I'm posting this question in behalf of my sister-in-law who is having major problems with her lab. We have searched some old posts which have been really useful but I think we could do with more help! Will is a 14 month old Lab. Since they first got him he has always been an extremely hyperactive dog, who never seems to calm down. My sister-in-law and her husbad have trained him since he was a pup, and he knows basic commands but only when offered food or toys, if neither are offered he just wont listen. He does seem to listen to my brother when he is being naughty, but he never listens to my sister-in-law. when she is alone with him and she tries to tell him off he snarles and bites her drawing blood, so it's not even a warning nip. He demands constant attention, so sister-in-law plays with him for ages, but when she wants to end the game he will not leave her alone, contantly nipping and barking for more attention. She ends up shutting him out of the room. As the nipping, snarling and biting is getting wose, she is getting more nervous and scared being around Will, no doubt he can sense this.
We know he was taken from him from his mum at 3-4 weeks (they got him at 7 weeks), I think maybe this has a lot to do with it, he wasn't taught manners by his mum. (what do you think?). We have thought about changing his food and getting new toys, would this help? they have been told to give him lots of praise when he is calm, but he is never calm so its hard to do this! He has been checked by the vet, who said he was physically fine. He gets one walk for a hour a day, and he still doesn't calm down.
Sorry its a long post, but we wanted to put in as much detal as possible. PLEASE HELP:-( my sister-in-law is 12 weeks pregnant, and loves Will to bits so they really do not want to lose him, but this situation needs sorting before the baby is born. Any suggestions would be gratefully received!

I'm sure more experienced labrador owners will be along soon but a couple of points occur to me.  When you say he gets nasty when she tries to stop the game what sort of games is she playing.   As a general rule I would not play rough house games with any dog particularly a youngster unless they have shown they completely understand it's limits.
Secondly 1 hours walk sounds very little for a large working breed to me.  My cockers would be rather difficult if they had so little in their prime.

im sure somebody with more experience
will come along soon, but my first thought was
does your SIL feed the lab or is it OH
i have two dogs and they used to play me up,
not, as bad as you say but, they where getting a handfull
i started feeding the dogs instead of my OH and,
things have settled down.

Don't know if its the right advice but it did help me.
Hope it helps :-)

Donna

He obviously knows he can get away with it with your sister in law.
I'm no expert but my young golden has been a handful and I have a very good friend who is a breeder and she told me to do the following:

Never let him on the furniture and not in the bedroom or on the bed.  Always walk through doors before him.  If he snarls and bites then lay him on his side and hold him down - he will try to get out of this so make sure you hold his back end as well.  The trouble is they are strong dogs and as your sister in law is pregnant this might not be a good idea.   Don't give him any titbits at the table, and always feed him after you've had your food.

When you are telling him off try to do so in a firm voice not a shouting high pitched one which can make them more excited.

We have invested in a spray can corrector from pets at home, it hisses loudly and he hates it, so we've only sprayed it a couple of times when he does something he shouldn't (like hump me) and it works.

When you say he won't leave your sister in law alone when she doesn't want to play any longer, I have also had this behaviour and I say no firmly, if he continues then I tell him he will have to go in the kitchen, if this doesn't work I take him in the kitchen and close the dog gate (which was a great investment)!

Another thing I was advised to do was to always give praise for any good behaviour. 

You/they will need lots of patience as he sounds a very strong willed dog like mine!

I'm sure there is a lot more you can do and equally sure you'll get lots more advice on here soon!  Good luck and don't give up it could be the Kevin Stage!!!

Some good advice here thanks MariaC! Sounds like you had similar problems. As you say she has tried holding him down, but he is a very strong dog, and as she is a little nervous of him she is not really confident enough to do this. As for not letting him on the furniture they have tried, but when she tries to get his off that is when he snarles. I thought they should maybe encourage him to get off with titbits and add a command such as 'off'. I just worry that he wil learn that if he will get a titbit if he jumps ON the furniture! He used to be allowed upstairs but they put a stop to that. They are tring to stop him getting on the settee, but this is causing the problems I've mentioned.
Spray can corrector sounds like a good idea. They tried shaking coins in a can, but it made him more excited!
They are also praising for good behaviour much more now. I hope that it is just a case of patience, consistency and a bit more patience, along with good advice from this forum!!

>If he snarls and bites then lay him on his side and hold him down - he will try to get out of this so make sure you hold his back end as well.

The majority of this post is fine, but the above quote is, I'm afraid, potentially disastrous. :( It's really not sensible at all to get physical like this with any dog - a sensitive one will get distressed and a bolshy one will fight back, and a labrador in his prime is much stronger than a person, especially a woman in early pregnancy. Forcibly 'pinning' a dog is an aggressive act and fighting aggression with aggression is likely to result in bites.

First of all, a single walk per day isn't enough. Two half-hour walks would be better than one of one-hour, but three walks a day would be even better. Perhaps they could introduce a half-hour walk in the morning, a half-hour one at lunchtime and an hour in the evening. Remember, he's a breed that for hundreds of generations has been bred for being active all day, so being inactive for any length of time is very frustrating. It sounds as though he's got more energy than he knows what to do with and he badly needs more opportunities to relieve his stress and boredom.

Thanks to all your responses so far. They both work shifts, so he is not on his own for long periods, but your all right - he maybe doesn't get enough walks. I think due to their working hours it gets difficult, but they will just have to sort it out to help calm him down. I worry that this still doesn't explain why he is biting my SIL and what we can do about it. She only has so say a stern "NO" to him or, if she tries to move him by his collar, such as to get him off the settee he will snarl at her, and sometimes bite.
As for feeding, by bro does it in the morning and my SIL feeds him in the evening, so its pretty much 50:50. The games she usually plays I think are tug games. Perhaps this game gets him too excited?

Yes I would stop all physical games for now and concentrate on cerebral ones such as seeking out items or even fetching thrown objects but only if the item can be taken without any conflict.

concentrate on cerebral ones such as seeking out items or even fetching thrown objects but only if the item can be taken without any conflict.

A way round this - if the dog is not keen on giving up the fetched item - is to have two balls to play with. Throw one and when he brings it back throw the other one and hopefully he will drop one to rush off and get the other one. As he drops the first ball say "drop" or whatever command you would usually give and praise him so he associates the action of dropping the ball with the word that will eventually be the command for him to let go of the ball. A friend used this method for her dog who would never give up a ball once he had it and it took a while but he did eventually learn to give it up when told to.

He really shouldn't be on the settee, I know it's great to have a cuddle from your dog and have them on the bed etc etc, but when he is behaving in this way he has to be shown who is boss!

My last dog was always on the chair or sofa or bed and we didn't have a problem, but with our new boy his personality is totally different and if we give him an inch he'll take a yard.  He is so much better now he isn't allowed on the furniture.  I'm sure when he is older and calmer, we'll let him back but until we are 100% sure then he will stay on the floor or in his beds!

but when he is behaving in this way he has to be shown who is boss!

A HUMAN is NOT the boss over a dog! It doesn't work like that, thinking that people should dominate dogs and be the pack leader is very, very outdated thinking going back decades. We now know better.
Here is a great page from the person I train for, that explains that you don't have to be a pack leader and if you want your dog on the sofa, why not?:
http://www.teamworktraining.co.uk/approach.asp

Thanks for the link Goldmali. It was really interesting. Lincoln is not too far from us, so I am going to suggest my SIL attends the classes with Will. She has nothing to lose. Perhaps a different approach to his training is exactly what he needs.
I think I might even try the classes myself for my own dog Sam. He is a generlly a great dog, but there are a couple of minor things that his class might help me tackle! Thanks again.

I really, really enjoy these classes and my dogs do too -I've noticed a big difference in them being trained like this.  :)

A HUMAN is NOT the boss over a dog!

I have to disagree with you on that one, of course we are the ones in control!

You say on your website Goldmali that you have had problems with aggressive dogs - maybe time to re-visit your training techniques?

I can quite you any number of references if you like that all say the pack theory/dominance theory is outdated (by decades) rubbish. So can most of us here! But  most of us also base our knowledge on more than just two dogs as well. You cannot fight aggression with aggression.

Oh and do you HONESTLY mean to say you STILL believe we all should do like you and push your dog on the side and hold him down, despite everyone who have told you how wrong this is? :rolleyes: Of course, it must be my training techniques that are wrong as I don't believe in violence.

I think that was one dog, Maria, and as Marianne owns and has owned many dogs I don't think that serves to demonstrate any failing in her methods.

Before Maria jumps in :) I'll be the first one to say (as I believe in total honesty and this is why I don't hide anything on my websites, unlike many other breeders of both dogs and cats) there has been past dogs with problems -none of them caused by me, all of them (bar the rescue who lived her first 6 months locked in a shed and never recovered emotionally) where it later emerged other dogs, with other owners, from the same lines/same breeders had the exact same problems.

Thanks for the clarification Marianne, but my point still stands there can't be much wrong with your methods or it would be reflected in all your dogs, particularly those reared by you.

Thank you Isabel. :) Have just spent a long day at a show with several of my puppy buyers and I dare say they agree judging by their comments today. :D

Goldmali - it might help if you qualified your statement about the dominance theory being outdated.
I'm assuming that you're referring solely to the training of dogs ?  Because in most other ways the human is the boss of the dog.

Sorry tyby I thought most people on here already knew about it as it is so often mentioned.Here's some good articles: Debunking the dominance myth
The "dominance" theory (Scroll down to get to article)
The Teamwork training approach

I think with sofa's it's a case of letting the dogs come up when invited and get off when told to do so.

>Never let him on the furniture and not in the bedroom or on the bed.  Always walk through doors before him.  If he snarls and bites then lay him on his side and hold him down - he will try to get out of this so make sure you hold his back end as well.  The trouble is they are strong dogs and as your sister in law is pregnant this might not be a good idea.<

The trouble with advice like this is that suddenly all we can think about is the dog going/not going on the sofa, whereas the problem is something much more fundamental and unlikely to be solved by a few "tips" over the internet.

Echo Jeangenie's comments and would add that confronting a dog that has already snapped and bitten would be, IMHO, entirely the wrong thing to do and as JG says, potentially disastrous.  I know there are people who still believe that going through doors before the dog will help, so when this dog bolts through the door ahead of SIL, what is she to do?  How exactly is she to change this dog's established unruly behaviour when it is stated in the OP that they have been unsuccessful at training him?

I suggest that your sister in law contacts a reputable behaviourist.

Good luck.

If you are near Teamwork training in Lincoln, do go - I can't recommend the trainer there highly enough :)

If you look at the site she does do behavioural/one to one training as well as classes, and the behavioural is probably what you want.

I think that some of the advice on this thread
has been good and some appalling - you do need to actually go to a reputable trainer who uses reward based methods and who can see the dog and what occurs between owner and dog. This particular trainer has herself turned around some seriously problem dogs and if your SIL takes on board what ever advice she is given, I am certain things will improve hugely :)

In the meantime, suggest your SIL uses management rather than force with the dog and just does the minimum required to keep him under control until they can see the Teamwork trainer :) Avoid confrontation and shouting, or grabbing at collar which is a real problem for many dogs.

I suspect he's basically been handled wrongly (as you say he's been held down etc) although with good intentions. He also sounds as if he's in a state of great conflict.

Good luck

Lindsay
x

I quite agree. All my dogs have lay on my settee, but they never growl or snap when asked to get off. A tit - bit at the right time should move stubborn dogs off without causing confontation. My first GSD bitch (always rescue's) was allowed to sleep on my bed as well. She had a fantastic temperament & never took any liberties. It was my descision to stop having dogs upstairs when I started a family. It's not very hygenic, especially if you have a bitch who has seasons. I decided it was enough to have dog hairs just downstairs as well!

I know many trainers tell you to only interact with the dog when you want to. Ignore him pestering & when he has obeyed a command ie lie down or sit, then make a big fuss of him. I think it will be hard work with him though. So many people let puppies run riot & don't set any boundaries. It's not long before that cuddly, adorable, little puppy is at that horrible bolshy 'larger than life Kevin' stage, then it's hard work.

Hi joey,

I agree with a lot of what has been said,  holding down a big dog like a lab on his side to show dominance I personally would not do either it is an old fashioned approach and I'm not going to say that it does not work, because it can work, but your SIL would need to always show dominance to control him and due to the way he treats her now, I doubt he would accept her as a dominant force at present, so scrap that idea in this situation.  Besides a lab is a big dog and she is pregnant and there are certainly other ways to deal with him.

However, I do understand why this approach was mentioned due to the fact that this lab is showing extreme dominance to the point of biting and it was a way for a quick fix to get control. From puppy hood these training methods may have worked, (though I would not use them myself) however, we have a large adolescent now who does not accept SIL as the boss and we need to take small significant steps to solve this.

The playing, it is great that she plays with him and tug rope is a great game, but she needs to teach  him when the game is over. What I have always done which has always worked is I'll have a great game of tug, ball, chase whatever it is and when I have had enough, (as a dog never does) the signal to the end of the game for me is a great big cuddle and good gir/boy and then walk away to the kitchen, make a coffee, back turned end of, dogs except game over. Of course this I have done from a small pup, so it would take a good couple of weeks for an adolescent to get that message.

Some people may use a treat to signify end of game, but you don't always have one of those handy so a cuddle is always available. :-)

Personally, I don't care whether a dog goes on a sofa, a bed (though I do sometimes feel that the bed can cause a dog to feel it has a higher status and I don't allow that) or whether a dog walks in front of me into the house that makes no difference to me.

My brothers GSD's and one of my mum's Cockers and her terrier have all tried to over-ride me at times, and here is where I will disagree with some other posters, I whole heartedly believe that I am the head bitch with mine and my families dogs and all the dogs accept me as this. I can control all of the dogs with a look or a change of voice and not one of them would ever dream of disobeying any command I give.

They have never had any punishment except for a stern voice and cold stare, for dogs who are shown nothing but love, this really rocks them to the paw your sister in law needs to hold her authority with her voice a dog like a child will know when it is meant, but your SIL needs to find that authourity or this dog is going to run rings around her.

This needs to be done especially with the lab, praise and reward trains them so much faster, but they also need taking in hand.

I agree more walking time is needed, much more praise and reward from her and cuddles, so that when she has to tell him to stop doing something or use the word No! He can feel the difference straight away.

The one thing I would never, ever tolerate is a dog snarling or biting, that dog would be out of my sight so fast it's feet would not touch the ground, if this dog so much as snarls at your SIL again, attach a lead to the dog, tell it Naughty, No! Whatever command you need to use and segregate the dog completely, in a crate a seperate room wherever is best to put him, and do this every time he so much as lifts his top lip to her or disobeys, It will get the message across that it is unacceptable and he will start to listen to her commands soon as he will not want to be segregated, there is no point going in guns blazing and raising her voice as he already does not listen to her, sepertion will enforce the commands.

Most dogs will never do this, most dogs will never need that stern voice or cold stare, most dogs will learn how to do everything just by praise and reward, but then there are dogs that will push the limits this is one of them and a stern hand needs to be taken with these type of dogs, your SIL needs to show authority here before this dog bites again, and with a new born baby it needs to be done fast.

I would recommend practised commands, and segregation at any refusal, and praise, praise, praise at compliance.

I think a NILIF (Nothing In Life Is Free) program could be helpful here, she would gain control without being confrontational.

All interactions and good things would only come on her terms and when he did something to earn them.

There are a number of version of this program if you do an internet search.

Keeping a lead on the dog in the house woudl be useful too, as if he getrs on furniture the end of the lead can be used in cnjuction with a command to 'off', then praise for compliance (he will ahve no choice).

However, I do understand why this approach was mentioned due to the fact that this lab is showing extreme dominance to the point of biting and it was a way for a quick fix to get control. From puppy hood these training methods may have worked, (though I would not use them myself) however, we have a large adolescent now who does not accept SIL as the boss and we need to take small significant steps to solve this.

I can't stress how important it is for the dog and owner to actually be seen. We've had moments before where the owner has totally misunderstood the dog - does anyone remember the aggressive labrador who was in fact a very normal puppy? It was going to be put to sleep :( and until we started to get to the bottom of it, if I remember, quite a few agreed put to sleep was the best option -when they knew nothing about the real situation.

We have to be very careful before advising on such a serious problem as aggression :) which is why I advised management just for the moment.

It's my suspicion the dog is in a state of conflict esp. if he has been held down etc - owners are often very perplexing to dogs as they often start to see them as unpredictable, and so called "dominance" can be due to fear and stress as much as any bolshiness. The owner will be shown by the trainer how to deal with any or all of their concerns, and that is much better than internet "guessing" in my book :)

Lindsay
x

You need to be careful about dealing with snaps and snarls though - if punishment is used to stop warnings (growls, snarls etc) then Will may stop using those warnings and go straight to the bite.

Re. the sofa - if he's shown aggression when he's on there, then he shouldn't be allowed on there and a strong 'off' command should be trained.  I've had to do this with Soli - although she's much better now, when she first arrive if she was on a sofa and I moved toward her - even accidentally - or moved something near her backside (an example would be to shift a blanket she'd sat on once) she would bite.  No warning - so she's not allowed on that sofa, and for a while not on my other one.  Now she's allowed on that one when she wants to - but that was only allowed once she had a good 'off' and was markedly improved with this issue.  She's still not allowed on my bed when I'm in it though.

Holding down a dog as JG has said is, quite simply, dangerous.  In dog-speak it means "I am a threat to you" at best, and at worst "I want to injure/kill you."  It's a bad idea for the strongest people - and a truly awful idea for someone who's already been snapped at and nipped.  Using from puppyhood is just as bad as the dog learns not to trust the owner - the owner is seen as unpredictable and aggressive.  This can happen with repeated use of any punishments.

The suggestion of a house line is a good one - that way the dog is under control, and should he hop on a sofa he can be removed without the SIL getting close enough to risk injury.

I agree with a lot of what has been said,  holding down a big dog like a lab on his side to show dominance I personally would not do either it is an old fashioned approach and I'm not going to say that it does not work,

Carrington I do agree with not wanting to show dominance, but sometimes we have to and it definitley worked in my case, but as you also say it was from puppyhood!

and to clarify, I do love to have my dogs on the sofa and the bed, but when Jasper was going through his really naughty phase it helped in his behviour when he was kept off. 

There is nothing better than cuddling your dog on the same seat as yourslef, but sometimes, if the dog is behaving in the manner of the OP's then it's time to use different measures.  Never have to be cruel and you never have to hurt the dog in any way, but they do have to know who is the one in control IMO!  

After re-reading the threads for this topic, I am most suprised that some decry others training methods. I have held my dog gently on it's side, this is not an aggresive act as some put it. I have never chastised my dogs. I think you will find that certain assistance groups eg: Guide dogs, Hearing dogs for the deaf and also the military carry out this as an assesment when choosing puppies, again this is not done in an aggresive manner. I have trained with some of the countries top Field Triallers who will also do this to a dog that is bolshy and can guarantee if a dog was trained through dominance it certaily would not give it all, all day long. To say this is treating aggression with aggression is misleading and incorrect. The old adage of biting a dog back or hitting it is aggresive.

People on this forum are here to give advice not to shout down others or try to belittle them as they 'have only had 2 dogs' is wrong and not at all helpful to the original poster.

The poster can read advice given and decide which method he believes to be correct and I hope for his sake the dominance that this dog is showing is cured which ever way he tries.

I think doing it to a puppy to guage it's reaction in an assessment is a world of difference to applying it as a method of behavioural manipulation.

Pregnant woman tries to put large, unruly dog with history of biting and snapping on its side ... I think there's going to be aggression, I fear the pregnant woman would come off worst.

That's what we're all worried about Floradora.  It's healthy to debate training methods, some of us feel they should be kind, fair and effective, but to advise people over the internet, without having seen the dog, to confront it seems irresponsible to me.

I think the whole tone of this debate was lowered by the remark:

<You say on your website Goldmali that you have had problems with aggressive dogs - maybe time to re-visit your training techniques?<

which comes across as rather insulting to Goldmali whose posts, IMHO, demonstrate experience, knowledge and common sense.

Pregnant woman tries to put large, unruly dog with history of biting and snapping on its side ... I think there's going to be aggression, I fear the pregnant woman would come off worst

Maybe you didn't read my post Lillith, had you have done you would have seen that I said the following:

The trouble is they are strong dogs and as your sister in law is pregnant this might not be a good idea.

Not sure why you included this advice in your post at all, therefore.

A very good book to read regarding training is : Michael Twist, The complete Guide to the Golden retriever. It is about Goldens but does go into depth about training methods. The dog does need far more excercise than being given at the moment. A good gundog class will lay the foundation training, sit, stay, recall etc even if you aren't interested in working a gundog, it will also be fun for the dog. The classes usually start in April and details can be obtained of groups around the country from Hilary Gould or Anne Greaves at the Kennel Club on 01485 600918.

Hi Joey, you have been given excellent advice from everyone on this thread bar one.....

Never use force on a dog that is showing tendencies to defy.... the best form of defence for a dog is attack....

However, I do and can sympathise with you... I live with a VERY stong willed & defiant dog, a 36k Labrador and although I battle with him mentally, physically I can control him.... but I'm not pregnant....

The biting or snapping is a problem.... which I dont have thankfully.... but very nearly did... had I been too soft... now I dont agree with the 'dominance' theory, nor with the pack theory, but I do take control as 'Master', he knows I will NOT give in.....

I NEVER play with him... every thing we do together is a training excersise...

I stand up... he is at the door before me.... if it takes 20 mins. I refuse to open door until he is calm
I sit down... he is on sofa before me.... I leave the room with him behind the door.... it can take up to 5 times for me leaving the room for him to realise that I wont sit down until he is off the sofa.... I have never hauled him off, he is allowed on the sofa, but I HAVE to be on it 1st and invite him....

I can shout 'bugger off' to all my other dogs and it has some effect, but I cannot raise my voice to Ollie, it sends him into a frantic 'playbow, buzztuck free-for-all.... everything I do with him is calculated....

However, when his is calm, which takes around 20mins of totally ignoring him, turning my back on him etc... he simply falls asleep in front of the fire....

While out excersising, walking etc... possibly 3 times per day... use this as a training opportunity also, not just out for piddles and poo's etc.... use it for brain work.... recall... take a training dummy for retrieves... use a sit stay, and come... WORK HIS BRAIN to its limits....

Not much help to you I know, but maybe some comfort knowing they are not alone ;)

I'm in a bit of a rush so just wanted to say that I believe this dog is almost certainly behaving the way he is because his owners misunderstand how to communicate with him. This can lead to a cycle of more and more confrontation which is normally extremely counter productive.

Once they see a good trainer like the Teamwork one, all will be put into perspective and I'm quite sure things will greatly improve. It's not fair for anyone to suggest X Y or Z esp. the more controversial ideas, because we cannot see the dog how do we know it is the dog "at fault?" for want of a better expression.

Dogs find us confusing if we don't know how to communicate. They can be threatened by strong body language (eg pointing finger, cross expression used at the wrong time) and can become defensive and confused. Let's not advocate anything which might do long term harm.....:) Let's let the trainer work with the dog and owner and give hands on advice.

Lindsay
x

I posted because I empathise with the OP regarding the labs behaviour, very similar to what I experienced with Jasper albeit he is younger.  I also have a grandson who was 1 year old at the time and I knew the bad behaviour could not continue if we were to have a secure environment for my grandchild.

I stand by my posts wholeheartedly, yes I have only had 2 dogs; one extremely easy and well behaved he was a dream.  However, Jasper who is 10 months old golden retriever -well let's just say he is strong willed!

There were times when I felt he was past all help, it may sound strange to all you experts out there but he was a trial from day one!  They can be quite frightening when they snarl and growl because they want their own way.

Had I not adopted some of the methods a breeder friend of mine advised, and also advice on this forum, I know Jasper could quite easily have become a dog with behaviour problems which no-one would want to be around.  Even the trainer gave up on him!

I have never smacked him, and when I have held him down on his side I talked to him all the time until he calmed down - this position we have found to be a bonus when we need to clean his ears!  I have done this from him being a puppy of 5 months - so maybe an older dog would not accept it quite so readily.  And as I said in my previous post maybe not ideal for a pregnant lady!
The spray can works, and is far better than him trying to 'hump' me or worse still someone else - all he needs now is a firm 'NO', but previously that didn't work and we found a method that did!

It isn't always possible to ensure your dog follows you through doors, some dogs prefer to race you, but it's good practice from a safety point of view, try and get them into the habit because one day it could save their life!

I know that I treat Jasper with lots of love, care and attention and he has free run downstairs and is allowed upstairs when it suits us and yes he comes onto the bed. (NILIF).

Jasper is not left alone for any longer than 2 hours, and he is taken on weekends away with us and will holiday with us later in the year! 
There is no way we are severe, harsh or cruel, nor do we treat him with aggression! As some posts have suggested.  He is pampered to a degree that some of you on here would find laughable.

I would never keep him in a cage, kennel or outside.  I don't think it is wrong for the people that do, but it isn't for me - I certainly would not ridicule anyone that keeps their animals in this way!  Different strokes for different folks!  We all do what we believe is best for our dog - and if we don't we shouldn't have them! 

In my opinion being a good dog owner is similar to being a good parent, and it doesn't necessarily follow that you are a better parent if you have lots of children!  And like children all dogs have different personalities and what works for one doesn't necessarily work for another.

As Floradora says, this forum is for people to give and receive advice - and the majority of us would prefer not to be berated for our views when we are trying to help - even if our views are not held by all!

even if our views are not held by all!

But as far as the TRAINING views go, the great majority of the really well respected trainers these days (and I'm not talking about those you see on TV) all agree that what you are suggesting is cruel, dangerous and totally inappropriate, as we now have much better ways. I USED to feel like you! Then I TRIED the kinder way and saw what a huge difference it does to a dog. Why don't you do the same? You might be pleasantly surprised.

And I don't agree there IS such a thing as a Golden puppy of 10 months that is really strong willed and hard work -not unless it was really badly bred eg. puppy farm originated etc. Goldens live to please, you just need to find the way to unlock that great potential. It doesn't sound like you have found it if you have to correct your dog by holding him down and spraying him with compressed air.It sounds to me like you have misunderstood your dog a lot, young Goldens often PLAY by growling and snarling, it is not done due to being aggressive, it is done in play. Sadly I see this all the time, people misunderstanding their dog, often Goldens.

In my many years of experience Goldmali and also my mothers who also owned Labs and Goldens there is such a thing as a strong willed Golden retriever but not nasty and no not all strong willed dogs come from puppy farms. Obviously those poor creatures that are from puppy farms have or may have behavioural as well as health problems. All puppies play with their siblings through rough play, play biting, barking and growling, snapping and growling at humans is not acceptable behaviour

Growling at a human in play can be PERFECTLY acceptable if you understand it for what it is and can read the dog's other signals, and I will still not agree that a ten month old Golden pup can be very hard work and certainly not strong willed enough to EVER warrant such harsh treatment as an alpha roll -but then after having had Malinois I see training a Golden as a holiday. :D I don't think anybody mentioned SNAPPING, just growling -and this is where I feel MariaC simply misunderstands her pup. Even my little Papillon growls a lot during play and there isn't an ounce of nastiness in him and I wouldn't dream of not letting him talk during play, as that is what it is -talk. I certainly wouldn't push him on his side and hold him down for it.

You've quite possibly had more Golden experience than me, but I have had 10 (plus 3 Golden crosses) over a period of 26 years so I have seen a BIT of the breed. :) Plus having close dealings with many others when working as a vet nurse, dog groomer and kennel maid.

With respect, from your first sentence globmaldi it strikes me that you don't have much experience of goldens! 

Had you read my post and understood it then you would notice I don't have the problems now, these have been resolved.

Jasper was certainly not play growling when he was resource guarding his bone, I can assure you on that score, (likewise the OP's dog doesn't seem to be play biting) Again I worked through this with the advice from a very experienced breeder of goldens and solved the problem, I can now take any food from him!  He is not a frightened cowering little dog, he is a strong, confident, happy and content boy - not an aggressive bone in his body!

Also going back to your website - and I do know you won't mind my bringing this point up as you have said in the past, if people have a website they are open to other peoples opinions, good or bad and should expect it to be discussed!  You mention 6 of your dogs which have had problems with aggression and one that was taught to attack on command - this was a golden, so  again with all due respect you are probably not the person that should be advising about behaviour :D

Just to clarify, Jasper came from a KC registered litter and he has an exceptional   pedigree on both sides - so not really a puppy from a puppy farm as you suggest and not from an 'accidental cross breed litter' as you have had :P

your first sentence globmaldi

Hi crmaib

Had you read my post and understood it then you would notice I don't have the problems now, these have been resolved.

Jasper was certainly not play growling when he was resource guarding his bone, I can assure you on that score, (likewise the OP's dog doesn't seem to be play biting) Again I worked through this with the advice from a very experienced breeder of goldens and solved the problem, I can now take any food from him!  He is not a frightened cowering little dog, he is a strong, confident, happy and content boy - not an aggressive bone in his body!

Yes but you resolved them by using aggression and fear methods on your dog -not by using kind methods. And using an alpha roll to sort resource guarding -words fail me I'm afraid. You were, as many others have pointed out, lucky that it didn't backfire on you -but then to RECOMMEND such an appalling method to others makes it even worse. Almost any dog can be taught to behave if you scare it enough and act aggressively enough towards you -doesn't at all mean though that it is a GOOD way of doing it. Nor does it mean that the dog won't one day have had enough and react. Less likely in Goldens, VERY likely in many other breeds.

You mention 6 of your dogs which have had problems with aggression and one that was taught to attack on command - this was a golden, so  again with all due respect you are probably not the person that should be advising about behaviour :-D

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: You've never met any dog of any breed then that can do manwork? It's not just GSDs and Malis. Or any person into working trials or schutzhund or similar? Never seen any demonstrations of it?  A well trained dog can be called OFF in seconds -as could my old Leo.

Just to clarify, Jasper came from a KC registered litter and he has an exceptional   pedigree on both sides - so not really a puppy from a puppy farm as you suggest and not from an 'accidental cross breed litter' as you have had :-p

Even puppy farm bred dogs are often KC registered and can have good pedigrees. My point was that puppy farm bred Goldens are the ones known for poor temperament as breeding selectively for temperament simply hasn't been done. (At one point, 60% of Goldens in breed rescue originated from one particular pet shop and many of those had temperament problems.) Just out of interest, what do you call exceptional? I'd interpret "exceptional" as "better than average". So better than what?

Can't see what one litter of accidental crossbred pups has to do with ANYTHING discussed here? Apart from, of course, the continued personal attacks.

I think we are going off at a tangent again. I have never said that dogs don't growl when playing. I think if you read my post I said it was perfectly natrual. I too would never stop my lot growling when playing but there is a difference when it is done in an aggressive manner towards humans. My 11 will make a dreadful racket with each other when playing but as experienced people on the board will know there is a marked difference in play growling and aggression. You need to be able to read your dogs actions. This constant sniping between posters isn't nice and doesn't help the original poster at all who by now probally feels 'why did I bother'. Can we not just give advice without be-littling others please

At last someone without an ego, I quite agree with you Rachael, thank goodness someone has come along with manners and common sense Maria :)

>Can we not just give advice without be-littling others please<

Maria, think hard about who this applies to.

I agree Floradora - there is a world of difference between play growling and growling in aggression and I'm sure all dog owners can tell one from the other.  I also agree with your last couple of sentences too - things just keep escalating.