Staying with my friend this weekend, they are having issues with a "recall" with their 6 month old Huntaway x WSD. She has 10 acres of grounds, but has to exercise the pup on a lead both at home and when out walking as once loose, she can't easily get her back. Because of this, she can't leave doors open at home either. What a shame and a waste of their beautiful grounds!

She was asking what I suggested, and have to say as I couldn't normally lose my dogs if I tried, I was a bit stuck. My suggestion, after a bit of thought, was to really work and work on a foolproof 'drop' and down stay, so it became so ingrained that the dog did it without thinking.

If they ever do let her loose at home, they leave a training line on her, in the hope that they can at least grab that. Of course, this is a dog that will require lots of exercise, so the faster they can sort the issue the better. With her breeding, she is of course bright as a bucket of lightbulbs, and doesn't fall for any tricks like game playing, trying to make interesting noises inside the house, etc. She is not at all food orientated. She has a fabulous temperament, if a little mad, and is interestingly very submissive, which I didn't really expect.

Grounds are not secure as they're so large, plus there are sheep next door (which she's already been to visit once!), so can't follow my thought which I would do at home, which would be to shut the door and leave her out there.

Was my suggestion of down stays a sensible one? Has anyone got any better ideas?

M.
(Restrained myself from saying 'I told you so' as recommended strongly they didn't go to see this litter of puppies as the breeding sounds far 'too much' for the average pet. She said it for me, though. :D )

They need to make oming back to them the best thing in the world - toys, games, fantastic food and so on.  I'd keep her on a long line for now, definitely - also they must remember that at 6 months she's just comnig into those lovely teenage months and selective deafness is typical!  Varying the reward helps as well - not just between toy/game/treat but varying each as well - so a tug game one time, chicken the next, then a throw around with a ball, then cooked liver, you get the idea.  Even the best reward in the world can get samey if it's all she gets!

The one most important thing they must never do is punish her on a recall - even if she's taken half an hour to come back, if they punish her for ignoring them when she finally does return then she's less likely to come back next time.

Yes, they know those bits - but as soon as something has worked ONCE, she knows for the next time. :rolleyes: Too clever by half!

Have also pointed out that they need to train in the idea that coming back and/or going on a lead doesn't always mean the end of the fun - put her back on her lead (or hold the line), train/walk/play for a bit, then let her go again.

Food really doesn't work at all with her. When my friend tries a game now, she'll run around NEAR, but never quite near enough.

Did try having a chat with the pup and telling her she is a fool to herself and life would be so much more fun if she could run on the beach with the others, but she doesn't seem to have listened. :D

M.

Haven't got any instant suggestions but can confirm that, with a dog who isn't food orientated and has a high hunting drive, that "conventional" solutions rarely work. I've whistle-trained my dog but for all that, there are still times when, out in the fields behind us, the lure of the weasels and rabbits are far greater than any rewards I can come up with. I have no problems out on walks away from home where his recall is good but once he has plunged firmly into his own hedgerows he can be a little sod.

Hi

While she is working on the dogs recall, why dont they fence off a paddock area so the dog has a space to run around in and exercise. 

Yes, they could do that I suppose - and they would if it continues - but to be honest the issue in itself is more around the sneaking sideways out of doors, desperate not to let her escape (or visitors not being careful enough not to let her out), not being able to have doors open in the nice weather, not being able to have her knocking about with them and their other dog for the many hours they spend working in the garden, not being able to exercise her off lead away from home ...

All is fairly manageable in the short term, but in the long term they would like to 'fix' rather than 'manage'.

As ever, there were no questions from the breeder around whether they appreciated the type of dog they were buying. I wonder what kind of homes the litter-mates went to? At least here there are two fit people with plenty of time to spend with the dog.

M.

For a fast recall I used a fluffy toy chicken that sounds like a chicken when squeezed. Maybe that would work if they can find one. I found mine in a pet shop but I have also seen similar things in garden shops. Lots of praise when the dog returns to you and maybe use the food over the course of the day as the reward not extra treats.

Well in my view they ought to fence in a secion of their ground near the back door for her.  Say 25 feet square or whatever.

OK then, accepting an enclosed run for 'at home', how do they fix the rest of it? I can't honestly think that this is not trainable and that they need to accept that when walking either in public places or in their own woods they will need to keep this dog on the lead for the rest of her days. Obviously it's not sensible to just assume the problem will go away ... so how would people train?

M.

tie a fillet steak to my backside and run off calling her name :D

might work :D

>tie a fillet steak to my backside and run off calling her name

Errm, OK Carla, but is your backside always going to be available in Sussex? :D

M.

No idea about the recall training but it may be worth having a word with the farmer who's sheep are in the next field to let them know they are trying to sort her out and that she will not cause an problems to the sheep (assuming she wont) and then at least that way no matter what happens they wont have an irrate farmer on their hands (who i believe are still within their rights to shoot any dogs that are "worrying" their livestock)

Good luck with it - I wish I had 10 acres to let my two idiots run free

I have suggested that no matter how puppyish and friendly she may be at the moment, there is no guarantee that she won't cause problems to the sheep as this is a situation that can very easily 'turn'.

M.

I would definitely go with Brainless's suggestion. A contained area right outside the back door would eliminate the potential for escape and also provide an opportunity for practising recall. :)

They definately need to fence off an area outside the back door, this would make life so much easier and safer for them :)

If she isn't interested in treats maybe she's getting to much food or too many treats that she doesn't have to 'work' for ;)  (not suggesting they starve her tho ;) )

With my willful Bedlie (mind of her own and far too intelligent ;) ) I would let her wander into the garden and then call her excitedly and give her some of her food ration or the occasional valued treat.  This was the only way she got fed.  If she refused to come then that bit of food would be put back in the box ;) she was left slightly hungry in the first few days as she didn't really want to come back, but this meant that food became more important to her and then the treats (still food ration) worked and her recall improved brilliantly ;)  Wish I'd learned about this when I was first trying to train my AfghanX to recall, his problem was that we didn't know till later that he was an AfffieX and we were feeding him far too much :rolleyes:  Once we got him to the right weight he was much easier to train ;)

I still practise the recall with my dogs every mealtime :)  they have to wait, at the other end of the house, until I call them for their dinner :) :)  they love this game and run like mad for their dinner :) :) but it pays off when we're outside too :)

She's very lean, and being a baby still I certainly wouldn't want to feed her any less. I'd say she's being fed at a low level for her age and activity.

Unfortunately, with their set up (how garden etc. is laid out) a fenced area to back door (i.e. to avoid escape if inadvertently left open) is really not possible, but have suggested a secure run elsewhere.

M.

Ok
To be honest it sounds to me as though the dog does not recognise her owners as the alpha.
I have had a couple of pups returned to me with this very same problem (plus others) one in particular the owners thought he was deaf as he did not respond at all to his name. I really didn't believe them and the first time i took him for a walk let him off the lead with my lot (he had never been loose before) and sure enough it was as though i didn't exisit and he was entirely deaf to his name!  Within 3 days of being with me and learning manners etc he was a completely different dog, i would even go so far as to say he was depressed when he arrived, in three days he was a nornal lively happy pup, who followed me every where.  The second time i let him off the lead 3 days later he was joyous, and kept racing away and then racing straight back to me as fast as he could a massive smile on his face.  He even lost sight of me at one point and the panic in the dog... he was exstatic to hear me call him and came bounding over. 
Some people kill their dogs with kindness but really just do not understand how dogs work and that dogs need someone to follow - a leader - your friend needs to work on becomming the pack leader and her dog will not want to run off.
Sharon

It's just a training issue but it needs sorting out very soon.

Does the dog actually bog off to go hunting, or is he/she just messing around? Until you know which it is, it will be hard to solve. Most recall issues can be solved with the correct methods as mentioned by Nikita for example :)

These do work - but only if used correctly. If the dog is hunting, that's a different issue and the dog needs to learn self control plus the owners need to manage this as if the dog keeps practising hunting, it will only get better and enjoy it more :D If theowners also don't understand how to use body language etc, this  might mess up the training programme. It sounds to be honest as if they need sensible on the spot help.

Whereabouts are they?

Lindsay
x

I think you will find that this is one of the reasons Huntaways do not figure largely in any type of competive discipline........................

They are a challenge and, depending on how H she is v how WSD this could determine your approach.

One of the unfortunate drawbacks of having a lot of private land is that it of course easy to let a dog "self exercise" and thus go self employed, once established, the owner generally does not have much that is more rewarding to the dog..................

She may not be particularly food orientated although the desire for food can of course be increased by deprivation and only feeding during training ie divide all the food up into 20 - 30 portions and the dog only gets fed on instant recalls.  A few days of no recalls and no food generally makes the dog more attentive.

However with this mix I would suggest that getting the dog ball orientated would be a good idea as she may have a high prey drive which can be redirected onto the ball, once established this is a good control mechanism.

There are very good 1:1 trainers who would be familiar with this type of dog and a few sessions with one to show your friend the methods to employ would be a good investment.  A shame to keep a dog like this on the lead all the time as both the owner and the dog will eventually become frustrated and develop other even less attractive behaviours................

There are dogs/breeds/individuals who do not have the level of independence of others and so many owners/handlers are not equipped to deal with problem at hand.  Generally speaking methods that work with less independent dogs ie running away from them etc are a total waste of time with dogs of this type.

A handler dependant dog is much easier to train than one that is NOT handler dependant! ;)

>as both the owner and the dog will eventually become frustrated and develop other even less attractive behaviours................

To be honest, the owner already has lots of less attractive behaviours, it may be too late for her, but we'll work on the dog. :D :D :D

The dogs are definitely not turned out to exercise themselves, in as much as they walk them on the grounds. She has been trying to work her up to a ball, but the dog will play happily with a ball whilst out and about - as soon as she knows the owner is trying to get hold of her (and oh, she knows!), it's a completely different matter.

She's a bit of a conundrum, in that I would say from my amateur observations that she's not CURRENTLY particularly independent, but she's obviously still young and this will increase. When they're trying to get her into the house, she's always there, just won't actually come in and you can't get near enough to get hold of her.

M.

>she's always there, just won't actually come in and you can't get near enough to get hold of her.

Oh do I remember that trick! Nips decided, at around 6 months old, that he would decide when he would go back on a lead and while he'd be trotting along happily at your side, he wasn't about to be caught when an uncatchable mood came on.

I don't think I have ever worked so hard on any one single training issue as I did on this but since he was only a pup, it was a deal easier to get the problem cracked. With an older dog things are going to be a deal more difficult (as you've observed!) and in your friend's case I think I'd be investing in one to one training sessions.

I wouldn't want to stop the dogs rations, but I would cut some liver up in very little pieces & cook it in the oven until it is crispy. I would also use chicken, not many dogs can refuse this, I am sure if the dog was hungry, I would persevere until it worked. I would try training on a long line. I haven't ever had this problem with my dogs not returning to me, but the other week on 'It's me or the dog', there was a monster of a dalmation featured. She really was terrible, there were no rules laid down for her at all. I must admit she was really food orientated. I was very impressed with the training method for recall though. The trainer used a whistle, & every time she blew the whistle the dog got a food reward. You can practice this in the house first & then progress to out of doors on a long line. The dalmation's owner had never dared to let he off the lead & the transformation was amazing. She returned to her owner at 100 miles per hour every time she heard the whistle.

I might sound a bit thick, but can you spell out the breed of the dog, as I have never heard of one.

I think my plan B would be to get another dog that I knew I could train to recall, so that this one could teach the other!

>can you spell out the breed of the dog, as I have never heard of one

Do you mean Huntaway? As it's spelt there really. Quite a 'hard' working type dog, Google it and you'll see some.

>get another dog that I knew I could train to recall

They have another, extremely obedient dog, so that hasn't worked. :D

Just clicked into this late, will copy the ideas across to her tomorrow.

M.

Oops, or do you mean WSD? Working sheepdog, used here to mean a farm-type Collie, rather than a registered Border Collie for show.

M.

Many WSD have rather illustrious pedigrees and are about as far away from a "farm type collie" (whatever that is) as is possible, and are registered under the Activity register.  Border Collies were previously registered under the ISDS until the unfortunate (some would say) day they became KC recognised..............

My Rjj is registered with the KC as a BC but his ISDS registration states Working Sheepdog(or Border Collie) The ISDS calls all dogs registered with them WSD If you look at their website all the dogs are called WSDs !!!

My friend has got a huntaway cross wsd. She a very high prey drive dog, but also very obedient. He has worked very hard to get the dog ball motivated, which has worked wonders, although sometimes the temptation to chase deer or rabbits does get too much, however she never disappears completely.

Wonder if they're from the same place? - or is it a more common cross than it sounds. My friend's is from East Sussex area.

All advice being passed on and hopefully some of it will sink in while this dog is still as nice as it currently is.

M.

The whole coming close but not quite close enough routine is typical of dogs who have negative consquences for coming back. Whether this is telling the dog off for not coming quicker, or putting the lead back on and ending the exercise.

I would take this dog out on a long line, have a toy as a reward and call her constantly. You could use the long line to reel her in, reward her and let her go again. A reward could be a game of tuggy or throwing a toy if she's not into food.

The owner needs to break down the association that coming back is bad before they start on getting her to come back when she doesn't want to.

The method that Tohme has suggeted (splitting the food up) is not one that will result in a starving dog. Particularly if the recalls are easy to start with and gradually getting harder.

I used a similar method on one of mine, and for 2 days he didn't get his full meal allowance, and since then his recall has pretty much been 100%. We didn't have a history of him avoiding coming back though, which is why I'd tackle that first.

>The whole coming close but not quite close enough routine is typical of dogs who have negative consquences for coming back.

I can quite see that this can be the case. But I'm afraid that I've seen first hand this routine played out by dogs who have never, ever, had a negative experience regarding coming back. Instead, the behaviour commenced at precisely the time "Kevinhood" set in and in those dogs that have remained unreliable, it's because it wasn't sorted out when it first presented. After the joyous habit of skittering around like an eejit when needing to be caught has got ingrained it is far harder to correct. Not because the dog has any dread of returning but simply because it's far more fun not to!

End of fun = negative consequence.

I inherited a dog that had been allowed to "self exercise" and in some contexts he is still a right royal pain, though greatly improved in others.  It's very frustrating when the running away technique doesn't work because the dog doesn't give a monkeys and even if you disappear, is confident of hunting you down when he's had enough pleasure!  I also learned through experience that if you use food rewards from puppy days that's all the motivation you'll ever need but older dogs that need re-training are more tricky to motivate.  I've had to learn (dur) to use going back to hunting as a motivator (that really surprised him!)  Toys were no use, not as interesting as hunting to him - owners of ball oriented dogs (and I've had one) are lucky.

However, he recently had to be put on half rations due to a digestive problem.  His recall improved no end!

He always has had a portion of his food used that way, and it was only when starvation kicked in that the balance swung between the desire to hunt and hunger, unfortunately.

The other drawback for me is having a second much smaller dog, who doesn't leave my side in case I recall and get food out to reward the other one.  (Look, I'm here ... I'm here and I'm much better behaved then he is ... look, I can walk to heel ... look, I can walk to heel on my hind legs ... reward me, reward me :-D  Her food ration is so small it won't last compared to his.  One day I'll look down and she'll be doing a handstand in desperation for reward.

>End of fun = negative consequence.

Absolutely!  But in the context of the topic I was treating negative consequences in the sense of a dog being told off or punished at some time when it returned. Only ALL dogs must, in theory, suffer potentially negative consequences when having to go back on lead but it doesn't stop most of them being quite happy to do so!

The description of your poor girl behaving beautifully just cracked me up though. I can just picture her turning ever more desperate tricks to be rewarded for being good!

Depending on the dog, the end of fun is negative enough to make them actively avoid coming back.

I know the 'self exercising' problem well! When I got my boy he's been a latch key dog, so he wasn't used to humans even being there let alone going back to them! He was far more keen to go off investigating.

Luckily, if your dog is motivated by hunting and chasing at all, you can transfer that onto toys. I took my previously self employed lad out for a training walk the other day, and I couldn't get any recall training done because he found out I had a tennis ball and wouldn't go far enough away :rolleyes:

I've got a puppy in my classes at the moment who is a nightmare at the moment. She was told off for not coming back so started to avoid her owners, and then because she got very good at that (she's a bright collie!) they couldn't get her back to do practice recalls, if it takes half an hour to catch a dog the last thing you want to do is then let her off again, so the problem is very ingrained. The first step with her, as I think it is with the dog being discussed, is to show her that coming back isn't a bad thing. Then we can work on instant recall.

The owner is fab so we'll get there :)

>you can transfer that onto toys.<

Can you tell me how?  And I know the theory about one toy which you keep as special etc.

I think I have a dog that is strongly motivated to hunt but not generally chase oriented.  Also, for a Lab he shows amazingly little inclination to hold things and has to have big encouragement to even pick them up.  We found a tennis ball whilst out the other day so I got very excited and kicked it along hoping he'd try and steal it but he just looked at me in a pained way.

One problem I think he's got is that he previously lived with a dog that kept all toys for herself and would not let the others have them.  Plus an owner who was very hot on "the toys are MINE" routine.

I thought searching games or tracking would be his thing but he often loses the scent or fails to complete a simple track with both a high-value toy and food at the end. :-(