Just had my insurance renewals in for 3 of the dogs. Hamish, 7 1/2 year old Goldie has gone up £3.61 a month, Winnie, 3 years old sussex spaniel has gone up £2.69 pm, but Lottie, 4 1/2 year old Dobe, has gone up a massive £7.28 pm. I just find it unbelievable that because of her breed (that was their excuse) her policy has gone up so much. As it is she is the only one of my dogs that I pay an excess for and she is the only one I haven't made a claim for. I wonder how much Hattie's (Dobe) will be on renewal in July as I've made loads of claims and have a zero excess with her.

Rant over, I needed to get that off my chest!

Got my renewal through yesterday and its gone up by £6 pm and an excess of £50 and Misty is only 13 months old. The only time we have visited a vets is for checkups/vacs.

Slowly working our way through other sites for other quotes. :rolleyes:

Just been looking at other companies and they are ALL equally or much more expensive. I've just done a comparison on one site and for exactly the same details a Dobe came out at £302.00 whereas a Goldie was £158.00. Absolutely ridiculous!

Unless you have a limited income, it is more and more economic to self-insure where there are two or more dogs :) I gave up our pet insurance last year, preferring to carry my own risk :)

Daisy

I already do this for my Golden oldie as premiums were so high. But last year I spent a lot of time with various dogs at the vets, for Hattie (various things) amounting to about £500.00, Winnie major ear problems about £1,000 and Charlie had a stroke (£300.00) and a spleen tumour removed (£600.00).  Charlie is the only one not insured. The receptionist even worked out that since 2000 I'd spent over £10,000 with them! I don't think I'd feel confident to uninsure all of them. It is really this breed specific increase that has got my back up.

I have opened a special dog insurance account and transfer money to it each month. I have 5 dogs and I cannot afford the premiums

That only works if you build up a good amount in the account BEFORE you need to make a claim (or dip into the fund), which is why I feel I need to keep on with the insurance, but long term I think that is the way to go.

I have five dogs and they are all insured

Ditto.

Just had a bad run with an ear infection costing me around £300, but then she is in her 4th year and would have cost at least £600 in Insurance premiums by now.

The only major Vet expense last year was the Mastitis, which wouldn't have been covered as it was a breeding risk.

Generally have not had much in the way of Vet fees for the five adults I have owned until they became veterans, and even then it was a lot less than their premiums would have been to that point.

So far pet insurance is money ahead for me. Our premiums is about £180 a year and so far they've paid out about £4000 since Nov 2005. :-D Milo can be insured for a long time before I start losing out (so surprised they kept us!) LOL

That's always the problem with insurance :) We have had Bramble for nearly 8 years and his (claimable) vet bills are probably about £100. Tara is nearly 5 and hers would be about £500ish. When we cancelled the insurance last year, the premium was £50 per month - £600 per year :( We are fortunate to have savings so a large vet bill could be paid. I'd always advise insurance for people who have none to dip into :)

Daisy

I hope all of you without insurance still have third party cover though, if something were to happen and you were sued (getting very common) compensation costs can be huge!
Putting money aside can be a gamble though, what if they all got ill at the same time? Given that some referral fees can be in the thousands for just one animal how can you possibly put enough money away to pay for that? I claimed back over £700 for my 3 dogs last year (all quite minor ailments) my premiums for all three were around £400 for the year. I saved money. As some of the conditions are long term i'm likely to save that kind of money every year. I could never afford to put that kind of money away. My friends dog has had a double him replacement which was over £8000. (seperate years). I don't even earn that kind of money in a year on my piddly little salary!!

i pay £60 a month for 2 labs, a lab x, a spaniel x, 1 cat and my nans lhaso x, im yet to put my newbie on the policy but she will be soon, if i didnt have the insurance i would be well and truly stuck, Bruce is accident prone and has probably cost me about £3000 at the vets alone in 3 years, this is money that obviously i would pay if i had to but would rather spend it elsewhere, food, treats bedding etc. Willie my cat wasnt insured and im still paying the vets back. My nans dog is on my policy as the same company were charging her a lot more than i was paying for tess and her excess was £200 they wouldnt change it as they said she had asked for it, but she doesnt know what it was they were offering, they just took advantage of her being elderly

tanya

well i have one dog and one cat with m&s, dog is 10quid, cat is 5quid. Dog has had 600quids worth of treatment on first year, so dont mind that her premiun had gone up a bit.
But just took out ins for my new dog- 11quid a month! more than the other dogs for some reason..

but all policies are no excess, so i have total peace of mind now, i know that i dont have that hesitation on worry, and 27 quid a month is worth that! x

just going though the door at our vets is £27.00 consaultion fee so that be one month of insurance.

i got 6 dogs all insured i had my money worth over the years.even if i didnt claim for another 5 to 8 year i be in cerit
the 6 cost me over 80 month with m/s.iwas paying 95 for 4 dogs 6 years ago with petplan

It isn't just the premiums as being penalised for owning Dobermanns. I just think it is absolutely ridiculous that a Dobe is going to cost nearly twice as much as a Goldie to insure. Similar size dogs, it's just this reputation thing again, which I don't think should have anything to do with vet fees, as surely a Dobe is no more likely to need veterinary attention than a Goldie. I would have thought it would be fairer to go on the size of the dog rather than it's breed.

I don't think you will like this so don't shoot the messenger but I think the reputation bit, rightly or wrongly, comes into the public liability element rather than the vet's fees.

Isabel, I certainly wouldn't shoot you (although I might like to shoot the insurance company!) and I think you are probably right. But in the great scheme of things I think most of us take out pet insurance to cover vet fees, and it's a bit like the DDA, in as much as why penalise ALL dogs of a particular breed, I think it is definately flawed. I seem to remember when all the attacks were happening with the Rotties killing children a well respected behaviourist mentioned Golden Retriever attacks being more common. I know in my area the dogs most commonly seen fighting are Labs and Border Collies. Like I said in an earlier post I think size would be a fairer measure in insurance pricing than breed, after all a Goldie could cause as much damage as a Dobe.

All insurance is like that. The premium for all young male drivers is higher than for similarly qualified female drivers of the same age. With dog insurance, the bigger the breed the more damage it could do.

Exactly my point JG. A Dobe and a Goldie, roughly the same size, could do the same amount of damage, but twice the price to insure. OK because of the "reputation" maybe a bit more expensive, but TWICE the price?

We have a Dobe and a Persian cat with M&S, but the new Whippet puppys premium is higher due to his age apparently. I was so shocked that I searched for another insurance company. Then thinking about it again and by reading the small print on other aggrements, we have decided to go with m&S again. We have had some big claims with them this year including £1500 for the Dobes eye op, plus the persians dental work and they never quibble about the costs, they just pay up. Which at the time is fantastic. There is peace of mind in knowing your covered.

The thing that annoyed me more than anything is the breed thing. Being soooo peevd I wanted to find out what breeds payed the most in premiums and I can't see any logic in it. Putting into their online quote thing a bitch, 4 1/2 years old, I came out with the following:

Dobermann, Rottweiler, Boxer, St. Bernard, Bouvier £302.36 pa
Golden Retriever, Labrador £158.34 pa
German Shepherd, Belgium Shepherd, Bearded Collie £150.76 pa
Akita £141.34 pa

If anyone can explain why a GS (with the same reputation as a Dobe, Rottie etc. and a higher numerical number, therefore more around to cause a problem) is cheaper than a Goldie, and an Akita is cheapest of all, I would like to know. I have queried this with M&S so I'll let you know what reply I get.

My best guess is that they base premium payments on the amount and/or value of claims they've had to pay out for each various breed.

> My best guess is that they base premium payments on the amount and/or value of claims they've had to pay out for each various breed

Of course :) Why do insurance companies employ actuaries ?? :D :D The whole business of an actuary is to work out the risk of insuring someone/a car/a dog etc - the ones that claim the most (based on various factors - breed/make of car/age etc etc etc) have the highest premium. It has absolutely nothing to do with perceived risk :)

Daisy

Golden Retriever, Labrador £158.34 pa

With M&S we pay over £24 per month for an 18 month old Golden Retriever, no excess, and this was nearly 100% increase on the first years premium. When I queried such a huge increase we were told that young dogs were more likely to have an accident than older ones - didn't quite get the logic of all that as he was even younger last year and cost half the price to insure

Was even more puzzled when I noticed that policy says that for dogs over the age of 8 there is a compulsary excess and you have to pay 15% of vets fees in addition to the excess which would lead me to believe that the underwriters expect more claims from older dogs

They are not as good as they used to be, that's for sure and now they are so pricey too.

Certainly agree with your sentiments.
One Boxer bitch - spayed, 6yo this year £42.99 per month
other boxer bitch, 3yo entire, £23.99 per month.

6 yrs ago paid £19.99 per month for 10yo boxer bitch spayed
for unlimited vet fee's...the above are limited to £7000...

OUCH

Harley
For my now 22 month old Dobe I am currently paying £13.61 a month, no excess, her renewal is due in July and I dread to think what that will be as her Mum's went up by £7.28 a month (now £21.65 with £50 excess).

I quote from a letter I received from M&S:

"Having investigated this issue, I can confirm that your premium is now calculated based upon a combination of the age, breed and gender of your pet, and also the part of the country in which you reside, it is also dependant on the excess you opt for.

Previously, premiums were only based on the postcode and the age of your pet. However, this was broken down into three different price bands, so for example if your pet was 1 year old it would be cheaper compared to a pet that was 9 years old. It also took into account whether the pet was a pure breed or crossbreed, but after researching insurers found that this was not sophisticated enough to cope with changing insurance and claim patterns.

I can confirm that AXA have always underwritten the M&S Pet insurance. It is only after conducting in depth research that it has been identified the premiums need to be more structured; this has therefore resulted in various increases."

I feel this response is just a load of waffle and I am going to take the matter further. I've now got the bit between my teeth and will keep you posted as to how I get on.

Would be interested to hear how you get on. I personally think that they used a spratt to catch a mackerel through having low premiums to lure people in and then put them up on renewal knowing that anyone who had claimed for a long term condition or injury likeky to recur would not really have any other option than to stay with them.

I would be interested to know what a quote from a new customer in my geographical area with same breed/age/sex dog would be - not that I am at all cynical about this matter :D

That's my feeling too Harley.  I wonder if M&S knew AXA's plan? :(  I know of people not happy with AXA's car insurance handling. :(

>I know of people not happy with AXA's car insurance handling. 

I know of some who are not happy with Axa's insurance handling of anything, :-( their underwriting has been said to be unclear and considerably complex and not worth the paper it is written on.  :-(

That's what More Than do - breed of pet, age, and definately post code
plus I'm guessing more than also apply the gender rule too :rolleyes:

When I was with PetHealthcare (who got bought out by MoreThan) their
premiums were much cheaper until they got bought out and then slowly but surely
the premiums have increased year on year :(

Seems all the pet insurance companies are jumping on the same bandwagon :(
Gone are the days when it used to be a reasonable cost to insure pets.

HI.all  i am with  healthy pets  http://www.healthy-pets.com. i only pay £65.65 a year a few pounds a month, i too never use this insurance but if (and when)the time comes i know i will be able to pay for my westhighland terrier.it`s not worth me claiming for his yearly injections and his worming tablets ect. but  at least it`s there to fall back on.

Vaccination and worming are not usually covered by insurance anyway.

I don't think any insurance company will pay for annual injections or worm and flea treatments because they're preventative, not curative. Apart from that, most have an excess that is more than the cost of these items.

AN UPDATE
Finally had a response from AXA, the underwriters, and although they have reduced the cost of Lottie's premium (due to a cock-up with NIL excess, but that is another story) they still aren't giving me any more details as to how the premiums are worked out.

I quote:
"I can understand your concerns with the increase in Lottie's insurance premium, however, as a result of recent claims information supplied to the insurance market place, AXA Insurance has created a new pricing standard to ensure that we are charging the correct premium for the risk involved.....
.......I note your comments on the premiums quoted for the various breeds however I am sorry I am unable to confirm exactly how each premium is calculated as this is commercially sensitive information".

Is there not a freedom of information act meaning I should be able to find this out? If anyone knows please let me know, as I want to inquire further.

I've just had my M&S renewal notification for my youngest.  Being a 2 year old giant breed, I was expecting the worst but I was pleasantly surprised to find the cost of her policy has only gone up by about £20 for the year. It is now £140.32 which I think is pretty reasonable, given the level of cover hey offer.

Being a 2 year old giant breed, I was expecting the worst but I was pleasantly surprised to find the cost of her policy has only gone up by about £20 for the year. It is now £140.32 which I think is pretty reasonable, given the level of cover hey offer.

I really don't understand how they work out the premiums - ours increased by almost 100% to £236 pa for a Golden Retriever who was 15 months old at his renewal date

Why should they tell you how it's worked out ?? Surely, as a business, they are entitled to work out their charges how they please :) I know that the company that I work for would never tell any of our customers how our prices are based - other than they are worked in a standard way for any commercial organisation :) :) Basically it comes down to - if you don't like their charges, change company :) :)

Daisy

Just as recipes are trade secrets (Coca Cola or Worcestershire sauce for example) there's no reason why an insurance company should have to reveal how it arrives at its prices. This is the commercial world, after all.

<Why should they tell you how it's worked out ??>
Why not? I'm only asking for a bit more information and clarification. I can see the logic in size, age, sex etc. But breed I can't. As I said before why does a Dobe cost twice as much as a German Shepherd to insure - there is no sense in it. All I want from them is an explanation.

How do they know that you don't work for one of their competitors? Industrial espionnage (and using the pretext of "I'm just an ordinary customer making an enquiry" is the oldest trick in the book!) can cost companies millions.

My renewal is just in, M&S up by £70.00 this year.  No claims so i don't know how they work that out..
Yvonne

>No claims so i don't know how they work that out

No claims from you, but they have to cover the cost of everyone else's claims, so everyone's premiums rise. Just like house or car insurance - despite no claims bonuses, premiums still rise because of everyone else.

At the end of the day they are making you an offer and it is up to you whether you find it acceptable.  They will have spend a considerable amount of time and money collating the data that they use to calculate risk.  Of course they don't want to share it :)
Why do you want you know anyway, are you hoping you will be able to argue the point with them?  A forlorn hope I would think :)

An insurance companies marketing policy is up to them :) If they decide that dobes are going to incur heavier rates than another breed then it may be that they find that there are more claims from dobe owners than other similar breeds. Then again, they might just decide that they don't want to insure dobes :D :D It's a bit like when we tried to get car insurance for our 17 year old son - some companies were just not interested, some quoted ludicrous prices and others (relatively) reasonable prices. It's just down to the company - at the end of the day they are trying to make a profit, so their rates will reflect that :)

Daisy

Maybe it is forlorn and yes you are right it is up to me whether to take out the policy or not. I choose to because I think the cost of the premium is the lesser evil than having to pay a huge vet bill. BUT I would just like to know how the premiums are worked out as they seem so unfair and illogical.

All insurance premiums are based on the amount and size of claims submitted by the public. All the statistics will be recorded and analysed, and premiums based on the results.

For instance, young male drivers are statistically more likely to have accidents, so their premiums are sky high. House contents insurance is higher in areas with a high number of reported burglaries. If Tripehounds have a statistically higher number of claims, then the premiums for Tripehounds will rise further than those of the much less risky Bindledog. ;)

Yep - much like the odds at a bookies :D

Daisy

Insurance is based on risk management.  Risk management looks at historical data, scientific evidence, etc etc etc upon which they base their premia.

Therefore the reason that premia differ from breed to breed is based on their date demonstrating what dogs are more likely to present themselves for veterinary treatment and the severity of the conditions.

As 45k labradors are registered with the KC per annum you will find that if you look at what dog appears most on claim forms it is unsurprisingly the labrador, added to that is the fact that most breeding stock for labradors are not health screened for HD and replacement hip surgery is very expensive.

This is but one example.  The other consideration that is taken into account is post code as, like houses and cars, risk can be related to where you live.

So I think you will find that insurance premia is not based on REPUTATION but actual instances.  Much as has already been posted about young male drivers.

Insurance is worked out very similarly to betting, the odd of something happening based on form......... ;)