hello, we have a 3 years old staffy bitch, in august 2005 she started having fits she had one every month till feb 2006, we took her to the vets who just said to keep an eye on her , anyway she had no fits from feb 2006 till now and started 2 weeks ago she had 4 in 1 night, then she had another last night she is due to go to the vets next as her yearly booster is due, i just wondered will they put her on tablets or is it best for her to take nothing its really awful when she as one i find it very upsetting, can anyone offer me any advice please    

Sorry to hear about your bitch's fits; I know how distressing they are for the owner - usually far more so than for the dog! Usually it's best to keep dogs off medication if they're fitting no more than once a month - more frequently than that makes medication more likely. Have a read of this link - it will give you a lot of helpful information. Good luck!

thanks for the link very helpful 

Jay
there is also a condition that affects staffordshires called L2 HGa (Hydroxtglutaric aciduria) that has symptoms that involve fits and can have similar symtoms to epilepsy
There is now a test for this condition to determine whether the individual dog/bitch is clear of the gene, a carrier of the gene or affected (ie has the condition)
Take a read of this link which explains the testing in more detail
http://www.aht.org.uk/sci_diag_disc_genetic_l2.html

What is L2-HGA?

L-2-HGA (L-2-hydroxyglutaric aciduria) in Staffordshire Bull Terriers is a neurometabolic disorder characterised by elevated levels of L-2-hydroxyglutaric acid in urine, plasma and cerebrospinal fluid. L-2-HGA affects the central nervous system, with clinical signs usually apparent between 6 months and one year (although they can appear later).

What are the symptoms of L2-HGA?

Symptoms include epileptic seizures, "wobbly" gait, tremors, muscle stiffness as a result of exercise or excitement and altered behaviour.

forgot to add this-

This condition manifests itself in varied ways with affected dogs displaying behavioural changes and dementia, anxiety attacks, having full blown seizures, as well as exercise intolerance and ataxia (unsteady gait), tremors and muscular stiffness

If you need any further help on this please do not hesitate to PM me

i have heard of this condition before when i  take my girl to the vets i will ask about this, is L2HGa treatable, she doesnt seem to have any behavioural changes and she loves exercise she is such a lovely dog, always happy and ready to give you lots of kisses,

Hi Jay
there is medication you can give but there are varying degrees of this condition-
Its also surprising how few vets have even heard of this condition :(

You would be best printing off some of the info from the AHT site to take with you-
my vet sees lots of staffys yet when we went for the blood test he had never heard of it

It might be worth getting a second opinion about why your bitch is getting these fits, rather than just keeping an eye on her as your vet says!

It also might be worth thinking about getting a titre test done to establish whether she needs a booster. 

Unhealthy dogs should not have vaccinations they are more likely to sufer adverse reactions.  Also, the majority of vaccine manufactuers recommend boosters every 3 years not every year.

 

Also, the majority of vaccine manufactuers recommend boosters every 3 years not every year.
Depends whether the OP was talking about lepto though Maria.  Personally I wouldn't vaccinate an unhealthy dog for anything.

If it turns out to be idiopathic epilepsy (and that's a name given when no cause for the symptoms can be discovered) remember that epileptic dogs are also healthy dogs. Nobody would say that a dog with HD or deafness was 'unhealthy' and therefore shouldn't be vaccinated.

We've had to agree to disagree before as to our definitions of healthy dogs JG! :) 

True - I tend to go with a vet's definition! :D Seriously, having owned an epileptic dog I know from first hand experience that they are in every other way as healthy (as in 'not ill') as any other dog. Epilepsy is no reason to not vaccinate.

Epilepsy is no reason to not vaccinate.
Again, that is your opinion. :)

Based on professional veterinary advice. :)

thanks for all your replys, im a little confused now if the manufactuers recommend boosters every 3 years why does a vet recommend them every year, and what is a titre test  

Different vaccines need boosters at different intervals; leptospirosis need boostering every year because the immunity lasts no longer than about 9 or 10 months. Most of the others (depending on manufacturer) will provide guaranteed immunity for 3 years (no guarantee after that). Many vets will give the lepto every year and the others at either two or three years, with no reported side-effects.

A titre test is a blood test which is sent off for measurement of the level of circulating immunity. Some people have this done to find out whether their dog should be boostered that year or not. It's reliable, but an additional cost.

you say you have owned a epileptic dog, what did your vet do was the dog put on some sort of treatment and how old was your dog when it started having fits,

My dog was 2 when she had her first fit, and within 6 months she was fitting about 4 times a week, so she was put on phenobarbitone. It took a few months to get the dosage right but the fits became less and less frequent until after a couple of years they stopped completely. We kept her on that dosage for about a year, then under the vet's direction we very gradually reduced the dose (by about a quarter of a tablet and see how that went for a couple of months) until after about 2 years we'd weaned her off then completely, and she was still fit-free. That was 5 years ago, and touch wood, she's still fine - she'll be 12 next week.

The fits bothered us far more than they did her, and she lived a completely normal life - she was never an 'ill' dog. :)

And yes, she was vaccinated annually.

well as i said in my first post my dog had not had a fit since last feb 2006, then on the 23 jan 2007 in the middle of the night she had 4 within an hour, then another one friday night, i will ask the vet about her having a blood test

It would certainly be a good idea to get her tested for L2-HGA as that's a breed-specific condition with seizures as a symptom. Good luck! :)

It is confusing so hopefully this will help:

Parvo / Distemper vaccines - most manufacturers advise a booster every 3 years.  However, research shows that once a dog has immunity to these then this immunity usually lasts for 7 years maybe life!

Lepto is the vaccine which is recommended yearly - now this is the one that causes most adverse reactions. I was advised by a professor specialising in vaccines and titre tests that Lepto vaccine only covers one or two strains of the virus and not necessarily the ones found in the UK - the vaccine may only be effective for 3-9 months so there is a considerable amount of time if your dog had the vaccine he/she wouldn't be protected anyway. 

Titre test is a simple blood test which shows whether or not a booster is necessary - this is what Virbac (vaccine manufacturer) advised me after my dog had to be PTS because of a booster - the Lepto was the one in question.

Also vaccines can cause epilepsy - so I'd definitely steer clear of any vaccination, at least until you have the correct diagnosis for your dog.  Again a second opinion cannot do any harm and much better to be safe than sorry.

The vaccine debate is a bit of a minefield and no doubt there will be lots more posts for and against - prepare yourself for more confusion

>research shows that once a dog has immunity to these then this immunity usually lasts for 7 years maybe life!

I understand some research has shown some dogs have shown immunity for more than 7 years after last vaccination.  I have never seen it described as usually though.  Of course, unless those dogs have lived in sterile laboratory conditions it cannot be said that their immunity is due entirely from vaccination because immunity is gained from exposure to disease also, even a dog never vaccinated can be found to have immunity. 
As long as any dogs are shown not to gain life long immunity you need to regularly booster as you will not know about your own particular dog.  The best way of ensuring your dog is always covered is to be guided by the minimum cover than boosters can provide as indicated by the bulk of research which of course defines the protocols used within the veterinary profession.
Your dog may have died following a booster but, according to your account, it was due to bacteria introduced by the injection itself a similar risk would be generated by a titre test surely.
Parainfluenza cover is also given annually with the lepto.

Your dog may have died following a booster but, according to your account, it was due to bacteria introduced by the injection itself a similar risk would be generated by a titre test surely.

The account you seem to refer to about Spangler's death is:
There are three possible explanations. One is that Spangler somehow had the bacteria on his skin and it was pushed inwards by the needle. Another is that it came from the needle. And a third is that it came from the vaccine.

The above quite clearly gives 3 possible explanations, and possible explanations is all that we could give because the vets themselves were totally out of their depth on this one. 

However, in addition to the bacteria which you seem to pick up on time after time, had you read it thoroughly you would have noticed that blood tests revealed that Spangler's thyroid was suppressed, his liver was damaged, and his bloodwork revealed anomalies. "The vet told us that Spangler's skin was dying and couldn't be stitched back. He said it was creeping nephritis. He would have to undergo months of skin grafts and he might have his front leg amputated!

All these symptoms started within approx 12 hours after a yearly booster he did not need.

If some vets are hell bent on boostering our pets then the least they can do is take the vaccine manufacturers advice and booster every three years - to do otherwise questions their integrity and motives.

And going back to the topic - unhealthy dogs should not be vaccinated and epilepsy (although someone said is not a health problem) quite clearly is! 

 

Epilepsy is a condition, not an illness. There is a very clear difference between the two - medical conditions exist where there is no ill-health. Would you say a deaf person (as an example of another condition) is ill or unhealthy? Are allergy-sufferers unhealthy? Epileptic fits can be medically induced in every person (a high body temperature is a common trigger; there are many others); it's just that those who have seizures in day-to-day life have a lower threshhold than the norm. Because seizures can be induced in us all, that would mean we are all unhealthy! Human epileptics have struggled for centuries against the stigma of being thought ill!

I did say unhealthy animals should not be vaccinated!  (as per manu guidelines) and as vaccines have been known to cause epilepsy in dogs - then vaccines should be avoided at all costs if a dog already has epilepsy.

I fail to see your comparison of deafness and epilepsy! But if you want my opinion:
I have a close relative who is deaf and a very good friend who is epileptic.  Now, I know there would not be a problem my deaf relative having a vaccine,  but it could quite easily trigger off a fit or worse in my epileptic friend.

Just going back to topic - unhealthy dogs should not be vaccinated.

>vaccines should be avoided at all costs if a dog already has epilepsy

If that was true then my epileptic dog would have had problems from being vaccinated, and she didn't. How can you explain that?

Maybe the vaccines caused the epilepsy in the first place?

No, because if so, boosters would caused further fits, and they didn't (and still don't). The trigger was believed to be ACP (frequently implicated as a trigger, but there is no proof) used as a sedative prior to minor surgery.

No, because if so, boosters would caused further fits, and they didn't (and still don't)

How do you know it's not the boosters causing the fits?  It doesn't have to be immediately after the vaccine to be vaccine related! 

I'm also really surprised your vet considers boostering every 3 years with an epileptic dog

>How do you know it's not the boosters causing the fits?

Because if you'd read my post you'd know that she hasn't fitted for at least 7 years, and has been on no anti-convulsant medication for 4 or 5 years, and is still having annual boosters.

>I'm also really surprised your vet considers boostering every 3 years with an epileptic dog

I'm not, because he's examined her and knows she's perfectly healthy and not ill! :rolleyes:

If that was true then my epileptic dog would have had problems from being vaccinated,

...maybe the epilepsy was triggered by the booster vacs in the first place ?

Snap, Maria :-D

great minds and all that tyby :D :D :D

Your dog may have died following a booster but, according to your account, it was due to bacteria introduced by the injection itself a similar risk would be generated by a titre test surely.

Isabel - I really think it's a bit insensitive to use someone's tragedy to try to justify your own argument, especially when you haven't even got your facts right.

But MariaC uses her own dog's death to justify scaring people out of vaccinating.

Goldmali - you are being equally insensitive. 
Like several of us on here, Maria just highlights the dangers of over-vaccination and urges people to do their own research to enable them to make an informed choice.

But she also conveniently ignores any evidence that contradicts her own belief, so it's down to others to put the other side of the story so that people can make a balanced judgement. :)

I also firmly believe that the WAY a point is put across makes all the difference. Sadly, the way everyone in what I call the anti vaccine brigade (headed by Catherine Watt since many years and yes I noticed on Maria's website a link to her) gets their point across seems to be very aggressively (much like certain raw feeders) -eg. "Do it our way or your dog WILL be ill and/or die". It's scare tactics all along, which certainly makes me for one completely switch off and ignore what they say. Had they said it in a calmer manner, more along the lines of "This is my view and experience, but I accept that others might have their owns views and different experiences" people would be FAR more inclined to listen and maybe learn something of value.

Bit like why it's more effective to clicker train a dog and/or use treats, than shout and force it. :)

Catherine Watt ???
Do you mean Catherine O'Driscoll?

I would also like to say that yes, some people do put their anti boostering views strongly but then they are the ones who have often gone through dreadful vaccine related injuries and loss so it is hardly surprising that they feel a need to try to prevent others from having the same experiences.  Probably the pro-boostering 'brigade' (to use your own term :)) could also say that their personal experiences of illnesses like parvo make them want to encourage everyone to booster regularly.  Personally I don't think anyone should be saying one way or the other is right - it isn't a decision anyone should make for anyone else IMO.

Catherine Watt ???
Do you mean Catherine O'Driscoll?

yes that's her "stage name" LOL but her real name is Watt.

Really?  I always thought O'Driscoll was her real name - will have to check that one out.  Anyone wanting to read her books though should look under Catherine O'Driscoll or the Canine Health Concern website http://www.canine-health-concern.org.uk/ :)

Nope she told me way back in 1993 or so that she used her maiden name for writing and not her married name -which she always used to sign letters with then. Back when it was the Canine Health CENSUS.

Nope she told me way back in 1993 or so that she used her maiden name for writing and not her married name

O'Driscoll is Catherine's maiden name - lots of professional women keep their maiden name for business purposes.
Watts was her ex husbands name.  She has now remarried but continues to use O'Driscoll for business.  

And as you quite rightly point out golmaldi, there is a link to Catherine's website from mine.

Those of us who've lost animals as a direct result of various routine procedures (mine through spaying) should realise that their unhappy cases are very rare, isolated incidents, and that scare-mongering is both pointless and unkind. There are good and bad to all procedures, and both advantages and disadvantages should be included in any discussion. :)

scare-mongering is both pointless and unkind.

Well, I just wish that someone had scare-mongered me a few years ago.  Would have spared me the heartache of watching my poor dog die after his 'very rare and isolated' adverse reaction....

tyby, watching an animal die of any disease is painfully which is why it is important that do our best to minimise the risk of all the possible events.

But MariaC uses her own dog's death to justify scaring people out of vaccinating

I use my experience to inform people - very different from trying to scare people!

And, as I've said on numerous occasions, I am not anti vaccination, just anti over vaccination or vacinating unhealthy dogs.

>just anti over vaccination or vacinating unhealthy dogs

There's a problem of definition, though, isn't there?

There's a problem of definition, though, isn't there?

Quite simply no!  Anything more than the manufacturers guidelines could be defined as over vaccination - so no more then every 3 years for parvo & distemper.  And less often if you titre test and find out a booster isn't necessary!

I was thinking more of the definition of 'unhealthy'. Would you, for instance, automatically categorize a diabetic as being 'unhealthy'?