I can't find where rules for heelwork might be listed, I've searched here and on Obedience UK. At a companion show last weekend I was told I was being docked huge amounts on my heelwork because although my Cavalier was at a constant distance, she wasn't working right onto my leg. I'm sure in the past I've seen comments that heelwork should be performed in a 'natural manner' because people have queried whether the way BCs work is natural. My girl was working further away than usual admittedly, but she likes to be able to look up at me, and I'm afraid I might stand on her fluffy feet if she worked as close as a BC! :-D I don't think you should expect a small dog like a Cav to work that close, as long as they remain at a constant distance. I've never been docked purely because of distance before, only if she's been weaving closer and further a bit. :-(

That's a complaint that's been voiced many times over many years, I'm afraid. :( I have a book about obedience (The Obedient Dog by John Holmes) published in 1975 where he points out that having a dog wrapped around your leg contravenes the 'working in a natural manner' clause, but nothing's been done about it.

I remember a letter in Dog World many years ago from a woman who tried doing obedience with her Pembroke corgi, but was told by judges that although she did well the dog "didn't work like a collie, so couldn't get top marks". :rolleyes: It seems if you want to do obedience, there's only one breed ... :(

Heel work both on & off lead is described as follows for the dog in the explanatory notes for Obedience

...The dogs shoulder should be approximately level with & reasonably close to the handlers leg at all times when the handler is walking. On command to turn, the handler should turn smartly in the direction indicated and the dog should keep its position at the handler's side..................

Few dogs are wrapped aropund the handler's left leg any more, but a lot of handlers teach a very high head carriage

Marie Carter works her dogs in obedience in the higher classes & they are Pembrokeshire Corgis. She also does training sessions for handlers of small dogs. You might want to go on one of Maria's training days/weekends Lucy she is a lovely lady & a brilliant trainer of dogs & people, a bit late for the one on the link but she will be doing others & Kate works a lovely Ruby boy in obedience

Not all judges are breed blind & don't forget this year's Cruft's Obedience Champion was a BSD(Terv) & has been won by Poodles, X breeds etc in the recent past, there have also been a Yorkshire Terrier that qualified for the Obedience Championships, as well a minature poodle(she was an Ob Champion). There are some super little dogs working in obedience & doing quite well. For example there is a minature LH Dachshund that has won out of Novice(Barney won under me last year & he isn't glued to Vicky's leg but works as laid down in the KC directives, there are Parson Russell Terriers & Schipps also doing quite well too

To non-specialists, the wording that the dog should be working in a "happy, natural manner" would involve it looking where it was going ... ;)

Also different breeds move in a different natural manner, so the high head carrigae used by many is very un natural.  Also big dogs at human speed are likely to roll, so appearing to come on and off the leg.  Though a good judge should be able to recognise this I hope.

>To non-specialists, the wording that the dog should be working in a "happy, natural manner" would involve it looking where it was going ...

So you mean with my setter they shoudln't be out ahead of me setting the birds up? 

And should the dallies be running between your legs treating it like a carriage :P :D

>So you mean with my setter they shoudln't be out ahead of me setting the birds up?

Not during competitive heelwork - the rules don't say so! :p There's a time and a place for everything!

I've never seen collies rounding up sheep whilst staring up into the sky! ;) And no, this isn't a collie-bash; they're only doing what they've been taught. It's just a wonder at why they're taught something that seems to fly in the face of the written rules. :)

the main instruction is for dog & handler to be working as a team, & in my opinion in a team  dog & handler work together, i look ato my dog he looks at me! Is that not Natural???????
Dogs are NOT looking at the sky they are watching their handler,

does this look "unnatural"?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v682/michflynn/99f923a1.jpg

i think it shows a happy team, working in harmony, naturally, but as a team! :)

Fully agree Michelle!! :)

Personally I think it looks very awkward, with neither looking where they're going! ;) See the difference? :)

isnt that just going for a stroll? where is the connection between the dog & handler in that pic?
competion HW isnt about seeing the scenery irs about accuracy & team work, but you WILL get marked for not  going in a straight line or veering off course, or not turning square on the spot

That pic's taken from this site - they specialise in dog obedience training. ;) Look at the woman with the labrador - that's walking at heel nicely, and that would be what I'd aim for. This could be the reason that I have no interest in taking part in competition obedience! :D

Hm if the dog is truly obedient she shouldn't be having to watch the dog ! she should be looking where they are going

You are confusing the competition heelwork with taking the dog for a walk

Obedience is the canine equivalent of Horse dressage

I had a BC who naturally laid on I didn't work him in obedience because I don't like don't that laid on & consider it a fault.  Rjj is a naturally straight working dog, he doesn't look at me at all but keeps pretty close.

>if the dog is truly obedient she shouldn't be having to watch the dog ! she should be looking where they are going

I agree - so why is the lady in Michelle's picture looking at the ground?

To an 'outsider' a dog would be moving in 'a natural manner' when it makes no difference to its physical position whether the handler is there or not. So in all the images, take away the handler and look at the position of the dog, and see what looks most 'natural'. :)

I agree - so why is the lady in Michelle's picture looking at the ground? confused


That's Michelle herself! :) And I'd bet it's just a coincidence in that pic and not the way she always is. When you start training it will involve a lot of looking down as it is SO hard to get your footwork right and I for one find that much harder than getting the dog right LOL. I could never have been a dancer.:rolleyes: When you compete you should look straight ahead to where you're going.

ummm...im looking at the dog,thats how i work in the ring!!!!!o look at him,he looks at me, thats where we stay hopefully!!!!

Sorry Michelle it was meant to defend you not criticise you. :)

But then you arent allowing for Team work        G (c)1:"prime consideration is given to judging the dog & handler as a team"

Urm that Labrador ISN'T walking to heel at all!

For gundog working as long as the dog's within a yard of the handler - and obviously not touching you because nobody wants a wet, muddy dog rubbing against their legs! - then that's 'walking at heel'. :) The GSD in the first picture is a little too far forward for my taste, but it's certainly walking in a 'natural' manner. :)

but we arent talking about gundog work, &this is competition obedience, it isnt as easy as walking a dog around a park. that site isnt about comp ob its about pet obedience

This, to a non-specialist, looks like a better dog position, although sadly neither are looking where they're going!

It might be a better/natural position albeit on the wrong side of the handler, but how can the handler maintain such an unnatural arm position whilst walking their dog ? & the dog is wearing a harness !!

Perhaps this is a better photograph of a dog & handler doing good heelwork

Don't forget that in Obedience in the higher classes you get marked for body signals to the dog & lots of people tend to have their head tilted down but are still looking ahead with their eyes so they don't get marked for moving their head down as they approach a turn or the ropes

One of the best examples of a handler & dog in perfect tune & partnership is Mary Ray & her young bitch(Foxie I think)haven't got a photo as she was working in my class last year, dog head slightly up watching Mary & Mary looking straight ahead, knowing her dog was in the correct position. She even knew where I had had to mark them in the heelwork such is their bond !(& no she didn't win)

are you taking the ****?????????????

Me

no not you!!!!

Do you actually want the rules changed so the dog is on the other side??

How do either of us know that the picture hasn't been reversed? ;)

I personally think a dog is better balanced if they can 'perform' on either side. It's not that long ago that in showing you did twice round the ring one way then twice round the other way, so the dog had to move equally well on both sides. :)

That's showing, not obedience! And many do switch sides when doing an up and down, so have the dog on one side going down and on the other going back up the ring. :) I can't even walk a dog on my right side, it's the same feeling you get when trying to write with your left hand if right handed. :)

Absolutely right. Because the dog must always be between handler and judge then the dog has to change sides when moving to and fro. So dogs need to be taught to move freely on either side. :)

>It's not that long ago that in showing you did twice round the ring one way then twice round the other way, so the dog had to move equally well on both sides. 

I've only been showing dogs since 1959 & never been asked to do that !! My show dogs will move on left or right but I have never been told/asked to move any dog clockwise & anticlockwise ! I've shown all sorts of breeds & done Junior Handling with many more ! From Chihuahua's to Great Dnaes(including Dalmatians BTW)

I started showing in 1975 when it was common practice in dals, and lasted well into the 80s; the 'old guard' of breed specialists still ask it occasionally, even when judging overseas. It startles many people! :D :D

I have a disabled Friend and she always worked her dogs on the opposite side.

It's well known in animal and human medicine that over-exercising one side of the body will cause longterm damage. Both sides should be given the same emphasis. :)

the lab is walking to heel NOT doing obedience HW there is a difference!!!!

I wouldn't call that 'Harmony and working as a team'. 

For competitive obedience you need total commitment and trust from your dog, he doesn't need to look where he is going in heelwork, he trusts you and is giving 100% commitment to the exercise, tuned into you so any turn or signal is executed with you. It is a great feeling when you get that commitment and trust from your dog.

On other exercises he is on his own, sendaway and scent is an example, he has to be taught correctly, but once he is sent out he makes his own decisions.

This gives a balance to completing an obedience round by both of you.

Off topic but the Flynnmiester looks very scrummy there Mish

Off topic but the Flynnmiester looks very scrummy there ;-) ;-) ;-) His Daddy will be very proud of him watching from the Bridge

thanks

i wouldnt have docked you if it was resonably close & remained there.
AAny dog Collie or not that Crabs, Leans on or impedes will get marked, as will any dog that has a inconsisrant position, or one that works close & then goes wide.

i hope this thread isnt going to Turn into a collie Bashing one, some of us work hard to get happy motivated drivey work, that is straight.

Btw the last dog to win the last  beginneres class i judged was a dalmation!!!

ALL breeds are judged against the judges idea of perfection

Oh no, I don't want to bash collies, I think they are so clever and beautiful too! I just objected to the judge saying my dog should work right on my leg when I was sure I'd heard the 'natural manner' clause mentioned. Judges decision is final of course, but now I can quietly smirk that I was right! Like I say, she was working further away than normal last weekend, I will keep working to get her closer. :-)

that was a incorrect thing for they judge to say, id make a note not to enter under them in future. Or maybe un that judges opionion she was not "resonably close", as that term will vary from dog to dog!!!! but as it was a companion show maybe they were just getting their judging experince?

My friend used to work Border terriers, both won out of novice & working A & B, the younger won had places in B.
Spaniels on the whole do tend to work a little wide, sort of leaning out to look up at their handler whereas collies tend to lean in!

Please dont let this stop you competing youll find some jusges that appreciate yor dog eventually. are you doing any open shows this year?

I'm guessing obedience has "breed blind" judges....Same as showing!

some but not many! also there are some who will ALWAYS favour a GSD or a alternative breed over a collie so it works both ways. Ar the end of the day a dog still has to do all the exercises to win ,whatever breed it is!

I'm talking about all breeds.  Therefore some will go for collie collie collie, others will go for maybe a smaller dog over a bigger dog.  "breed blind" isn't just "collie blind" ;) :) 

Moonmaiden will be the best person to comment here, but I guess you can always argue what is  natural manner or not. My Malinios Ripley glues herself to my leg whether I want her to or not, (i.e. she will even do it during a normal walk, without any command) and indeed one of her pups does the same and his owner is going back to live in the US so she is having to attempt to train him to NOT be wrapped around her leg as it would lose her marks there -it was never taught to him, it came naturally.

In the class I go to (competitive obedience) the aim for all is to get the position you see at Crufts. There's me with a Mali, one BC, one Tibetan Terrier, one GSD/Collie cross and a Staffie cross.

Ellie's like that, in fact she often does more perfect offlead heelwork in the park than when asked to! I am doing the Newmarket open show as it has breed as well, and my trainer at club has said there is one in Enfield in September, which is where I live, so I'll do that too. Don't worry, this showing stuff is far too addictive to give up just from one judge. I also love showing off a Cavalier that can retrieve! Forgot to add that the other judge (I generally do 2 at the companion shows) didn't share her colleague's opinion and we came 6th - pity the rosettes only went to 5th, ha ha! :-)

oh im not doing newmarket. are you doing any at Slough?potters Bar? maidenhead?