
All live together very well - UNTIL tonight.  My husband has just gone to hospital to have his little finger sewn up.

The two brothers who normally live together fine one is higher in the pack than the other - fine no problems.  I saw one earlier (highest) have a go at the other in the garden but the other just kept turning the other cheek and didn't retaliate.

After tea we let them into the house - no different to any other night - excitement from all the terriers until suddenly the two brothers are fighting (this is so out of character).  What on earth do we do for the future! Will they recover from this?  Also just to add we have both boys booked in on Friday for a vasectomy. We have two young children aswell - luckily both in bed at this time.

Please, please help.  Thank you

Could either of the bitches be coming into season?

Possibly - with it been so out of character and so vicious, I am very shocked and don't know what to for the best. They are seperated at the minute - but I know they will fight again once put together because they have been seperated - so we need to take them for a walk together to get the harmony right again - THIS time.  In anybody's elses experience will having them nutered solve a 'territorial' problem for the future.  I have to state again this is very unusual.  One is higher in the pack and the other accepts - the other just chose to challenge and he was the one in control

It is very risky to have two dogs (and two bitches) as close together in age as you do, it's always best to space out the ages as much as possible and if littermates one of each sex is safest -and I'd imagine terriers would be even more of a risk than many other breeds.  6 months is still very young so maybe the neutering will make a difference as they will both be done -fingers crossed. :) However I have a dog that was neutered young as well and when the other male dogs started to pick on each other they did not view him any differently than the entire ones, as far as they were concerned he's another male, full stop.

The OP is having them vasectomised so will have no difference on their hormones anyway.  Can't really understand why you would have a general anaesthetic for a vasectomy when you are still going to have the same problems keeping them from pestering the bitches and getting in a right state you might as well go the whole hog

oops.. I missed that.. automatically assumed castration...

I assumed it was just accidentally using the wrong word Isabel as the word "neutering" was used later.

sorry.. I cant answer the neutering question.. its something I have never done, so no experience...

My boys all live quite happily together, but when a girl comes into season.. the 'niggling' begins.. but on the whole.. nothing like this...(2 of mine are way to lazy)

However, I do remember my fathers borders when a girl was in season... the whole house was in uproar.. and all 3 dogs had to be kept totally seperated until roughly 4 weeks after seasons finished... and only allowed together when they stopped trying to get to each other through the window... they were fine out walking together away from the girls.. but in an enclosed area (house) they simply wanted to fight for the girls, and nothing and no-one was going to stand in their way.. typical terrier fashion...

It may be that one or both of your girls are coming into season... my boys can get uppity a few weeks before anything shows...

Sorry - it is castration.  We did take advice from the vet when we brought each dog into the home and they did say that castration 'should' solve any problems that may occur - but obviuosly there will be troubles along the way in their lives - but castration should solve the main.  Tonight was just so very  very different and as I have said before very ficious - there was no letting go.

Conventional wisdom says that in this situation it's best to have the lower-ranking dog castrated and leave the other one entire to increase the difference in their status. Vasectomy will do nothing to alter their hormones; just (eventually) make them unable to sire puppies. All the testosterone and therefore male characteristics and urges will remain.

Conventional wisdom says that in this situation it's best to have the lower-ranking dog castrated and leave the other one entire to increase the difference in their status.

I tried that once. Dandy, Golden was 2 years old when he took a dislike to Rufus, then 3 years old Cavalier, so I had Rufus neutered. It's now 9 years later and Dandy still hates Rufus as much. To him Rufus being neutered made no difference as he'd made his mind up he hated him, unfortunately. (Rufus never fought back either, not once did he try to defend himself, just gave up.)

If only dogs read the books! :D

Wouldn't life be easy! :D

This  is the point - they don't actullay hate each other - or haven't up until tonight- they have had a few grumbles (only in play - other backs down etc) - but nothing, nothing like tonight.  and they are very unsettled that the other is not here.

If you were planning on having at least one of them castrated anyway I'd go ahead and have the lower-ranking one castrated as planned, and see if that helps. If it does, great (though there'll still be the problem of what to do when the bitches are in season); if it doesn't then you could have the other one castrated too as you originally planned. What you can't do is change your mind about castration after it's been done! :D

Thanks for your reply - we are not interested in breeding - just a happy household.  The vet advised that when we have both dogs castrated they will not have an intrest in the bitches when  in season and also territory - just normal grumbles etc. Is this correct or is what we have experienced tonight going to be a continuing problem?

Castrated dogs can still have 'urges', and a surprisingly large number can still mate and tie with in-season bitches. The only certain effect is that, in time (a couple of months on average, but can be longer) they become sterile and can no longer sire litters. Sometimes castration has the unfortunate (for the dog!) side-effect of making him smell (to other dogs) like a bitch, and he can then suffer from unwanted attentions.

Casey, have a look on the search under castration. Also google it, then make up your mind before rushing them to the vet. At the moment you are understandedly feeling raw and vunerable. Let the dust settle, have a drink and a cuddle with the dogs. I promise it'll all seem a lot clearer in the morning. Hope OH is not suffering to much.....what a man!

Here I go again. Six months is way to young to castrate and for all the reasons posted before.

If it were me with this problem, I would be getting the bitches done instead if you don't intend to breed. All my money would be on the bitches coming into season right now as other posters have already said, which is causing the upsets and not the boys just being boys. Vets love the knife I'm afraid when it comes to dogs. Anyone would think dogs are the ones that whelp, and that their male hormones are something to be feared and not reveared?

Thing is up until now they have been puppies, they are now becomng adolescents and status will start to matter.

Terriers are naturally reactive and fights can blow up in a second.

Why did you decide to ahve four dogs within six months of age?  Not only will the next two years be very hard work with training and management, but sadly at the end of their lives you will ahve all the Vets bills and possibley the sadness of loosing them all within a short space of time?

Personally I would rehome one of each sex.  They are young and should adjust to new homes easily.  It can't be easy to give 4 young dogs the one on one time and training they need. 

My two boys were best friends till they were around 8 months old then they started having the most tremendous fights, they were generally about absolutely nothing :(  I had one neutered at 18months but it didn't help at all and a year later I had the other one done. It took about 4 - 6 months after that for them to calm down but now all is peaceful :)  They are back to being the best of friends and sleeping cuddled up on the sofa together.

Having both neutered worked for me and mine, although it may also have been an age thing that they simply grew out of.

Edited to say my boys are still interested in in-season bitches but only mildly so. Before they were done they were a nightmare, howling and refusing to eat when one of the girls was in season.

had my brother in law come round earlier to help me while my husband was at hospital.  We put both boys on leads and kept girls inside. They obviosly tried to fight - but after strong words and walking around the garden - nothing.  we brought the girls into the garden - intrested but fine.  we brought them into the house and they settled.  then when one of the boys needed a wee i took him outside - brought him back in - the other attacked (still on leads).  deep down i know

I sincerely don't know anyone with experience of keeping a number of dogs together, who would tell you that having 4 dogs within 8 months of age of each other, would be "just a happy household".  Sorry. :(

Oh dear Casey, I am sorry. Your going to have to make a choice arn't you? How do you feel about re-home for one of the boys as they are so young? Is there some one like your brother in law that would be happy to take one? A hard thing to do I know, but an option. Good luck and keep us posted.

We had to rehome a collie a few years ago, there was a big difference in the dogs ages but as the collie matured, from about 9 months on, the fights just got worse and worse and ended when my daughter got in the way and was bitten. We rehomed the Collie (back to his breeder) as we had had the older dog much longer but it made me wary of ever keeping two entire dogs together again. We have 2 spayed bitches now and they are great together, and the dog who had all the fights was fine with them although by that time he had been castrated for health reasons and was about 11 so didn't really bother with them much. If you were intending to have them castrated anyway then you could probably go ahead and try it to see if it makes a difference, but I would prepare myself for having to rehome one if things don't settle, its miserable living with dogs you can't trust together. :(

Link to info re castration questions:

http://www.gsdhelpline.com/castration.htm

Hope it helps.

Lindsay
x

I too think that rehoming is your only solution, I have three & sometimes four entire males in the same household & at one time we had 10 GSDs, one X breed & two BCs consisting of three entire bitches, one spayed bitch & the rest entire dogs including three stud dogs & yes they all lived in the house. The males were fine, one of the entire bitches had a problem with the spayed bitch(this was rooted in the GSDs time in quarantine) but none were very close together with about a year in between them.  Your problems stem from your dogs being too close together in age & young & also the entire bitches can cause friction between immature males

Castration is not a fix it all solution sadly(as a friend with a Dobermann found out-her then vet is a great believer in castration curing agression !)

Hi everyone and thanks for your replies - Thankfully the breeder has taken one of them back and when I did take him back his mother and sister where there which made the whole process a little easier.  He is a farmer and i am hoping he will keep him and let him work like his mother and sister - but I will stay in touch with him to find out what does happen.  thanks again xx

Well done for being strong enough to make such a brave decision. I'm sure it can't have been easy, but definitely the best thing for all concerned. Good luck. :)

I echo JG -difficult decision but I'm sure in the long run the best one, well done, I know it can't have been easy.

thank you - very much   - not an easy one to make  - but like you say the right one.  at least we can stay in touch. xx

Just to echo the other replies - it was a difficult but brave decision and can only make life easier and better for all of you :)

I hope your other dogs are much happier now, and I'm sure the one you had to rehome will be too. I know how hard it is to do but you have done the right thing for all concerned I'm sure. Good luck with your puppy
M

Well done. Good call