there has been lots in the dog papers over the last few weeks on the subject of culling large litters - one prominant features writer has resigned due to the opposition to her views. I wondered what folk on here thought ...I'm talking about the practise of culling newborn pups because there are too many of the 'wrong' sex or have the wrong markings - not because there is anthing wrong healthwise.

There seems to be two camps on this issue - one that believes that as the breeder you are responsible for bringing the pups into the world and therefore have a duty to raise them all - the other that has a more 'stockmans' view and looks at the practicalities of raising such large litters - and the wear and tear on the bitch.

Where do you stand on this and have you ever culled ?

Yvonne

I've always been prepared to cull an over-large litter (my breed is renowned for large litters) but luckily have never had more than 10 in a litter, pretty well-balanced for sexes, and have never had to.

>one that believes that as the breeder you are responsible for bringing the pups into the world and therefore have a duty to raise them all - the other that has a more 'stockmans' view and looks at the practicalities of raising such large litters - and the wear and tear on the bitch.

I'd be pretty ashamed of a breeder that didn't have a stockman's view. It's the puppy-farmers who want to raise everything they can, regardless of the likelihood of good, permanent homes and the health of the bitch. They'd lose too much profit. JMO.

Oh well I must be a puppy farmer then!  

ditto JG

Me too! I would only humanly PTS a puppy that was very ill or deformed.
I do know of ONE breeder that does Cull, and this does not change my opinion of her, but I just would never do it unless it was a medical reason too.

I don't and know I never could, no matter what size the litter. As a breeder it would have been my choice to have the litter in the first place and I would consider it my responsibility to do all I could to care for all of them, be it 2 or 22. If they were all healthy there is no way I could kill any just to reduce numbers and make life easier. I know a large litter would be harder work and, I'm sure, need supplementing and I think that would be the least I could do for them as it was my choice to bring them into the world.

I totally agree with you Pedlee what you said is just how i feel about it as you do I could never never cull a litter of pups I would be brocken hearted if i did that and i would never breed again sorry but it is just how i feel about it

In my breed it was common practice throughout the 70's & 80's to cull the brown & white pups (Not correct colour) or overly large litters dominated by males.   As there seems to be a ready market for the brown & white Munsters now, they are raised as well and I haven't heard of a culled litter in ages.

My first litter was 14 born, 12 live (7 bitches & 5 dogs) and even my vet asked if I wanted some PTS to take the strain off of Asti.    As all were the same size at birth it & all black & white it would've been a very difficult decision - which I opted  not to take - instead I just started weaning them at 2 weeks as opposed to 3 weeks.   The litter certainly didn't suffer and I still have one of the 'pups' now - aged 12 & half!

I would never cull a puppy. If by any chance I had a large litter than I would have to put myself out even more than I do and help the bitch my supplementing the puppies. I feel it is my duty to help the bitch at all times. I do not believe that it is necessary to cull a healthy litter and the only reason that I would have a puppy put to sleep would be if the puppy was severely disabled in some way and even then I would have to think long and hard about it. I won't begin to go into the story behind the story in the press.!

Well done to you Christine!

"Where do you stand on this and have you ever culled ?" Yvonne ?

I'm a great believer in Mother Nature's intervention.  If a puppy is small but feisty it will survive (I've had this) whereas I had to have a bigger sister (From my last litter) PTS after a week old as she just didn't seem to want to be there.    And hand on heart, if we are breeding to improve the conformation of a breed, who can honestly say at a day old they are expert enough to see the conformation of a puppy and say whether it's a likely winner or not?

I have never culled and I don't think I ever would but it interests me the way that attitudes are shifting - perhaps because  huge kennels with professional kennel men are things of the past  and therefore most breeds are in the hands of the small scale breed enthusiast and their dogs are viewed as pets first and foremost rather than  as breeding stock - so all pups are raised irrespective of quality etc.

Will this have a detrimental effect on breeds ? or is the nature of our hobby simply changing with the times? - is the old way of viewing dogs now seen as too harsh or are we all now belonging to the 'fluffy bunny' brigade where it is seen as 'wrong' to keep dogs permanently kenneled and to rehome unsuccessful or old breeding 'stock'..........and to cull pups that do not conform to the breed standard.

Yvonne

Interesting point, Yvonne :) If applied to humans then we are definitely going down the 'fluffy bunny' route :) Should we be consistent and treat dogs the way that we treat humans or should we recognise that they are, after all, 'only' dogs and should apply much harsher rules

I've no idea - perhaps I should consider the point for both humans and dogs :)

Daisy

>There seems to be two camps on this issue - one that believes that as the breeder you are responsible for bringing the pups into the world and therefore have a duty to raise them all - the other that has a more 'stockmans' view and looks at the practicalities of raising such large litters - and the wear and tear on the bitch.

I think there is a third camp, the one that sees an issue of whether large numbers of totally suitable homes are likely to be available all at once in, what are often breeds with very specific needs. 
It's tough and it's enough to make me steer clear of any breed that is likely to fall into this area but I would not critisise any devotees of a breed that consider it necessary as I don't see any suffering involved apart from the breeders.
I don't, however, think mismarks that are not health linked should be culled from moderate or small litters and I think, generally, these days they are not.  I think endorsements may have helped in that area.

That third camp is a very valid one. An acquaintance of mine had a litter of dobermanns at about the time I had one of my dal litters. At 15 weeks she still had 9 male pups unsold, getting bigger and bigger and more unsaleable by the day (people usually only want 'baby' puppies). As using breed rescue would have been unethical in this situation (as we all know, breeders must take responsibility for the pups they bring into the world), she ended up having to put to sleep the 7 pups that hadn't sold by 5 months. It broke her heart, and she wished she culled out some of the excess male pups at birth.

In all the local pet stores round here there's a desperate advertisement about male puppies of a certain giant breed, KC registered and not over-priced, born just before Christmas. Goodness knows what will happen to them.

I have never culled, and hope I will never be in the position to need to as I breed so rarely, although would obviously not hesitate to have any puppy with serious health issues PTS. I can see all sides of the argument, she said, sitting squarely on the fence.

Regarding the column which I believe started the AR-W issues that caused her to resign, she talked about a Rottweiler puppy with many issues which rescue have gone to great lengths to get to a decent level of health, and I fully agreed with her that they had enough healthy dogs without homes to concentrate on, and should probably have let that one go.

Interesting situations with Dane puppies at the moment - the market is flooded with MANY many litters unsold, with breeders with multiple puppies left at 5 months old and worse. I hate to think what will happen to some of those poor puppies.

M.

I would never cull anything healthy, I agree on not putting a strain on your bitch with large litters, I've always been prepared to hand rear if my bitch had an oversized litter and infact have done so though not from birth but from two weeks.

I would always have many people to hand to help with rearing an extra large litter, (especially through the night shift) my bitch and I, (and family, friends) would share, breeding should always include this scenario, I was thrown into it once and I would never not be prepared again, I would even raise a litter if my bitch were to die in whelp.

>In all the local pet stores round here there's a desperate advertisement about male puppies of a certain giant breed, KC registered and not over-priced, born just before Christmas. Goodness knows what will happen to them.

I suppose the only slight ray of light in this situation is that hopefully they'll think harder before doing it again.

M.

that hopefully they'll think harder before doing it again.

That's always my hope Lily, which is why I will never help people breeding from their pet quality bitch or recommend that anyone buys a puppy from such a litter. :(

You have missed the most important point.  Are there enough good homes out there for the number of pups you have, and will you be in a position to assure the future of that many should the homes not be forthcoming or pups need re-homing.

I know someone in a large sight hound breed who told me she breeds once every five years to an order book.  Any excess pups are put to sleep at birth leaving usually around five when they start out with over 10.

There is no demand for Pets in this breed and they are a connoisseurs breed.

Even then she had to take back a male, which caused her problems as he was not well socialised and dog aggressive.

This is taking your responsibilities for the individual pups and the breed seriously, not hoping someone else will pick up the pieces, or hoping it will all be alright.

I have Friends in a large guarding breeds.  They usually have large litter and ae easily sold.  I couldn't imagine the responsibility of finding the right sort of people for that kind of puppy, and what the consequences could be if it goes wrong.  Often when it does go wrong the pups are past rehabilitation, and have to be put to sleep.

Edited to add:

I see Isabel has raised this point further down.

Personally I don't think anyone should be breeding a breed which has 10+ puppies without definite bookings for at least 6 of the forthcoming puppies.   Maybe it's more a case of too many puppies being born on whim rather than breeding to fulfill long standing bookings then culling would not need to be an option only a necessity for a weak puppy.

Wouldn't there then be a risk of narrowing the gene pool to a dangerous level? One needs to take a longterm view, rather than simply focus on the immediate picture. 5 puppies to keep the gene pool wide is better for the good of the breed than none.

But how would/could you chose 5 puppies if say 14 were born of all a similar weight and all apparently healthy?

With great difficulty I would imagine but I am not sure that such a large litter would be generally that even.

Well I'm very lucky as I am always oversubscribed for my litters, I have to turn people away, maybe more should be this way?

Count your blessings. :) You are indeed fortunate, because your breed doesn't seem to be the easiest to home. The only one that lived in this village was rehomed because he was too hyper to be a pet.

What happens if all the litter turn out to be the same sex, and a very large litter, you are then bound to have some pups without homes before they are born.  I tend to not take any bookings after 3 of each sex, as i HATE DISAPPOINTING PEOPLE.

Nobody said it was ever easy.

The gender would be influential - are dog puppies or bitch puppies more desired at the time of your litter?

But whats the point of 5 extra puppies from a culled litter if no-one uses one of the males at stud or breeds from any of the bitches?  Better the litter never to have been born.  If the pups were so in demand for their 'pedigrees' they'd be a waiting list for more than 5!

I don't think I've ever disappointed any potential puppy buyers except the ones that lost out but in the case of my last litter I had bookings for 7 males and only had 2...thankfully some people were open minded enough to swap sexes as I had a lot of bitches in that litter and very few bookings - which is quite unheard of!

Barbara can I ask have you ever culled or contemplated it?

No fortunately I have never had to cull, other than if there was something obviously wrong with a puppy.  I usually have 4 to 7 pups, and the largest litter was 9 (predominately female).

My breed are medium size, and with sensible rearing make excellent pets, no more difficult than many breeds, bit independent but no worse than say a Jack Russel.  Main problem with homing is the breed being little known.

It is not unusual to have the odd pup unsold way past 8 weeks, you simply wait for the right home to come along.

Sadly dogs from adolescence to two years are most likely to come into rescue, usually those bought through a commercial kennels by owners who bought on whim and don't put the work into rearing a dog.  We have had dogs through rescue up to 10 years old where the owners tire of them.

This person breeds once every five years, it is a rare breed with low registration figures and is barely kept going, that is exactly what she does, and the people prepared to wait for five years for a pup are pretty good candidates.

My own breed has too few bred each year to maintain a healthy population with a diverse gene pool yet any more and there woudln't be homes forthcoming, so breeders have to regularly go to expensive measures to boost the available bloodlines.

To cull or not to cull is a really difficult issue.  In my first litter of Ridgebacks, I had 15 puppies.  I'd done it all properly and had lots of homes waiting, but 15 puppies is almost like having 2 litters at once.  I was in shock when they all arrived and knew that, especially as a newcomer to the breed, I would have problems in finding suitable homes for so many puppies.  (This was in 1987 when the Ridgeback was much less common and most people didn't know what they were.)  That was more my concern than the issue of helping to hand rear the pups.  I made the decision to ask the vet to cull some of the pups and I chose the mismarked puppies.  This was a horrible decision at a very emotional time and I felt awful but I really thought it was the only sensible thing to do in the circumstances.  However, having made this horrendous decision, my vet refused to cull the puppies.  In a way I was relieved - and I didn't have the mental strength to try to find another vet to do it.  With so many puppies, we had to hand feed each puppy every 2 hours - including through the night.  It was incredibly hard work and very stressful.  But we ended up with beautiful, chunky, very well handled puppies.  A few people who visited, who probably expected to see rather scrawny pups from such a large litter, actually burst into tears when they saw this mass of bonny babies.  However, the last puppies were nearly 5 months old when I found suitable homes for them.  There were times when I thought I'd never find the right homes for them and I was often in tears, wondering what their fate would be. 

I still have mixed feelings about culling large litters.  If all the pups are healthy and if you are prepared to put in the work to support your bitch and, I think most importantly, if you know there will be good homes, then I think it's fine to go ahead but that's a lot of "if"s.  I certainly wouldn't criticise someone who decided to cull.  And I think sometimes we fight too hard to keep sickly puppies alive.  I'm not sure that it's always the kindest thing to do. 

I also think that the question of whether the overall quality of breeds has declined because of people raising all their pups, is an interesting one.  

"I also think that the question of whether the overall quality of breeds has declined because of people raising all their pups, is an interesting one. "

From a genetics point of view and keeping a wider gene pool more litter of fewer pups would be more useful.  so rearing a large litter less often is less helpful to the breed, and having more but smaller litters is better, assuming of course a diverse number of sires and dams are used. 

Also depends on how many of the pups go on to contribute to the gene pool themselves.

if one from each litter be it small or large, it could be argues that the large litter gives a bigger chance of the best being retained for breeding, but in reality is this so?  Pups are chosen largely at 8 weeks, and most breeders will really never know if the best was retained, and even if it wasn't it is too late to do anything about it. 

Really interesting to hear a first hand account of the realities of looking after and homing a very large litter - thanks Ridgielover. This is such an emotive subject and most of us will never be in the situation of having to decide what to do ( my own breed rarely has more than 8 pups and almost always has waiting lists of people wanting pups) - if good breeders of those breeds who traditionally produce large litters stop breeding because of fears of being left with unsold pups then this leaves the market wide open to the 'bad' breeders and narriows the gene pool of quality dogs-

Perhaps the answer is to restrict the breeding of dogs to those who have passed stringent tests i.e. make the KC Accredited Breeder scheme have some real 'teeth' and make it illegal to sell dogs unless you are a member of the scheme - that way there would be far fewer dogs produced - and many more homes available for pups from big litters.

Yvonne

Perhaps the answer is to restrict the breeding of dogs to those who have passed stringent tests i.e. make the KC Accredited Breeder scheme have some real 'teeth' and make it illegal to sell dogs unless you are a member of the scheme - that way there would be far fewer dogs produced - and many more homes available for pups from big litters.

Excellent point, really wish the KC would do this, then it would be hard/impossible to mass produce puppies. They can't make it illegal to sell puppies, but by refusing to register them it would take some of the easy money away from the producers.

Culling is such an imotive subject, I couldnt bear to see anything culled unless it was ill, deformed etc, and it was upsetting to read JGs post where the Dobes were culled at 9 MTHS of age. That I found awful, I'm suprised a vet did it. This would surely have been a case where assistance could have been gained from the breed rescue? They didnt have to take the dogs in, but could have found a home for them from the breeders addy. Whats the point of breed rescue if they won't help young dogs in need?

I'm just pleased everyone is talking about vets PTS, not the bucket....

>Whats the point of breed rescue if they won't help young dogs in need?

Breed rescue is primarily for those dogs whose breeders can't or won't accept responsibility for them - they're not a sales- or homing-service for breeders.

Personally I don't think anyone should be breeding a breed which has 10+ puppies without definite bookings for at least 6 of the forthcoming puppies

Yes, this is exactly the point, responsible breeders lets be honest only breed if there is a need, whether to do with the gene pool, or a popular call in the show, working or even pet home for the breed, otherwise why do it?

Most breeders will have a waiting list, and if a particularly large litter were born then there should be enough avenue for good pet homes or even more choice for show or working homes.

Responsible breeders don't over breed, puppy farmers, pet homes mating A & B together because they are the same breed are the people that do and will, and frankly won't care, so anything said or done will fall on deaf ears anyway.

Personally I would rather have a few extra overspill of well bred dogs from good breeders with all relevant health checks, spilling out into the world than untested pet dogs. 

>Personally I would rather have a few extra overspill of well bred dogs from good breeders with all relevant health checks, spilling out into the world than untested pet dogs. 

Yes, but spilling out where? If there aren't suitable homes for them, what's to happen to them? There are a few options: they could be sold to less-than-ideal homes; they could be dumped on rescue; they could be put to sleep; they could live their lives in a kennel at the breeder's home with very little one-to-one attention because there's no room in the breeder's house ... Believe me, it's bad enough having just one that nobody wanted, although plenty  of people came to see him :( - six or seven would be impossible to keep correctly.

I think that you and I, JG, are old enough to remember when there weren't rescue kennels in every town overflowing with unwanted pet bred dogs like there are these days and considered 'normal'! :(

And of course in the more popular breeds there are good homes lost if the waiting time is overly long; a few good owners will wait a couple of years for a puppy from a certain breeding, if they know their stuff, but others, offering just as good a home, won't wait more than a few months, which is understandable. If there isn't a reasonably steady supply of quality puppies then these people are effectively being pushed into the grasping clutches of the puppy farmers. Good breeders of quality stock have to be careful not to shoot themselves in the foot.

This is the biggest problem with the numerically small breeds.  On the one hand breeders don't court popularity, on the other people get tired of waiting and get something more easily available.  Then the breeder is wary of breeding to improve the lines and gene pool in case they can't find suitable homes.

In more popular breeds with huge rescue problems ethical breeders scale down their breeding to the bare minimum, and the puppy farmers just breed even more, as it isn't them that pick up the pieces in rescue.

Funny it was on the news this morning again about bulging rescue centres and they were questioning, " Are we indeed a nation of dog lovers".

You only have to look in the papers and around you to see what is happening. 

Luckily our breed registration is on the downturn.

Only sad thing is there are more puppy demands that puppies which can encourage puppy farmers and the backyard breeders.

I've always thought it's the responsible thing to do if you have a large litter of a breed that can be difficult for the average family to cope with. A very good friend and I had this discussion when she used my dog many years ago. She had 5 good homes lined up, plus one for herself but had 9 puppies. We sat and looked at the litter for hours, trying to decide which ones to cull but in the end neither of us could actually go through with it. I'm glad we didn't afterall as the two bitches which were to go turned into the most gorgeous girls.

I certainly wouldn't criticise anyone who culled some of a large litter, better to cull them as new-borns than have them going to less than suitable homes I think. As others have said I don't agree with culling mismarks/non show quality if they are of a breed that make good family pets.

As others have said I don't agree with culling mismarks/non show quality if they are of a breed that make good family pets.

I understand why you are saying that, and I can agree BUT in years gone by, mismarks and pups with coat faults were culled and the standards of the breeds were maintained.  Since the homing of mismarks in family homes, whether they were endorsed or not, we have now seen the escalation of breeding specifically for non standard colours and coats just because pet owners think that they look nice, regardless of it being against the breed standards.  I don't consider that to be a step in the right direction.

It really is a tough one Val, I agree with what you're saying but can't agree with culling a pup because it doesn't have the correct markings if it would be relatively easy to find a good home for it. Luckily in my two breeds colour/makings aren't important. Well not important in borzois or working collies, I've never owned a show bred collie.

If they were to live out their days as loved pets, then that's just fine, but once the owners start breeding from them .......................... you end up with dogs that look nothing like the shape, conformation, temperament of the real breed. :(  The old dog people wouldn't have taken that risk and I'm sure are turning in their graves when they see, just for instance, long coated and white GSDs, merle Danes etc.

It really is a tough one Val
Yep, maintaining the breed standard is tough - I wouldn't argue with that. ;)

If they were to live out their days as loved pets, then that's just fine, but once the owners start breeding from them .......................... you end up with dogs that look nothing like the shape, conformation, temperament of the real breed.

True, I wonder what the best answer is then.

Playing Devils Advocate here... Other than obvious colour faults we can't always tell how a pup will turn out. Should breeders be prepared to cull at 6 weeks if they have obvious conformation faults too? And then where would you draw the line. This pup has lovely shoulders, this one is a little more upright...this pup has a kink in its tail...this pup is longer in loin than ideal.....

Peraps neutering at a young age as they do in some rescues do in America?

>Peraps neutering at a young age as they do in some rescues do in America?

The health risks, particularly to my breed, would rule that out as a sensible course of action. And besides, even neutered pups need a home to go to. If nobody wants them in the first place (like my Piglet), being neutered or not would make no difference.

Agreed but this was in answer to the problem of people breeding from pet only non standard dogs. The whole thing is such a minefield that I'm glad I'll never have another litter. Far easier to just buy in a pup without all the worry about what happens to its litermates :)