Hi

I saw a advert for Jack Russel pups that were born with a short tails. The add says a vets certificate will be given as proof. They are short, legged and short coated and the photo does look like JRs. Doesnt show the tail though

I was wondering how this could be done. Clever breeding?? or am I being gullable!!

Wendy

Unless a gene from a naturally bob-tailed breed (such as corgis) has been introduced into a crossbred terrier like the short-legged jack russell then they've been docked. And if they were born after 6th April this year they were probably docked illegally.

Lets face it JG, Jack Russels have been crossed with many things in the past I'm sure they have the bob-tail gene in the lines somewhere. 

Or knowing people today it it a JR X corgi they are selling as "pure" JR!!!!

There are few lines of corgi left with natural bobs, and they don't breed true either so there will always be some born with long tails, so a whole litter of JR's even if they have had bob tail added somewhere is just not going to happen.

Hi

You have all said what I was thinking. I am also wondering if the tails are the correct lenght as a JRS tail should be about 4 inches long. I can imagine that is something difficult to breed in especially when the likes of Corgis are tail less. There is a email on the add I was tempted to mail them and ask but always feel that is a bit cheeky when you have no intentions of buying. I have to say though if it is true i would be delighted and would like a pup. I love my russels docked and this would be the way around it but I dont see it somehow

Wendy

Actually there are a good few lines of Pembrokeshire Corgis which are natural bobs & I know that the Queen seeks out natural bob sires for any litters she breeds(this comes from a breeder whose natural bobs she has used more than once) They do breed true depending on how they are bred. Of course pre WWII all Pembrokeshire Corgis were natural bobs it was the introduction post war of Cardigan Corgi blood that resulted in the tails

I never realised that until 1934 all corgis were classified as the same breed, both Pembrokes and Cardigans, and the two varieties were interbred.

The Pembrokes were the natural bobs & the Cardigans had the tails pre war plus the Cardis were always a bit bigger that the Pembrokes-the Cardis also have different colours !(the two breeds were only one breed for the KC of course The breeders in Pembrokeshire & Cardiganshire(sp)kept true to their own breed ;-) not using the other breed until after the war for a very short period of time & that was only the Pembrokeshire breeders-this I was told by a pre war breeder of Cardiganshire Corgis ! )

I was astonished to find this on a site about the history of the Corgi breeds:
" When researching some pedigrees back to the 1920's and 1930's, it is interesting to find that some dogs whose names appear as both Pembroke and Cardigan.  One Pembroke, that was the "get" of both Corgi types, won at an early Cardiff show as a Pembroke, while his litter sister won at the same show as a Cardigan."

Not entirely dissimilar to Cavaliers and King Charles. :)

LOL it wasn't unusual from the outset of the KC to find dogs whose names changed frequently as did their breed !! ;-)

dont know............. but i am sure that all my lakeland pups will have very naturally short tails

What if mum nipped them off at birth (tongue firmly in cheek).  Really how does anyone prove if a pup was born with or without a tail.  The Vet can only go on what they are told as unless they delivered the whelps they won't know that the breeder didn't dock them before taking them to the vet.

I told my vet my breed are docked or born with no tail and I didn't know which mine were ... so when my vet inspected the dog then decided my dog was most likely naturally born with no tail...but I'm quite sure he is docked.

I'm sure that yours will Sam - you've been breeding for it for a while now! ;) :D

I grew up with a tailless Pembroke Corgi and also owned a naturally tailless cat (short 'bob' tail) both had a pad of fat/muscle over the end of the bone in their 'tail' which I've never seen in a docked dog ;)  it didn't feel 'boney' at all :)

Totally possible - but they probably aren't pure JRT's.

There is a vallhund owner who also has JRT's - she's used her dog on several of her jack bitches to see if she can introduce a no tail gene with some success.

There are about 40% of all vallhunds born in the UK with short tails - either true bob, short stump or invert.

Kate

Yes but would the whole litter be like that.  I think Bruce Cattanagh's experiments showed that it wouldn't be 100%, or maybe that was just with the mixed parentage, and not bob to bob????

no, not normally - around half max - and only if you've used a stump parent to a full tailed parent.  full tail to full tail even when they back onto stump usually only produces full tail.

stump to stump you can get all stump pups in a litter but the litters are normally significantly smaller and there is some suggestion that this is because stump to stump produces a lethal tail gene which aborts/absorbs the pups before birth.

If you go to Dr Bruce Cattanach's website he has all the articles he published
regarding the bobtails, expectations & results on there.

Here's one of the pages that you might find interesting
http://www.steynmere.com/ARTICLES6.html

"the only undesirable feature of the bob-tail condition is that it will not breed true. There will always be a 25% expectation of long tailed pups appearing"

Yes it is as I remember 25% long tails een in bob to bob matings.

I wonder if now that docking is here that there will be more interest in BC's work?

i know someone who has one of his progeny...have to say it looks a bit odd!! not quite right shape, neck especially, for a boxer.

Do you know what generation of bobtail it is? i.e 5th, 6th, 7th ?

I personally know quite a few and they are all quite acceptable as
Boxers, not odd at all. Some even better than some Boxers I've judged..