Hi,  Some of you have given me advice in the past about when I have new visitors coming into the house.  Now we have had our dog for a little bit longer I have a bit more detail on his behaviour and wonder if anybody has any further advice.

Basically we have gone through the greet the person at the door and let them in and this can go okay.  We did a staged visit yesterday with a friend to see exactly what would happen afterwards and this is the result - quite a yarn so bear with me.

The friend came in to lots of barking - was introduced and gave treats - all going well.  The friend and hubby went into the garden and dog was pouncing on his feet (well prepared for this and clad in motorcycle boots and trousers) left alone the dog tried to keep a grip, when the friend carried on walking dog kept trying to keep him in one place by pouncing again at his feet and gripping with his teeth.  After a while the dog calmed down and seemed to be not worried about the friend being in the garden, so the friend tried to walk back towards the house to see what would happen - as he got half way down so the dog sprang into action raced to the back door step and barked like mad.  Friend backed off - barking stopped. Treat given.  Waited a while tried again - half way down the garden - barking started at the back step.

So - most definitely territorial guarding not aversion to strangers as such.  We have decided on two possible courses of action depending on who the visitor is and what their feelings are about dogs- one is we will crate him and when he is good let the visitor drop treats into his crate from high above so he may start to see visitors as a good thing.  The other we tried last night as we had a willing volunteer - we put his muzzle on but left him running around - he gave up on the visitor in the garden and went indoors to play with the kids...

With people he has seen outside of the home on several occasions he doesnt do this if they come in to the house. 

I suppose what I'm wondering is if there is some way of telling them they can be 'off duty' from territorial guarding - I dont want to eliminate this altogether after all if a burglar came in I would be grateful - just nice to know how to tell him not to worry I'll do the worrying....

Any thoughts gratefully received,

Maxine

First I think you are doing a marvellous job in 'staging' senerios, but this bit confused me

Friend backed off - barking stopped. Treat given. ?

I may be wrong but did you just reward him for not allowing someone to enter? Because to me by giving him a treat when your friend backed off, told him he had done the right thing?

(I do treat my dogs when they've barked enough to scare doorstep sellers away ;) But if visitors come and they continue this I only treat if they stop barking, calm down and let people in :) )

I have the same problem with my dogs,so I have to lock them in the kitchen until they calm down.when I do let them in,I tell them to get in their beds straight away or sit down,I have to be so tough with them,it has taken a long time to get the message over,but as I never yell or raise my voice usually when I do,they know I mean it,I also dont want to stop them completely as in the winter I am often on my own and I feel safer if my husband is working nights knowing they will guard the house,but this is a double edged sword and I am not sure if you can ever really have it both ways,I am no expert with dog training,but at least you know your not alone!

ash

Many dogs - even those not obviously termed as guarding breeds - have a natural guarding instinct which kicks in as and when required.  Because of this it is very important that guarding instinct is never encouraged - we live in an ever litigious obsessed and anti dog society :(  The responsible thing to do is discourage displays of guarding behaviour from the outset and, as you're currently doing Ashlee, to ensure they are kept apart from visitors until such times as you have the situation (and the dogs) under control.

We all hope and pray that our dogs never need to display this side of their characters but naturally take comfort in the fact that they will.  Unfortunately many owners do not appreciate just what lengths their much loved family pet would go to in order to protect his owners and their property.

Hmmm,

I'm with Missie here - it comes across as though you rewarded the dog for inappropriate behaviour rather than for calming down

I've not read back at your previous thread but it strikes me from what you've written here that you would be better to shut your dog away when visitors are coming, only introducing him to them in a controlled manner when they are settled and seated in your lounge for example.

My dogs go ballistic at the door bell until told firmly but calmy "that'll do" - but unless it's someone they know really well at the door, I always put them away and only bring them back out when my visitors are in situ.  This gives the dogs a clear indication that I have accepted the visitors, ergo they must do also :)

It sounds to me (and apologies if I've read this all wrong) as though you are presently (and unintentionally) actively encouraging protective / defensive behaviour - never a good idea!   Something which I think you will need to look closely at.

Teri

oops ,sorry teri didnt mean to post above you!

:D  I can't work this board either :D

Hi,

Thanks for those thoughts.  One thing is I have to say that I wasnt at home when this was happening - I was at work so it was OH and friend doing this.  My OH had not seen the dog pounce at anybodys feet before and thought I was imagining it all and that the dog should just be left to roam around at will.  It was only because I insisted that he went through these stages.  To answer some of your points:

Missie:  I had suggested that only when the dog was behaving nicely should our guest give him a treat to try and get the dog to see guests as a pleasurable experience.  I'm told that after the guest had gone back down the garden and the dog had settled that was when our guest gave him a treat.

Teri:  Our breed is one that was originally bred for herding and guarding so I have tried to convince OH that this may be a genetic trate that wont ever go totally and one that we may always have to 'manage' - he firmly believes I'm talking rubbish and that this wont continue and he will become everybodys best friend:rolleyes:  We do however manage to do a very nice meet and greet at the door and guests seem to be fine, it seems to be when they then decide to move from one location to another - ie garden to kitchen.

Do you think that if we do the meet and greet and were then to put him in his crate (say inthe lounge with us) he then stays in the crate till visitors leave, or maybe let him out but keep him on a lead so any surprise movements are noticed quickly and easily controlled or maybe use the muzzle or anything really ...

One point though I most definitely if new children are in will go with the shut away completely, I wouldnt want anybody to get the impression I would take any chances - I wouldnt...

thanks

Maxine

Sorry, I stand corrected :)

May I make a suggestion on the crating idea when visitors come? Does he like going in his crate? Because, and forgive me if I get this wrong, but if you crate him and he doesn't like it, won't he then associate visitors with this and be more resentful towards them? If not and he likes going in there and is happy to do so then he could be rewarded when he does it of his own accord? If so, then once your visitors/friends have sat down, maybe you could get them to stand up then sit back down after a few seconds and only when he doesn't move, reward him again. Each time taking it a step further until he's happy with them moving about.
I hope you understand what I'm trying to say? :)

Dee

Hi Maxine. I won't comment on methods (others are far more qualified than I on this subject) but I do sympathise with the problem of convincing other members of the household to a) accept the nature of the problem and b) stick to the agreed training method. 

I expect my dogs to let callers know that their pass will to be inspected but once I am at the door, the calming signal and word are expected to be obeyed or they (dogs not visitors) will be shut in kitchen. I also like them to sit at the open inner door when I open the outer porch door so anyone dodgy can see them. Where this all goes wrong is in the methods adopted by other members of family which generally fall into the yelling-and-waving-your-arms-about variety...If it was only me and the dogs it would all be so different...(lapses into self-delusional fantasy of Dr. Dolittle proportions....)

I'm always slightly concerned when any sort of territorial guarding is encouraged, even when the reasons seem quite reasonable - being alone in the house, for example. As well as the litigious issue, there's also the problem of "switching off" a dog that is encouraged, in some circumstances, to "guard" and then expected to recognise the many other circumstances when this behaviour isn't desirable. If you have a breed which is hard-wired for guarding it's probably even harder!

The first time visitor problem can be a tough one to crack but I think you are doing very well, Maxine. I've actually found that keeping things as calm as possible (including the calm removal for a time-out!) worked for me as well as repeated, low-key reminders to settle down. I was just about to say that this has been really effective since we've had a plumber in all morning who, apart from one bark when his van drew up, has mainly been ignored. But then I looked down at my feet and noticed A Very Quiet Small Dog, determinedly (but quietly) chewing the end of a brush he'd nicked from him.  :rolleyes:

Hi, I'm grateful for all thoughts and ideas, definitely not taking anything the wrong way. 

I think the practising standing up and sitting down would be a good one - I have asked OH to ask his friend if he would try again.  He wasnt phased by any of it at all and wouldnt give off a sense of being scared for the dog to pick up on.  

He loves his crate so I can also try the - in the crate for quiet times - come out and try again.

Having children I definitely dont want to encourage guarding because I am not yet confident that the dog would discriminate between children and adults so I apply the prevention strategy when children are around.  I must add that the people that have had their feet pounced on have all been larger than life height/weight/voice - four people in total .  I have had four first time visitors that dont fit this mould that havent been pounced on but then stayed in one place - so I'm taking that as luck rather than judgement..

Maybe I'll advertise for willing volunteers of all shapes and sizes to come and meet my pet dog and see if he pounces - try and build a profile..... oh dear - everybody will think I'm going mad lol

Max

You know looking at the stand up and sit down idea I'm sure I've read that on a post before - get a few people round and they take turns in standing up and sitting down....  I'll find some more willing volunteers I think - and hand out galoshes at the door as they come in!!!!

LOL I can just picture the scene, something like the mexican wave :P :P

Sounds like you're going to be busy :)

Everyone at the park and my caravan site think I'm mad - every time I see somebody walking a dog I follow them and say 'Can I walk with you I'm trying to socialise my dog' - Middle aged men say yes, women say yes - but unfortunately good looking young men run a mile!!!

I'm just trying to remember the background info on your boy, I can't remember how you first realised he wasn't keen on visitors.

Like Teri I have a BSD, she was intensely socialised and adores visitors - almost too much !! Bless :P She won't bark at people or even dogs going by, or anything like that - unless she is suspicious or if they hang around, then she will. I believe, as others have said, that they can be friendy as anything but that instinct will kick in when needed :)

Lindsay
x

Hi - the first time I realised was when I had a man come to mend the washing machine and my angel shot through the dog flap and grabbed him by the ankle, the second time my childminder went into the house to see the dog for me so he wasnt left on his own too long and took her husband who he had never met before and he pounced and held on to his trousers, the third time was at my caravan a trainer and friend who both owned dogs of the same breed came to visit me to see if he was typical of the breed or aggressive, we had spent 2 hours with them they had been in the van once, then went for a walk and some training, then came back to van sat down and the friend moved as if she was getting up and got pounced, the fourth was this staged visitor... 

He acts like a big guard dog but looks like a stuffed toy - which is why I am so careful with kids.  I dont know what he would do but most kids would expect fun and cuddles I'm sure whereas they would probably be a bit more cautious with a bigger dog.

My advice would be to contact a very reputable behaviourist, I hope that doesn't sound as if I'm belittling your friend, but in this case I feel you need an assessment from someone experienced in "aggression". Reason I say that  is because of the DDA and so on, your dog only has to scare someone, even if he doesn't hurt them, to be in trouble. 

You would have help for instance in identifying triggers for his behaviour and help in management/addressing the problem/hopefully improving his problem :)

Also he should have a thorough vet check as his behaviour may have medical causes, unless of course you know exactly why he did this (eg he was treated badly by a man who looked like the washing machine man). Many vets will give a once over, at least eyes, ears etc should be checked over - also preferably more in depth tests such as hypothyroid, blood etc.

I hope you don't mind me suggesting this; but do be wary as to who you speak to if you decide to contact a behaviourist; don't go for one in the freeads or whatever, see instead; www.apbc.org.uk

Just my view :)

Good luck
Lindsay
x

Hi

thanks for those ideas, one thing is though there is absolutely no issue with strangers outside - happy to meet everybody - small numbers, large numbers, men, women and children. 

I have spoken to my vet, a behaviourist who is also an owner of the same breed, the rescue rep for the breed club, the fosterer who had him before me, a trainer who is also an owner of the breed and another owner of the breed - all who said definitely not aggressive just protecting.  I still wasnt 100% convinced until I went to an aggressive dog training class last week - he most definitely was nothing like the dogs there and at the end of the class I was invited to chat with the 'guvnor' of the centre and he advised that my dog was most definitely not aggressive and most definitely should not attend that class.

So I am now happy that he isnt aggressive, is undersocialised with dogs but getting better every day and we walk with some, say hello to some and the odd few are told they arent welcome.

The biggest issue is definitely this 'pounce' - the trainer/owner who witnessed it was amazed because there was absolutely no sign of aggression - no freezing, growling, snarling, barking or snapping.  It was just very much like a cat when it pounces on a mouse - so at that point we thought maybe it was inappropriate play - we had lots of toys that encouraged pouncing action and he had also been on a farm running around for six months- just possible mice/rats were a form of entertainment..

Thats when we decided to stage this visitor and play it through - and from that I now think it is guarding - so that is the issue we will need to manage.

I will add that all the people I spoke to with the same breed (and they all seem to own 3 or 4 - none of them stick to one) - they all say that they completely keep theirs in a separate room or crated when they have visitors.  I could cope with this - we arent inundated with visitors but OH expects me to turn him into 'Lassie' I think...

I shall continue in my endeavours  and try out all ideas and recommendations - if you read about a mad dog owner being committed to an asylum for bizarre behaviour you know its me.....

thanks all and have a good evening,

Maxine