Hi everyone, I'm new to Champdogs, and I'm hoping you can all help....

I bought Daisy and Douggie in August (Cavies born on 16th June).  I am having a little trouble with Daisy.  They are now 5 months  and having been toilet training very well.  They almost always ask to go outside for the toilet now.  Daisy is having a few issues though.  She is urinating in her bed.  She is asleep when she does so (She has been in her crate sleeping next to me and done it!).  She also urinates in my spare bedrooms.  She rarely goes in there as the door is shut, but every time she goes in either one, she wees a small amount (and on occasion, poos).

I know that Douggie is now ready for his castration (according to the Vet), and I was wondering if she was nearing her season, and this might effect her bladder control?  The vet said she would probably grow out of it, but I wanted to check with you guys as you wil, no doubt, have seen this before.  She sleeps through the night, and as far as I am aware, she doesn't wee every night.  She used to cry as a baby puppy to go outside, so I know she'd ask if she knew she needed the toilet.

Have you any advice?

Additionally, Douggie wees on our bed?  He is not allowed up there as a rule, but sometimes he sneaks up.  On all 3 occasions, he has urinated, even if he's just been outside and had a wee?

This is all a little strange, and I just wondered if you had any experience of this?

Thanks for any help you can give!

I'm rather surprised that you're thinking of castrating Douggie so young, particularly seeing that he's a coated breed. Have you thought about waiting till he's older and fully grown? ( months is usually considered to be the very earliest age for castration.) It'd be difficult with Daisy coming into season in the next few months, but perhaps one of them could stay with a good friend or relative for the duration?

If you have your male castrated early it will affect his coat(the same applies to bitch cavaliers spayed early)

I take it you bought the puppies together from the same breeder :rolleyes: @ rising 5 months I would expect a single puppy to be house trained

I bought them as babies (9 weeks), so we have been house training them. It ahs been going very well, apart from this issue...

Well, I did think about holding off with Douggie for a year or so, but the Vet assures me he is ready to be castrated. I wont be doing it until he is 6 months old anyway.  Even though his testicles have descended, I think he is a bit young to go under anaesthetic at the moment.  I want to avoid any agression towards Daisy, which is starting to show a little, although we have it under control. 

I don't really have anyone that can have Daisy for the length of her season, so it would be difficult to manage the situation, especially as they hate being apart.  They are brother and sister, so I really don't want any babies!  I want to wait for Daisy to have her first season before I have her spayed, so it seemed like the only real option.

Believe me you will regret having him castrated early as he will end up with a cottonwool coat & as testosterone is directly linked to correct growth you risk him having other problems

It shouldn't be to hard to keep them apart for your bitches season,I would prefer kenneling to early castration

Be warned BTW if you do go ahead with the early castration, he will not be sterile immediately there is no actually veterinary guidance as to when castrated dogs become sterile so you will still need to keep them apart when she has her season, there are cases of castrated dogs being able to produce litters(proved by DNA testing the puppies), even if he is sterile castration will not prevent him from mating bitches-just a heads up for you. I'm surprised your vet did not advise you of this-on the otherhand it's not in their interest to do so, otherwise people would have their dogs castrated at a more appropriate age & they might lose income

As to the weeing on beds etc it is very hard to house train two or more puppies as you cannot give each puppy your full attention  so it may well be one of the puppies is showing signs of wanting to toilet & you miss them

Even if Douggie is castrated early he won't be sterile immediately so they'll need to be kept separate during Daisy's season anyway. You say he's showing aggression towards Daisy - in what circumstances? When out walking (on lead or off?), or when they're being fed? How do you stop the aggression?

Its mainly over their dog chews.  Food time is fine, they just swap dishes constantly, but no growling.  Walk time, they behave perfectly.  Sometimes he gets a little vigorous at play time.  He growls at her a bit, but she takes it in her stride.  If he ever gets too much (I'm not talking bearing teeth or anything, just a bit over zealous), we just separate them and distract him another kind of play, i.e fetch or something.

I never knew that he might not be immediately sterile!  That could cause major issues as they are going to stay with some other cavies whilst I'm on holiday in January...  One of her bitches will be in heat!  might have to rethink my plans!

I don't think that arguing over chews will be cured by castration :) It's a normal thing for young dogs (or even older dogs) to argue over treats etc :)

Daisy

Absolutely, I can't give mine anything that lasts more than a few minutes, or we end up with my boy sitting on two and eating one, while the others look on crossly.

Please reconsider neutering your boy, at least so young, it really does often make the fur awful - thick and woolly, and you will totally lose the flat silky coat that is the glory of a Cavalier! :-(

Bother - for some reason the '9' of "9 months is usually considered to be the earliest age for castration ..." got left out. Sorry!

Thanks for all that advice,  I will probably leave the castration now until he is a bit older.  I would never have known any of this without you, so much gratitude to you all!

With regards to Daisy weeing in the bed... any more advice on that?  I'm afraid if it continues, she'll learn that it is ok to wee in her bed?  When she is awake, she asks to go out all the time  by tapping the back door, so I know that she understands that she should go outside....

I would make sure she is walked last thing at night and encouraged to have a wee. If she still continues to do this and your are sure she does it in her sleep then I would get her back to the vets and get her examined again. Does she drink excessively at all just out of interest ?

Lucy
xx

She does lap for a while, but only intermitantly.  She doesn't really drink after 9 pm and usually needs a big drink in the morning.  Funnily enough, the vet said that her urine was quite diluted (as she promptly pee'd all over the room!).  She said to keep an eye on it, but it is really difficult with a little girl who wee's on the grass?

so glad you are reconsidering the castration I had two beautiful cav boys when I first moved into my own home and was recomended early castration as they would become aggresive towards each other I believed everything the veterinary nurse told me so booked them in for early castration after that they never grew I had two permanent puppies had I listened to the breeders and my Mum cavs get on real well together there was no need for such drastic action.  As for the weeing problem my friends Beagle did that and to be honest just grew out of it she is on holiday now so she can't tell you for herself but the bitch did pee when asleep while she was young sorry I can't be sure of the age she grew out of it.

I'm not really sure what I'll do when it comes to Daisy coming into season?  We'll have to think about that one!  I'm glad your friends dog grew out of it.  I'm sure it is just a phase, as nothing else seems to be wrong with her.  she is bright and lively and just adorable!

I hoped that some of you had gone through the same thing, it makes me feel like I am not doing anything wrong with her!  It is such a worry having babies!

Any suggestions for dealing with Daisy during seasons with her amorous brother about, would be much appreciated!

Unless you can be 100% certain that everyone in the household can be trusted to never leave a door open and that you can all sleep at nights through the sound of howling I would book one or other into the kennels.

Phew, thank goodness you have reconsidered the castration. I'm sick of these wispy, mamby, text book vets advising the to early castration to "correct" perfectly normal puppy/dog behaivour, it's barbarac! and that's being polite polite.
Someone said something to me once which I fall back on at times of doggie ahhhhhh moments

If you own a dog, then your gonna get incidents...arn't you?

How true is that and how wise.

I think barbaric is a bit strong :)  The vet is entitled to his opinion as the best course of action as anyone is on this subject.  Maybe faced with the choice of a novice owner buying opposite sexes from the same litter the choice of early castration, even with coat changes and growth differences, as opposed to an unplanned, possible unhealthy litter, he considers it the best option.

Maybe so Isabel, but don't they seem so full on with the de-sexing of everything that moves these days? Walk into any vets with a pup and it's the number 2 or 3 question they'll ask. Woe betide you say no too.

My vets have never asked me when I'm having a puppy neutered, I don't know if that's because they know me or if they just never pressure anyone into having their dogs 'done'. I agree with Isabel that in this case, where the new owner has a dog and bitch from the same litter the vet probably thought the best option to avoid unwanted pregnancy was to have the dog done before the bitch was likely to come in season, which in a small breed could be quite early. It all seems fairly sensible to me  :D

No vet has ever suggested to me when or even if to neuter.  I would like to think if they did I would consider the pros and cons as to what they are suggesting. What happens if you say no?  Do they strike you off their list? :p

I do think that vets push much more for early neutering/spaying these days, even encouraging people at puppy parties to get it done.  I've also heard of a dog trainer recently pushing very hard to have a 6 month old dog neutered.  I personally don't feel vets always provide the whole picture, ie possible drawbacks to very early neutering/spaying.  Whatever their motives, I think they should always give ALL the facts so the client can make a balanced judgement.

As they will see far more neutered animals that any of us are ever likely to I expect they will consider it's effects when making any recommendations. 

As the owner has to live with the animal affected by possible side effects Isabel and the vet doesn't, I would want to make my own decision!

Indeed :)  but I would want the benefit of their professional knowledge and experience to guide me to the decision that I thought right for my particular circumstances.

I have never been asked when I am going to neuter/spay either of my dogs. I have just been made aware that they will do the procedure from 6 months!  My boy is now 16 months and I hasten to say fully intact ;-)  and my bitch is now 5 months and we have no intention of getting her done either!!

as for the peeing at night   are you positive she is asleep? not just woken up and decided to pee?  I am assuming she is in a crate,  is the crate maybe too big? have you tried to make it smaller so she doesn't have room to go toilet and to sleep?
Also if she is asleep are you sure she doesn't have a urine infection? If you are unsure then I would make a quick appt at the vets just to be sure!

as for the in season part I would keep them seperate as much as possible at the moment, this is what I have been doing with my 2 so it isn't such a blow when they do have to be seperate ;-)
I am lucky in the sense that I have 2 entrances to my back garden so my bitch uses 1 entrance and my boy uses the other. They both are crate trained too and I also have dog gates at all the door ways aswell as doors. My children are very good in the sense that we have had trial runs of a week at a time of not having the dogs in the same place at the same time and nobody once slipped up!! ( I am probably a bit paranoid really but I would rather be this way than have an accident!)  as this will be our first experience of having a dog and bitch together I'm not sure how my boy will react but we will see! probably loads of howling :-D

I agree Isabel - the vet doesn't have to live with the thick woolly coat and any possible behavioural problems! I still remember when Henry had a tiny fleshy lump off when he was a year old and the vet offered to castrate him at the same time. As he'd just started winning Best of Breeds at lots of the shows, my reply was rather forcefully negative. They've never asked me again! :-D I have since had my other dog neutered, but that was for behavioural reasons. :-)

So you will know as well as anyone that there are behavioural issues both side of the coin :)  I've never felt that a woolly coat was enough in itself to swing it either way, my bitches coat changed and I was no longer able to handstrip, so I just clip her.  It's neither here nor there to either of us.  I suppose I might have liked to resurrect her show career in the veteran ring but compared to the benefits it has brought us it's a small thing.  However, obviously when a dog is doing well in the show ring it is worth hanging on to its fertility which I'm sure your vet understood when you told him that feature of your particular individual :)  I think it was a sensible suggestion for consideration when an anaesthetic is in the offing.

Very true...we were told at the second jab that we could make an advanced booking to have our boy neutered It seems to be more of a case of "when" rather than "if" with most vets.

Jennyrose, I'm not very up to date on this topic as it has been many years since I've owned a bitch :).  Would it be possible for someone you trust to look after Douggie while Daisy is in season - might be the simplest option?

I agree - don't castrate too early -but DO keep your dogs apart @ season time :) I have no experience of doing this - but I've seen people on here say they keep theirs apart for 28 days, I think. And if your girl wees in her sleep and has very dilute urine, I would want the vet to look into it further. JMO. :)

please be aware though that your dogs will  be very determined to get together when Daisy is in season so you will need to be 100% sure that this cannot happen. I'm with the others in that I would not have a dog castrated through choice as it does drastically change their coats and their tendency to put on weight but it can be a real trial living with a dog driven crazy by his hormones - he may start to scent mark in the house - will howl or whine for most of the day - may well refuse any food and will try ANY means to get to the bitch - if you can arrange for him to be sent away during her season that may well be the best solution however, - if you feel that this is not an option and that you would not be able to cope with him in the house whilst Daisy is in season, then go ahead and get him done - better this than an accidental litter

At the moment I have a bitch in full season and three entire males - the bitch is spending all her day in a kennel and run - the boys are reduced to skinny howling wrecks and peeing up everything that doesnt move - luckily they are not fighters but have formed a kind of 'lonely hearts club' where they all sit together outside the kennel makig moon eyes at the bitch - like desperate batchelors in a singles bar ;). The noise etc is a real nuisence but luckily I'm the only one it annoys as I have no close neighbours - it would be even more difficult to live through if you had to think of folk next door !

Yvonne

Hi Jennyrose (and Dougie&Daisy!)
Welcome to Champdogs!
Its a hive of good infomation (as you've found out! dont be disheartened if your origional question hasnt been addressed yet,some debates do tend flare up when you dont expect them!..but always sound advice shines through ;) do take it all on board, we're just all passionate about all aspects of doggie health :))

regards the little piddler ;) :-
You've mentioned Her weeing infront of your Vet, so Im presuming you've broached your concern with the vet? were you given any other info from her?
  You see there can be many different reasons, and over a computer screen it'd be hard for us to say what it is thats causing this with Daisy...
-Most commonly its due to infection (in her Urinary tract,and general area) did your vet consider this?
-another common factor can be stress
- and another (but this wont be relevant to Daisy) is in Bitches who have been de-sexed where the muscle crossing over the bladder has become weakened due to the surgical procedure. (so if you were to op on Daisy I'd advise you find the cause prior to this)
-tie ing in with the above it may be (how good is her breeding do you much about the Dam/Sire?) that she has naturally weak muscles to the bladder?
-Epilepsy often has bed wetting or leaking as a sign/symptom
There's many many many more...so you see its hard to say and you'd be here forever and a day if I listed more ;)
I'd say get back together with your vet and discuss it further :)
Ive heard that putting an item of your clothing into her bed may help (but thats only going to help if the wetting is due to a behavioural cause)
And make sure you eliminate the urine odour from her bedding (do a search on here for removing urine odour for the proper method..just 'washing' isnt enough)

Failing that..I know of a member here who is in My breed (Sibes) who had this problem with one of hers I can Pm you her details if you like Im sure she wouldnt mind sharing her experience.

Hope this Helps :D
Good luck with getting to the root of it x

Something I have experienced too with a fully trained although young bitch.  If she got into a bedroom she just had to pee or poo on the carpet.  I really don't know why but my other half, with lots more experience, said it is a bitch thing. I also had an incident when a rescue of ours, from a very loving but ill equipped home, decided to poo on the bed and he was over two years old at the time.  OH said he had got used to pooing on a soft surface - puppy pads or the previous homes carpets possibly.  Anyhow both situations where easily managed and didn't happen again.

My 10 month old bitch is just about to hit sexual maturity and she had peed on the floor a couple of times just lately after being house trained for some time.  As mentioned by others this is something that quite often happens.

Don't loose heart you just have to learn to manage the situation until it all gets back to normal, probably 4 weeks or so after her season.

I sent my male to my Mum's when my Bitch was in season,everything was fine for a week and then he went on hunger strike and had to come home as Mum wasn't happy to keep him when he wasn't eating.  I had bought a crate during the week he was away and took it in turns as to who stayed in the crate, I took the bitch or dog with me if I left the room,which ever was loose as I'd heard of matings taking place through the bars of the cage.

When I went out in the car the dog came with me so there was no fear of a barrier coming down and them getting to each other.  The dog is now back to normal and regaining the weight he lost.

It wasn't easy but I got there in the end and now know how to cope in the future.

Rhona

Hooray!  there is an answer.

She isn't causing too many problems, just lots of washing!  I will of course perservere with her as she is soooo cute!

Thanks for your input.  Its good to hear others have experienced it!

Wow, thanks HuskyGal. I have found all the information very useful so far.  A lot of the time I just watch and learn.  To answer your questions:

1) The vet said to keep an eye on it.  So I'll probably end up taking her back.  She said she'd want a urine sample, but I have no idea how I'm going to get that!
2)As you say, she isn't neutered, so I don't think it is a muscular problem.
3)I would love it if you can put me in touch with someone who has dealt with this.  It might give me some insight.  I think that Douggie is now marking as a result because he went for a tiny wee in there the other day..  Maybe I just have "special" dogs, bless 'em.4) I'll try looking up something to erradicate the odour.  Silly me, just though a good hot wash would do it!

Thansk again for your infor, much appreciated!

Urine sample can be collected with a small tray when she goes out to wee not easy as you have to slide it under her without scaring her yes we have all made ourselves look like fools for are dogs bless

Oh Jenny, what a delighful task ;) :D

If Daisy's quite confident you should be ok with a shallow dish (plastic best as it doesnt make much noise) but some dogs will stop mid flow (well..Imean!! really.."do you mind!!") at something being thrust under them,or you coming too close (long handled things like ladels may help)
   when I had to do this with my Bitch I put sheets of Cling film down in her favourite 'wee' spots in the Paddock, and then quickly grabbed it and (gingerly!!) held the sheet up hammock style then poured into a sample jar.

Bear in mind you (ideally) need to get the sample to your vets within about 2 hours (but you've got up to 12 hours) you'll need to keep it refrigerated though if kept after an hour...

You could try the (not very glamorous) stimulation method, where you rub her gently with a warm facecloth 'down there' and have jar at the ready (your a braver woman than I if you crack this one :D)

All else fails fear not your vet can collect the sample for you using a cystocentesis or Urinary cathetar...

Hope this helps
continued good luck ;)

you can get bottles of stuff called Simple Solution at the pet shop (PAH)to get rid of any odours. It can be used on any material I think including carpets. You can use it like pre wash. i used it on my rugs etc then threw them in the washing machine. I also wash down my floors with it every so often. When my puppy peed on the bed I also wiped the mattress down with it and washed the duvet with it too. It certainly seemed to work really well for us, she took a while to train but it was much easier once we got rid of the smells and although not cheap it wasn't that expensive either.

Marion

Hi I've two Border terriers - brother & sister and when Millie came on heat I brought cotton childrens knickers from Asda, cut a hole for her tail and she wore these proudly! Obviously we kept them apart with a baby gate but the knickers were an added precaution.  Luckily although the boy knew something was going on he was too young to understand what to do!    

With regards to the weeing Millie still does this occasionally and she's now 4 - with her it seems as if its a way of marking her bed so the boy doesn't use it.  

Sue

>2)As you say, she isn't neutered, so I don't think it is a muscular problem.

Some puppies can suffer from an incompetent Sphincter muscle, giving the symptoms that you describe, weeing whilst asleep.This is quite rare and can resolves itself once the bitch has had her 1st season(something to do with hormones ) I know of a puppy who suffered with this and she was given propalin to help, which did work. She has since been weened off of the propalin and is now waiting for her 1st season ( puppy is 6 1/2 months old)

Excellent idea with the clingfilm HuskyGal.... never thought of this one!
Again, it is just reassuring that others have experienced this with their dogs.  I could understand Daisy marking her bed, as she is quite protective of it.   It is also good to here there is a cheap option for de-odourising the bed.  I'll pic some up this weekend.

I'll also use the cotton knicker idea for her season.  Although it wont stop them completely, it is an extra barrier!  Im sure she'll love wearing them (:rolleyes:), they'll go perfectly with her pink and diamonte collar!  she's such a princess!  I'm sure it'll give them some stimulating thought aswell... how to get them off!  i can picture it now!

Thanks again for all the advice.  If anyone has anything else to add, feel free!  the more the merrier!