You may have read about two young men being killed by an underground train near Barking on Saturday.   Apparently both come from this area (south-east Essex) and are both recognised as "graffiti artists".

Now there are "tributes" being posted in the local paper to these "decent" young men.   Don't misunderstand me - I'm really sorry to think of two families being deprived of sons - one of the young men also had a child - but I do not think that spraying graffiti all over trains, which will cost thousands of pounds to clean off, is the action of "decent young men".

Margot (aka Mrs Grumpy)

Here here !!!!!!!

ditto margot (from a fellow grump!)

Margot I agree totally and said it was their own stupid fault ;)

Idiots :rolleyes::rolleyes:

Yes I have sympathy if the families were trying to help re adjust them but I very much doubt it ;)

Lucy
xx

(aka Miss Grumpy :D )

Totally agree with you all :(

I'm afraid that they got what they deserved :(

Daisy

Poor train driver, too.

They were old enough to know what they were doing.

My sympathies lie with the driver and the people who had to deal with the accident. Must have been awful.

Val

There are comments such as ".... a decent hard working young man,a father of one, who I was proud to know.He was a great artist, no he should not have been where he was,but he did not deserve to lose his life over this" and "He died doing some thing he was passionate about."

He was BREAKING THE LAW!  No wonder the country is going down the pan, if this is the way that people think nowadays!

Margot

What's the difference between a graffiti artist and a vandal ?. Just wondering.

I think the difference is whether or not the owner of the property painted minds or not.

Can't see any difference myself:

Definition of graffiti: the illegal or unauthorized defacing of a building, wall or other edifice or object by painting or otherwise marking it with words, pictures or symbols

Definition of vandalism: One who willfully or maliciously defaces or destroys public or private property

Daisy

He was a great artist :rolleyes::rolleyes: Total cr*p

I am sorry but I am sick of listening to the LAME excuses of these wasters :rolleyes:

I think the difference is whether or not the owner of the property painted minds or not.

Belfast was Queen of the graffiti artists' cities and to an extent still is. No matter how mach you objected to having your gable painted, you didn't tell these "artists" to get lost if you valued your health. The subject of most of the graffiti was paramilitaries of various flavours - though I did once live in a flat opposite a giant pink elephant of indeterminate religious belief! :)

Because you could make out what the pictures were supposed to be the painters were hailed by associated sociologists as "graffiti artists". Before that they were just sectarian vandals. So I presume a "graffiti artist" is one who can create a picture rather than just inane squiggles. The Belfast "artists" even had bus tours of their work (buses mainly containing gullible US citizens), and a number of under-employed and over-paid so-called academics wrote hagiographical books about them.

There's definitely a difference between 'wall art' and graffiti, although it's very difficult to define when one becomes the other. If a great masterpiece which disguises an eyesore was painted on a wall without the owner's permission, is it art or vandalism? Which leads on to the great unanswerable question "What is Art?".

Which leads on to the great unanswerable question "What is Art?".

Not, imo, unmade beds or piles of bricks. Whilst the pink elephant opposite my flat had no great artistic merit, he was a cheery character and came closer to art, again imo.

If a great masterpiece which disguises an eyesore was painted on a wall without the owner's permission, is it art or vandalism

If the wall artist wants to paint walls, even if they are an eyesore, (s)he needs the permission of the wall owner first. I don't think my walls are hard to look at but no doubt someone would think they would be improved by the addition of their art. And if they added it without my permission, I should be very angry even if the painting was a masterpiece!

Not only the owner but the local Council too

http://www.bbc.co.uk/threecounties/culture/sunflower.shtml

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder

I think the point there though Cheryl is that it was her own home she painted. :)

Point is that even though she owns her house she still needed permission granted to keep the painting.  Not everyone wants to face her art every time they draw the curtains but most people in her village did and so she was eventually allowed to keep it. What happens though if she decides to change it to a picture depicting a war zone, an unmade bed or a pile of rotting rubbish? 

Going back to Banksy, he is obviously creative and many people admire his work but would the majority these people feel the same if the work was on the wall opposite their front window?  The law is there to back the majority.

Am I rambling? :D

Personally I'd rather look at a cleverly designed and skilfully applied mural than a blank wall. But I'd rather look at a blank wall than the "Jezza is a w****r" type of graffiti! Both could be there illegally, but one is definitely more aesthetically pleasing and less objectionable than the other. :)

I agree but even a tasteful piece of art doesn't appeal to everyone.  I really like Gordana's house but not everyone agrees.  If every blank wall was covered in art would you feel the same way?

Gordana has done other art about our town (legally) and often involves children. Some of the art was on walls of underpasses, of which we have many.  Unfortunately, the art itself has been subjected to vandalism by spray can. :rolleyes:

There is a lovely old cottage in our village. The owner has painted the whole thing bright pink with blue window ledges

He might not deserve to be knocked down a train for graffiti, but he wants locking up for a severe lack of artistic taste!

You dont live near Hereford do you
There is on like that when you are about 5 miles outside Hereford, and thats was the sign the kids looked for when we took my Ex's son back LOL
Lea :)

That's the trouble with subjective things. One person's art is another person's eyesore.

Good points Cheryl.  Think we're on the same side here. :)

>Whilst the pink elephant opposite my flat had no great artistic merit, he was a cheery character and came closer to art,

Jas, I've been wracking my brains about this all day...where is/was the pink elephant mural?? I live in Belfast and my work takes me into most areas and I'm dying to know which area had the pink elephant (and if it's still there).

I am glad to say that a lot of the paramilitary murals in many areas are being replaced with more appropriate cultural references.  Of course, some of the 'famous' ones remain to keep the tourists rolling in in their bus loads :rolleyes:

When we were house hunting for our first house, we went to see a little terraced house one dark and rainy winter night.  The house was lovely and we went for a second viewing a few days later...only to discover in the light of day that the view from the front window was a huge paramilitary mural   Not even a well drawn one at that!  The owners had expressed their surprise that the house had not sold quickly as other houses in the area were being snapped up.  I didn't have the heart to tell them the 'view' was undoubtedly putting people off...it's not like they could do anything about it after all :(

Hi ShaynLola, it was on Abercorn St off the Lisburn Road and near the City Hospital. But I'm talking about when I was a 4th year medical student and that was 28years ago! So the wall, never mind my pink elephant have probably long gone. :)

Little wonder that the house wouldn't sell. :) Painting things is a pain in NI. My mother (a Prod) saw some young toughs painting the kerb outside her house red, white and blue for the 12th. She rushed out to stop them, forgetting that she had a long, sharp kitchen gulley in her hand. Which, in her ire, she proceeded to cut herself badly with. The lads were so impressed by the little old lady with the big, bloody knife that they promised to come back and paint the kerbstones over in grey. Which they did! So much for the tough guys. :D :D

LOL @ your Mum :D :D

The locals in the village I'm from were keen on painting everything too.  A huge anchor that had been dredged up from a sunken vessel was mounted by the sea front as a kind of monument...within 24 hours it was red, white & blue :rolleyes:

I think you're right about your pink elephant (and possibly his/her wall) being long gone.  I lived around that area whilst I was at Queen's (10 years ago ) and don't recall ever seeing it.  Pity...I was really intrigued! :)

Next time I'm over I shall visit the site and have a look for it. :)

Have to say, my first reaction to a lot of these undoubtedly tragic events is "well, they won't do that again".

>My sympathies lie with the driver and the people who had to deal with the accident.

Absolutely, and with their families of course, but there are many ways of avoiding being run over by trains ... or being shot by Lincolnshire farmers whilst breaking into their houses ... or ... or

M.

Whilst I think it was a terrible waste of life and wouldn't wish it on anyone, I couldn't help saying at the time that the punishment fitted the crime.

:(
I think it's very very sad that these young men have been killed. Vandalism is of course illegal....but they have paid with their lives! Hardly a punishment that fits the crime in my opinion. These men were not murderers, or paedophiles, they were vandals. I know that vandalism is anti-social behaviour but how anyone can think they deserved to die is totally beyond me.

If my post implied that I thought they 'deserved to die', then it was expressed too strongly. I do, however, absolutely feel that people are responsible for not putting themselves in harm's way, and do have a huge amount of sympathy for the people who will have been traumatised by these boys' stupidity.

M.

Hardly a punishment that fits the crime

It was more of a consequence than a punishment.....

>It was more of a consequence than a punishment.....

You're right.  Claiming tiredness affected my logical thinking. 

Many young people seem to be developing a respect for graffiti artists (vandals in my book).  My niece who is taking A level Art was delighted to see "work" by a famous vandal called Banksy (sp?) when we were in Brick Lane last year and actually took photographs of the paintings. Prints of his stuff actually commands a lot of money. 

Just found this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banksy

My son gave me a book at Christmas that he thought I might like because I like art.  It is called Banksy 'Wall and Piece'  Apparently - I hadn't heard of him before, this Banksy is a graffitti artist and this is a record of some of it.  It is very clever but it rather glorifies this 'art form' and encourages others to think it is right to go out and do it.   I suppose people will always express themselves in this fashion -   I hate to see sheer vandalism though - there is a difference - not sure where the line is drawn.

I think the line is quite clear as it is illegal to deface public or private property which is what they are doing regardless of how artistic the vandal is.  Like you have said individuals like Banksy glorify the activity and only serve to encourage it.

I think it is anti social behaviour and agree that anything that encourages it is wrong.

If they want to paint/draw then do it on paper or canvas :)

I have no sympathy for them at all it is grafitti in my eyes and as far as I am concerned they put themselves in that position , I dont feel sorry that they lost thier lives  as they brought it all on themselves through thier own stupidity.
My whole family have worked on the railways my Dad/ uncle were train drivers  my OH is a signaller I have over the years heard many dreadful stories about idiots on the railway many that dont even reach the papers .
My hubby has come home many times distressed as in his job he is the first point of contact  with drivers who have just killed someone .... some children........ I also feel for the men who have to go and check what they have hit .
I dont think enough information is given about the dangers of railways ie what actually happens to your body when hit by a train or when you touch the third rail just to say it kills is not enough I could be more graphic but my post would be removed... my brother and I were given all the information when we were children by my Dad as he had seen it first hand it worked on us !

My father in law worked on the railways for over 30 years....so believe me, I know the harm and distress these incidents cause.
I still don't think they deserved to die though.
People take risks and break the law all the time. People who speed, people who drink and drive, people who take drugs. The list could go on forever! People who do any of these things are risking their own lives as well as the lives of others.....but do you really think they all deserve to die? Of course not.
We shouldn't be making judgements about these men....we didn't know them, or their families.
We should also bear in mind that it could so easily be someone we love next time. And how would we feel if others sat back in judgement and said they deserved to die?
:(

You are right nobody deserves to die but if somebody takes a risk then it is only one persons fault at the end of the day :)

Such a drastic consequence might at least deter others from taking the same risk.

You would hope so but I doubt it will unfortunately :(

I did not say they deserved to die I merely pointed out that they get no sympathy whatsoever from me as it is thier own doing putting themselves in that position in the first place.
My sympathies lie with the poor people who have to pick up the pieces.

I wouldn,t call them graffitti artists .I would call them vandals.
And now the poor train driver has to live with the fact he killed those two people.

>I still don't think they deserved to die though.<

They did not deserve to die, and had they not been trespassing, and had they not been on the railtrack, they would not have been killed by a train.

Margot

Where abouts are you in the Essex area Lokis mum? I know it well!