As the title says really :) Ive been told by a number of poeple that Lakelands shouldnt be fed on a diet high in protein and have been recomended to move norman off Nutro onto one with a lower level. We still want to feed him a good food though with no colouring, additives ect.... Can anyone suggest one to try??

sarah xxxx

I know that Burns is fairly low in protein!

Ah, a subject close to my heart at the moment! ;) This is a very complicated subject. First of all, have you been told why Lakelands should be fed low levels of protein? What does a high level do to them? Is it a health risk or behavioural? Not all proteins are the same - high levels from some sources can be dangerous whereas high levels from other sources can be very beneficial. Basically, don't tinker with diet unless you know for certain why you're doing it, and what you hope to achieve. You could do more harm than good.

Hi Sarah,

James Well Beloved is also low in protein (like Burns).   I'm with Jeangenie - why would people suggest Lakelands should be fed a food low in protein?  Is their a specific problem that you want to correct?

A dogs natural diet is high in protein, they are primarily carnivores after all, if a commercial food is the only source of nutrition for a dog my first choice would definitely not be a low protein brand. 

Hello both :)

Thanks for your advice, yes i dont really know why they suggest lakies should be fed low protein, i think it may be because of behavioural but im really not sure I will try and find out, thanks anyway :)

sarah xxx

Would that be behaving like a terrier? ;)

don't know if this is right, but just read "This breed (lakeland terrier)does not need a high protein content diet" on PetPlanet.......?

There is a continued belief in the unfounded statement that high protein levels cause behaviour problems.  They do not, in isolation.

Trying to find a "low protein" food is akin to the quest for the holy grail.  Hopefully when you make comparisons you are removing the moisture content and then you have discovered WHAT protein is in the food, what percentage of it is digestible and what is incomplete and complete.

Just because a food has a specific %age of food does not indicate the bioavailability of it or the quality.

Good luck.

Well, Petplanet any web site other than a breed-specific one should be ignored.  IMO, the only sites anyone with specific questions about a breed should pay attention to are those run by a recognized breed club.

I checked Petplanet for my breed, Cairns.  Their comment under diet was correct "feeding of this little dog is relatively easy,however care must be taken that they do not become overweight" - they do gain weight easily.

However, some of the rest was complete rubbish.  "Personal Protection - medium."  That should be a low to none - and even if was high, exactly how useful would a dog of Cairn size be for personal protection???   "Tendency to Bark - Low"   :rolleyes:, yeah, right ... in my dreams.   Under grooming they say that the coat should be hand stripped, which is true.   But then they mention the coat moults twice a year - which is completely untrue.  They do not moult or shed at all, which is why the coat should be handstripped.  Should they be stripped twice a year, yes.  Do they moult, no.

Which is why reading about my own breed on anything other than Cairn club web sites drives me nuts!  

>>2 hours per day.These dogs MUST have plenty of exercise to keep them well-muscled and to keep their brains occupied. Failure to do this can result in the Border becoming extremely badly behaved and aggressive. They should ideally be kept in the country in order that they have the freedom they so desperately need.<<

chuckle, that is what it says in regard to exercise for a BC:rolleyes: In fact physical exercise doesn't give them much mental stimulation, that can be done separately:rolleyes:  As for them becoming badly behaved and aggressive....... badly behaved from lack of exercise certainly, but aggressive? Usually caused by poor socialisation and exaggerated by lack of exercise which causes them to become frustrated........ PMSL don't disagree about the country bit, they are not really a city dog :-( I still can't get over 2 hours a day? Chuckle, mine are obviously spoiled then!

Wasnt sure where else to post this on,and i thought a "low protein" thread would be the best bet :)

Information on Science Diet k/d from Wendy Volhard, author of Holistic Guide for a Healthy Dog

    The low-protein myth is like an old-wive's tale, something based on ignorance that just won't die. Yes, inferior-quality protein can harm a dog's kidneys, but the solution isn't to continue with inferior-quality  ingredients and feed less of them. The solution is to improve the quality of  ingredients and in that way provide what the dog needs for good health."

    Studies disproving the prevalent low-protein prescription have been widely published in veterinary journals and textbooks. But it is moving into the mainstream very slowly.

    Most vets who did not graduate from college in the last few years (and some  of those as well) are still unaware of or dismiss the newer studies that  show low-protein diets neither slow the progression of kidney disease nor  prolong life

    Too many dogs are forced to eat Prescription Diet k/d® or similar low-protein prescription foods. These can actually cause harm. When protein levels are very low, the body will cannibalize itself to  get the protein it needs. This creates more waste products than if you feed the proper amount of high-quality protein in the first place. Also, k/d is  not very palatable, and many dogs with kidney disease will eat only enough of it to survive, or stop eating entirely if that is all they are offered.

New studies state that the low protein diets prescribed by "old" style Vets or Vets brainwashed by Hills Science plan are not helping the dogs at all and actually causing other problems.     

Most dogs I've seen put on the k/d diet are also put on antibiotics.  Most times it's the antibiotics that have cleared up the infection.

Then there is the common problem of poop eating,which can be as easy to cure by simply putting the dog on a high protein diet,more in line in what their bodies NEED.Dogs can smell the protein in poop,particular cat poop and then eat it in a quest for what is missing in the diet.

I really must get my dog to read this, because he's obviously getting it all wrong! ;) Since he's been on the high-carb, low-protein diet he's been happier and bouncier than since he was a puppy, and his poos are much smaller and firmer than when he was having more meat.

Wendy Volhard's a vet, is she? Or just A.N. Other with a personal axe to grind?

Edit: I've just had a look at her site. No mention of professional qualifications, and it seems she's never heard of purines. :rolleyes: Not very impressive for a 'nutritionist'.

You've never mentioned here how >low protein and high carb your dogs diet is<

Care to enlighten us? :)

I knew in the back of my mind WV would get poo poo'd,there's something negative to dig up on everyone,no matter how nonsensical or trivial,years and years of accumulated knowledge,research and experience mean nothing,especially if their feeding regime/health advice is the complete opposite of what one thought was a healthy one for their dog ;) And for what? Pride? To stir up controversy,polemicity,what??

I believe in studies,reports that back up what i've already learnt,no matter who the author is. A large helping of common sense is needed,and the above article makes perfect sense. As i've said before, a dogs natural diet is comprised of 30-40% protein,feed a 1/4 or 1/2 less than this and i think it's obvious that troubles will arise in one area or another.Dogs are very resiliant creatures and takes a while for most dogs who appear to do fine,to really not be.

JG have you been to forums such as k9 kitchen or other holistic/natural slanted boards,boards that arent run by commercial food evangelists i mean? I'm sure they could give you alot of great advice,especially from owners who have been where you are now,and most importantly they'de be able to give you alternatives,rather than the one size fits all,stock standard high carb,low protein alternative. I've seen dally owners there who's dogs have the same problems your piglet does,sucessfully feeding raw diets.I'm not saying you should go 100% raw or feed a high protein diet,just hoping you'll step outside the box,open your mind and see there are other ways,other than your own, to do things :)

>You've never mentioned here how >low protein and high carb your dogs diet is<
>Care to enlighten us?

Actually, I have in other posts which you obviously missed. ;)

He is (on the advice of dal owners in the USA, Australia and UK whose dogs have had this problem and lived to tell the tale) having 60% rice or potato, 20% pureed low-purine fruit and veg (some are high purine, so care must be taken in the choice) and 30% low-purine protein-provider; eggs, cheese, white fish etc. This is of course all wet food, and the protein-providing sources aren't 100% protein ;). This advice is based on many years of studying real dogs in a real environment.

I wonder if you've ever had your dogs' urine tested to discover if the diet you choose for them makes their urine acidic, alkaline or neutral? Each is likely to be different, of course, dogs being individuals and not clones. Of course the different pH levels give rise to different types of stone, requiring different treatment. Or perhaps you're sailing along in blissful ignorance?

>just hoping you'll step outside the box,open your mind and see there are other ways,other than your own, to do things

That was what caused the trouble in the first place! :rolleyes: I'm sure you'll be interested to know that, since the advent of the BARF fashion, the proportion of stones assayed that come from dalmatians has risen from 3% of the total to 5% ... :( 95% of the bladder stones (over 50,000 of them) assayed at Minnesota are from breeds other than dalmatians. It's not as rare as you seem to think.

LOL! I've just read even further down her site, and she recommends giving dogs leeks and raisins! :rolleyes:

Sorry - still haven't got links right - but have a look at
http://www.veterinarypartner.com/Content.plx?P=A&A=1833&S=2

which relates to the toxicity of raisins to dogs - Aussies in particular.

Hmm, that alone would make me ignore any other information/guidance that Wendy Volhard may give

Margot

Having recently changed my dogs onto a raw diet, I've done a lot of reading. Even in Ian Billinghurst's "The BARF diet", he recommends feeding grapes, and with him being a vet I would of thought he should have known better.