This is a bit of a long story but any help and advice will be greatfully received :) . Last saturday my mum got married, and as neither my older brother or the eldest of my sisters lives locally, they stayed at my house, along with my three youngest sisters my sister in law and my nephew, that was no problem the dogs know everybody and are always happy to see them, as my mum and new hubby went out for the evening we decided to have a BBQ along with my step brother. Any way me and my brother had an arguement in the middle of which my 14 month old vizsla/lab cross Mya walked in, my brother then hit her causing her to cry and hit the floor, he said she bit him to which i have said there is no way see could have done as she had a bone in her mouth that she dropped when he hit her, when he hit her the arguement escalated, obviously due to my brother hitting Mya. I have since found out from my step brother that when me and my brother were arguing he raised his arm to make a point (after hitting Mya) and Bruce my 2 1/2 year old lab went to bite him, he has never done this before and i wasnt aware of it at the time as i was more concerned for Mya. This is were the advice comes in, since saturday Bruce has been extremely pushy, disobident, vocal and has had a few squabbles with Jack my springer, i feel this is down to the events of saturday, he felt that he needed to protect either himself, Mya or me as he can be quite protective but never in this way before, he has been booked in to the vets for a tardak injection, he had this first done back in october due to his increased affections to the kitten at the time the vet said to monitor how he goes as each dog can be different the injection it can last anything from a month to a year, im trying the tardak injection first to see if this makes any inprovement, i dont want promote Bruce in his ranks, Tess his mum is my second in command followed by jack, bruce and then mya, (Bruce is very respectful of his mum as are the other two) when bruce had the first tardak after discussion with the vet he was promoted to below tess to help with his humping, this was fine until Jack was fed up being lower and beat bruce up so they swapped ranks and everything was fine until saturday.
so has any one any advice every piece will be greatfully received so that i can get my lovable boy back
Tanya

i'd like to add my mum has told my brother when he visits again he is to stay in a hotel/b and b ive also said id take Mya to work when he is down so as not to put her in that sort of situation again, as she is now hand shy and scared of men :(

Hi,

What a terrible story and what a nasty brother, I certainly wouldn't even allow him in my house, poor Mya you will have to build her confidence back up.  So as to help us, (especially me) can you please list which dogs are which breeds and ages, as it will make a difference to pack pecking order, some breeds are more dominant than others.

Then hopefully those with good behavioural knowledge can help. :-)

right first up and the top ranking dog is tess she is a 6 year old labrador, second is Jack a 4 year old springer/cocker cross, then there is Bruce he a 2 1/2 year old labrador (tess' pup) and then Mya my 14 month old vizsla/lab cross. tess and jack are neutered, mya is not yet spayed but will be after her next season, bruce is not casturated, i dont really want to get im done as other than the events of the last week he wouldnt hurt a fly, also he hurt his shoulder when he was a pup and he is a big boy (41 kilos not an once of fat on him) and the vet thinks that casturation could affect his shoulder in the future so would rather not casturate him.
Mya is slowly coming round, and hopefully will be back to normally confident bubbly self before much longer

tanya

With only 18 months between the two boys and the smaller older one neutered I would think that eventually your Lab boy is going to be above him in hierarchy, and this may be what is going on.  If the Spaniel is not that bothered about his rank, then I would let Bruce take over as top male as the girls will still rule over him at the very least his Mum.

Trying to artificially keep Jack higher might actually be encouraging Bruce to try harder to get up the totem pole.

Of course this is pure conjecture on my part and a person who understands dog behaviour would need to see them all interacting.

im trying the tardak first but i had thought that i may need to get a behaviourist in to assess the situation, the best of it is they were all fine in their ranks until Mya was hit, Bruce has got above is position by protecting his family :(
Bruce was higher in ranks than Jack before but Jack worked his way back up above Bruce

tanya

I hate to say this but protecting family etc is nothing to do with rank - a dog who is low down in the canine hierarchy may still act to proctect if he/she feels there is need although if there are several dogs in the room it is the more confident one who would try to protect. This is not necessarily the one ranking highest in canine terms as pack ranking is fluid.

A dog who is boss in the home may be shyer out on walks for instance - so the pack can often be fluid.

Tardak I would say would not be the answer, i'd be more inclined to solve things from a training/behavioural angle so you are wise to get in  abehaviourist I feel. Try www.apbc.org.uk or www.apdt.co.uk (some are behaviourists but not all). Be very very wary with franchises, and any behaviourist who is not a member of these organisations as they may take your money and not solve the problem, or even use methods which will make things worse in the long run  :)

Good luck :)

I totally agree with Lindsay. 

It's not always a good idea to try Tardak, or surgical castration, when a dog is showing aggressive behaviour.  Your lab was obviously afraid that your violent brother was going to hurt either you or another dog in the pack, and so he was going to protect you.  This action wasn't based on an irrational fear, but on the very real incident of watching another dog being hit.  The behaviour you describe since then sounds understandably very insecure, and he might need the courage which comes from being intact in order not to feel pushed into aggressive behaviour again.  In other words, castration can sometimes make aggression worse, not better.

In this situation you just say that the dog went to bite your brother.  Not that he actually did - in fact as you weren't aware of it until later, he can't have made such a big attempt to do so.  This is a lot less worrying than a dog which actually did bite and break the skin.

I'd also be a bit concerned about your Vizsla, who your brother hit.  I just can't imagine being involved in an argument with someone, a dog coming in the room, and somehow becoming the target of that aggression for no reason.  Especially as there was a bone involved here, are you sure there wasn't any guarding behaviour on the part of your Vizsla, even just growling?  And perhaps you didn't see what went before the hitting??

In any case, I think you should focus on building up your dogs' trust and confidence, remedial socialisation with men, resource guarding exercises and so on. 

Mya (my vizsla x) can be a bit pushy, and she likes to 'show' you what she has this is normally by pushing what she has into whatever she can reach on you, if you're standing then its no higher than your hand if you're bent over/sat down it can be your face, chest or whatever is nearest, Mya had walked into the kitchen where my brother was and walked upto him/past him he hit her as he hit her she dropped her bone, so i have no doubts that she didnt attempt to bite him, he couldnt show me any marks or give me a reason as to why, i have said a dog will not simply walk up to you and bite, if she had shown these tendancies it would have been towards my sisters or my nephew who is three and more at face level. Mya can be a bit 'mouthy' but i have also found this withthe full vizslas at work, she has neverr marked or infact bitten in any way at all.
Bruce has never shown aggressive behaviour before so the incident was completley out of character for him, its since then that ive been having problems with Bruce, so his behaviour im putting down to the incident, i want to try tardak again incase it is more a case of his hormones rather than what had happened, as tardak helped to curb his affectons towards the kitten im hoping it will work again, if not then i will consult a behaviourist,
it just goes to show how just one incident can upset the whole pecking order :(

tanya

As 123 said, Bruce was not acting irrationally but out of "knowledge" - quite understandably.

If anything he is probably upset about what has gone on and any resultant stress in the family etc. If your brother hits dogs, it goes without saying but make sure
he is never in any situation able to do this again, whicn I think you have said you have done :)

I think you are right to put his behaviour down to the incident, but I think he's acting normally and may just need things to settle down.

Lindsay
x

i hope things do settle down as i miss my lovable boy, the pushy noisy boy is getting on everyones nerves even the parrot has taken to telling off, 'Bruce stop it', Bruce shut up', 'Bruce get down', 'leave it Bruce', 'BRUCE' :D i dont know whats more annoying Bruces behaviour (or lack of it) or the parrot telling him to stop it :D

tanya

Sorry gundogsrbest, didn't mean to ask a question then disappear.......... but I did :-D  Back now and I can see you have had some fantastic advice, just like to add after seeing the breeds and ages, I wouldn't worry that Bruce is trying to go up the pecking ladder, to be honest he doesn't stand a chance Tess will be the respected Alpha female followed by Mya who will most definitely knock back both Jack and Bruce very shortly and put them in their places any fracases between them should soon be sorted out by your two bitches. Jack already attacking Bruce once will not be the type of dog to move over anyway even though he is smaller. So Bruce should firmly stay where he is.

He is very distressed by what has happened as suggested by Lindsay and 123 he is taking his stance against your brother's actions but this is not affecting his pack order but his human to dog communications.  He is taking the protective role, which is different to an Alpha role. He most definitely saw Mya get hit, he most definitely saw the concequent raised voices! And actions from everyone afterwards. He is a young adult and he will remember this.

I would suggest plenty of human male interactions inviting 'nice' men into your home to build back his confidence, he is actually probably very distressed that he needed to bite or attempt to bite, may even feel very 'naughty' and not know his role anymore and if not careful  may view males as perspective threats to his dog and human family.

Re-socialise, lots of hugs and I agree with Saxon. (The sooner the better ;-) )  Be aware of his role as the protector and don't give him any worries that he will be needed in this way, you need to do a fast about turn for him to feel you are all safe.

Thank you everyone for your advice, my vet echoed your advice, and Bruce had a great time in the waiting room making sure that everyone fussed him :D there was a couple with a little frise puppy that Bruce thought was great, even the cat owners let Bruce say hello, but then ive always said once youve met Bruce you will never forget him, he makes sure of it :D so fingers crossed my boy will be back soon, the real test is this weekend, im off to manchester for my nephews christening, the 'two nutters' Jack and Mya are going to the kennels and Tess and Bruce are staying home and my boss is coming to let them out, feed them etc, they have done this before for me but not since the other week so fingers crossed it'll all go smoothly

tanya

Don't bother taking the dog to the vet. Castrate your brother.