Why if lets say a gundog wins BIS why do they not call the Group 2 gundog in for RBIS, after all the Gundog group 2 dog has only been beaten by the group winner who is BIS? Why does the RBIS always go to another group winner? Just a thought.

Just the way it is I guess.  Pluss all group 2's and puppy group 2's would then have to wait around till the end, if they went home they would be called and no response...too much hard work IMO!

The BIS & RBIS is taken from the group WINNERS... not from second placings... you could not bring a G2 and place it ahead of a G1....

Why not ? ....if the group 2 to the eventual BIS was unbeaten by all the other group 1's ? ....interesting point ........ I think this kind of happened at Boston Ch show where both BIS and RBIS came from the hound group

Yvonne

BIS is taken from all unbeaten dogs(Group winners at a show run on the group system), BIS is the Best of the unbeaen dogs, the next best 3 unbeaten dogs should be placed 2nd to 4th, A 2nd in group is not an unbeaten dog

>A 2nd in group is not an unbeaten dog

By the same logic, any other group winner who has been beaten by the BIS is not really an unbeaten dog either. :D Can see Beagler's logic, but think Ice Queen has it - that's just the way it is!

M.

Surely also BOB is taken from unbeaten dogs but 2nd behind BOB can have RBOB.

Saying that, for group 1 why can't a RBOB compete for group 2...(although think the wording basically is all unbeaten bob winners) and again just too complicated.

It would be logical, but imagine asking all G2 winners at a show over more than 1 day to return just in case their G1 gets BIS. It is just the way the rule is to keep things simple - although the logic is as you have argued.

The rules state that RBIS must come from the remaining group winners(add they must be placed 2nd to 4th as well of course) so Group 2nd's are excluded simple as that

If you don't like that rule then lobbying the KC to change it, is the only way, no point in asking why can't Group 2nd's be considered, the rules state they can't at this time

I agree with the logic, but also agree it would just make things too complicated - bad enough calling people in for RBOB, unbeaten puppies out of other classes, unbeaten tricolours for a special colour award etc etc! :-D

But the thing is, Boston was NOT run on the group system, which is WHY it could happen. :) A show run on the group system MUST pick the BIS and RBIS from the group winners according to KC rules.

I can see what everyone is saying and to go RBIS you have to be unbeaten and only group winners qualify then that clears it up.

I just thought about this whilst waiting for the group judging at Hinckley Show last sunday. We got threw out with the dishwater.

Thanks for the replies

We got a group 2 in the working group last week at Hinckley I was so annoyed  our best in breed did not stay to take her place in the group..... In my eyes that took the opporunitiy away from someone else. And was very bad manners for the Judge.

There's many reasons why someone might not be able to stay for Group judging.  I've left before the Group or BIS on a few occasions.

Debs

Sometimes it is just too much to stay for the group. The dog might have had enough as well. A couple of weeks ago I got a BOB and decided to stay as a pup I'd bred had got BP so was going in the puppy group so we stayed together. We had FIVE HOURS to wait after the breed judging before the groups. Made it a very, very long day indeed....

Yep i accept reasons like that. But i still think it curtious to at least let it be know to the stewards etc of that intention not to be there.

I actually think that the groups are the least important part of showing - surely what matters is to compete against your own breed ? - some breeds regulalry do better than others in the groups - particularly at Champ level - yet as specimens of their particular breed they are no better than less flashy BOB's ( when did you last see a Buhund/Cardigan Corgi/Schipperkee/Border Terrier etc etc win their group or indeed BIS ?) - to me the important thing is to compare like with like - the rest is just some kind of glossy variety class :D

Yvonne

I agree Yvonne.  The group is razzamatazz :) fun for those getting them and a bit of 'show' to watch but not important to a breed really.