I had my youngster X-rayed today and the vet used a sedative. A friend of mine wants to have her dog checked out and all the vets in her area will only do it under a general anaesthetic. She has been told that it is less risk as vets (apparently) keep a better eye on the dog under a GA. I have been told that using a GA may result in a higher score? Is that possible? The vet I went to is my own practice and I know that some of you have used him. The estimate he gave for my boy was very good but would it really have made a difference if instead of being sedated he was completely out?

Sedation must be deep sedation under the terms of the scheme so I would prefer anaesthesia as the dog is intubed and his breathing can be safeguarded.  Anaesthetic is easier to reverse too.
I can't really see why the score would be different under either method as it seems to me under deep sedation the limbs would be just as relaxed but I am not a vet so perhaps you should ask the vet that performed it.

I was also told that sedation meant that the hipscore would be better as the dog is more relaxed as still partially awake, spoke to a vet and they said that this is not so, she is also one of the top show people!

As Isabel has put it is easier to bring a dog round from a GA if there are problems not so easy if the dog is under sedation so I always put my dogs under GA.

Aggghhhh I'm getting worried now as my baby has hers done tomorrow!!!

Hm my imported GSD had a hip score of 0:0=0 done under GS by Jill Read, don't think it would have been any better under sedation

Hundreds and thousands of people, like myself, choose to travel hundreds of miles to have our dogs hip/elbow scored under sedation as we do NOT want them put under GA.

You must choose what you think is best for your dog, everyone has an opinion............. ;)

>>Hundreds and thousands of people, like myself, choose to travel hundreds of miles to have our dogs hip/elbow scored under sedation as we do NOT want them put under GA.<<

Thanks Tohme,  personally I didn't want him put under a GA and luckily I have an excellent vet that uses a sedative and is experienced in this sort of thing. I know that a lot of people travel to use him. It is quite a relief to have had it done at last as by yesterday I had convinced myself that he had something wrong with him :rolleyes:

Malcolm Willis, a renowned geneticist and KC member, says regarding the type of anaethesia used:
Anaesthetic:
Recent information suggests that anesthetics can give rise to greater joint laxity than will sedatives. Thus a dog that is anaesthetized MAY show a higher score for Norberg angle and Subluxation than the same dog would if merely sedated. Most schemes seek to anaesthetize dogs and thus all are being compared on valid terms. If however, a breeder is submitting animals that are sedated it could lead to slightly lower scores and thus apparently better results than rivals who are using anesthetics. This must be borne in mind when considering score data.

I don't think it is "borne in mind" though, when they assess the xrays, is it???  I'm not aware that they are told how the dog was dealt with when xrays are submitted in the UK...

I think he means that owners have to bear it in mind when looking at scores (when selecting a stud, etc); that there's a possibility that the xray was done under sedation and the subsequent possibility that it's lower than it would have been if done under GA.

Does that mean that my dog could have had a better score than he has? (2/3=5!) I was more than pleased with the results as it was, but if I could have had better ones .... ;)

Personally, I would rather my dogs were put out completely, but have a vet who knows what they are doing actually x-ray the dog. So many vets don't really have a clue, as they don't do a large amount for scoring. The vets I use now do a lot and so far, touch wood, every dog in my breed that they have done has had a score under 10. Find out how many x-rays the vets do each month before letting them touch your dog. Whether under GA or sedation.

Well after being recommended a vet on here who did dogs under sedation I sent them an e-mail asking A)  Do you get a better score from dogs that are scored under sedation rather than GA.  The answer was a resounding NO !!

B)  Is it safer to do sedation rather than GA and I got the same reply.

This was from a vet recommended on this site!  So I went the GA way as I've heard a lot of problems about sedation as I have GA.

Well thankfully my girls fine and running around now.

I think Lindylou has put it excellently when she says "............but have a vet who knows what they are doing actually x-ray the dog. So many vets don't really have a clue, as they don't do a large amount for scoring.............."

I want to use a vet that is is experienced in handling the dog in order to get the best-possible x-rays - and is of course, experienced in either the sedation or ga used.   For this reason, I travel up to the veterinary hospital at Cambridge - every Thursday during university term time is dedicated to hip/elbow x-rays.

Margot

i only put my dogs under ga to get a better xray plate of the hips.
as well as bring a very good vet that can put the dog in the right postion they got to be a good radiologys put the two together you should get a good hip score.

i only trust my vet to do my dogs beacuse they got their history on file incase any thing dose go wronge with a ga.thank god it has not happen to my dogs.out of 10 dogs over the pass 16 years 7 of them below the avage score ,two just above but one was due bye a injury at 4 1/2 months.one high score.plus one elbow score 0

She has been told that it is less risk as vets (apparently) keep a better eye on the dog under a GA.

RUBBISH!!  all dogs regardless of they are sedated or GA'd should have a nurse with them watching them at all times, vets do their thing and leave the monitoring to the nurses!!

Sedation must be deep sedation under the terms of the scheme.

again NOT TRUE! i have assisted with many many hip scores and NOWHERE on the form submitted is there any thing to say that the dog was under a full GA/Heavy sedation!!  you could hold down a fully awake dog if you wished to do so!

Anaesthetic is easier to reverse too

NOT TRUE!!!!!  in the years i have been monitoring GA;s and sedation i have never found a GA easier to reverse!  a full GA means the dog is given a pre med, an injectable anesthetic drug which knocks it out deep enough to tube, then it is hooked up to a gas anaesthetic to keep it asleep.  they have to breathe in the gas to stay asleep and breathe the GA gas out of their system to wake up, WHAT IF THEY STOP BREATHING???  which DOES happen, we have to breath for them and hope they start on their own accord.  if not monitored properly it is easy for them to be given TOO much gas and go far too deep and stop breathing. 

with a sedation they are given enough to keep them still enough to place in the position for the xray, they still have reflexes and breath on their own, as long as they are carefully weighed and given a correct dose they should not go deep enough to impair breathing.  with certain sedation drugs there is an injectable reversal agent.  THERE IS NO REVERSAL TO GAS ANAESTHETIC!!  the dog must breathe it out of its system to wake up!

i certainly would avoid GA's on my own dogs at all costs and would only hipscore mine under sedation. 

>>She has been told that it is less risk as vets (apparently) keep a better eye on the dog under a GA. <<  >>RUBBISH!!  all dogs regardless of they are sedated or GA'd should have a nurse with them watching them at all times, vets do their thing and leave the monitoring to the nurses!!<<

Thats what I thought, BUT the person that told her this is a VET.

>>Sedation must be deep sedation under the terms of the scheme.<<

>>again NOT TRUE! i have assisted with many many hip scores and NOWHERE on the form submitted is there any thing to say that the dog was under a full GA/Heavy sedation!!  you could hold down a fully awake dog if you wished to do so!<<

Actually when Isabel posted that I checked on the BVA site and it does state under the procedure notes that "It is NECESSARY to employ general anaesthesia, narcosis or deep sedation to enable only mechanical (ie non manual) restraint for the positioning of the animal" Therefore for the X-rays to be submitted under the scheme you could not hold down a fully awake dog if you wished to do so, nor do I think it would be wise to try ;-)

>>Anaesthetic is easier to reverse too<<

>>NOT TRUE!!!!!  in the years i have been monitoring GA;s and sedation i have never found a GA easier to reverse!<<

The vet I usually see (not the vet that did the X-rays) who is a partner at the same practice told me some time ago that they use a sedative as it is less risk for the dog but I have heard different stories from other people.

I asked the question on here as I wanted a range of opinions from different people so that my friend can make an informed decision on what is best for her dog. :-)

"...to enable only mechanical (ie non manual) restraint for the positioning of the animal"

When I had my youngest hip scored last year, the sedation was not deep.  She could still walk, although drunkenly, and, as she's full of beans, it took 2 of us to physically and manually hold her in place while the x ray was taken.  I was holding her upper body and an assistant was holding her lower body in the correct position for the x ray.  She didn't like being put on her back at all, and even under sedation it did take 2 people to physically hold her in the right place for an x ray.

This was at a very reputable hip scorers, who people travel a long way to see, so I assume that many others have had scores done with the same procedure.  It was a very good score, by the way.

I would definitely go for the sedation option every time.

Actually when Isabel posted that I checked on the BVA site and it does state under the procedure notes that "It is NECESSARY to employ general anaesthesia, narcosis or deep sedation to enable only mechanical (ie non manual) restraint for the positioning of the animal

it might state this on their site BUT on the actual form the vet signs and submits with the x ray film there is NO declaration or anything the vet has to sign that states HOW the x rays were taken and whether they were under GA or sedation of if they were held in place. 

the vast majority of hip scores i have assisted with whether under GA or sedation have been held in place by the vet!  as it is the quickest and surest way to get the correct positioning.  often we can take several shots when restraining with ties etc and still not get it right.

so the BVA has absolutly no idea if the films they are looking at were done under GA or sedation.  so in theory you can do the x rays fully awake but agree it would not be wise to do so unless you had a very placid dog! ;-)
although i am sure i read about a breeder with a smaller breed that trains them to lie on their backs! 

>so the BVA has absolutly no idea if the films they are looking at were done under GA or sedation.

You would just hope all vets were aware of the protocols and ethical enough to abide by then.
I'm glad you took the trouble to correct your mistake in contradicting me in capitals although perhaps an appology thrown in might have been nice :)  It is worrying though that someone apparently involved in the the participation of this scheme, albeit perhaps just as an assistant, has not troubled to look at the protocols previously.
Now that we understand we are talking about deep sedation, when the protocols are adhered to ;), it would appear that what people have to say about differences has a rather different emphasis than those that are comparing it with the light sedation that is not permitted under the scheme.

What is the technical difference between "deep" and "light" sedation?  Are these medical terms, with concrete definitions?

I would imagine they can be defined by which responses are still available to the dog, ie response to stimulus, pupil response to light, self breathing etc.  Seems unlikely that the BVA would stipulate if they can't be defined :)

I'm told that with 'light' sedation, the dog is still conscious but more physically relaxed.

At least one vet at the practice I work will no longer prescribe ACP for owners to lightly sedate their dogs during firework night (for example) because it's been found that the animal is still aware of what's going on and the mental response is the same, but it can't do anything to make itself feel happier, such as hide under the bed; he believes this is cruel.

In that case, if that's the definition, mine was under "light" sedation for hip scoring - with a highly recommended and much-used hip-scorer too...

it appears you are looking for an argument . i have no idea why i should apologise to you for pointing out incorrect info?  and correct my mistake?? what mistake??    the use of capitals was to emphasise certain points not to contradicte you personally.  i am well aware of the protocols, thank you very much, and have been for some time as i am very sure are all the vets i have worked with. 

>Sedation must be deep sedation under the terms of the scheme.

>again NOT TRUE!

>Actually when Isabel posted that I checked on the BVA site and it does state under the procedure notes that "It is NECESSARY to employ general anaesthesia, narcosis or deep sedation to enable only mechanical (ie non manual) restraint for the positioning of the animal

I'm certainly not looking for an arguement, your post are clear and there for anyone to see :), you made a mistake, my information was not incorrect as you then found out and clearly didn't know the protocols.

ah ok, i see what you mean and i do apologise :-) as i worded this wrongly, when i said this i was referring to the actual form that the vet signs and submits with the x ray, not the procedure portocols.  i meant that it is not true the vet has to sign to say to say the x rays were done under GA.

I dare say you will be bringing the protocols to your employer's attention now though ;)

i have already pointed out to them on every occassion when they hold x rays that they should not be holding hipscores or indeed any x rays, i will not repeat what they said to me........

In health and safety terms they are being daft but I suppose that is up to them but if they are physically manipulating the legs of dogs during Xray, against the protocols, I would be reporting them to the BVA.  People don't need good results they need accurate results.  The base lines to compare the results to are set by the all the other dogs being correctly Xrayed.  You are not trying to beat them, well some people might be :rolleyes:, you want a reference to compare your dog to the average or it's forbears perhaps.  To manipulate the methods used against the standard being applied in the scheme is no help at all to that breeder who will then just gain a false reference for their future breeding plans even if they have something good to print in the year book :)

You have to hold the legs in the correct position to get an xray which will show you the hips.  You could also tie them there, I suppose, but if the dog is sedated rather than under a GA, and can still move, it is easier to hold them there physically.  Seeing as, either way, they are being artificially placed in a particular position, I'm not sure what the difference is between physically holding them or tying them in some way

The protocols are available on the BVA site for all to see :)
Only in EXCEPTIONAL (sic) circumstances should the dog be manually restrained.   
If every one follows the same procedures as closely to the recommendations as possible the results they all obtain have far more meaning that if variations are introduced.

But Isabel, what is the difference between manually restraining them and tying them in a specific position???

As for the protocols, guess the vet I went to, who is one of the top hip-scoring vets in the UK going by the number of times she's been recommended to people on this site alone, is not abiding by them.  I'd guess that most vets who use sedation aren't though.

It seems to me there is more scope for manipulation when done manually than mechanically but I am not a vet so I can not say for sure however I do know enough about research to know that if you reduce all the possible variables when gathering data you will achieve more meaningful and therefore useful results. 
If all dogs are incapacitated and restrained by the methods outlined in the protocols that is how you are going to reduce those variables and enable you to move forward confidently with your results.

I'm only guessing, but I'd have thought the KC would be very reluctant to sanction or even recommend a procedure (manually restraining) that potentially puts a person at risk from radiation. With the dog tied in position, all people can be out of the room and at much less risk. It minimises the risk of possible legal action for damage at a later date. Just a guess, though. :)

Yes, they do seem to be making that point in the procedure notes.

Well isn't it strange how vets have told me the opposite from you then scratchy about sedation?  Just goes to show that we can'#t believe everything we hear or see in writing.

My dogs under GA have been up and about quite quickly, though poor Carmen yesterday wouldn't lie down and was trying to chase her toy, it looked so funny, as though she was in slow motion.  She's her usual mad self today running around, jumping over things etc.  All but one of mine have come through with good results, hopefully Carmen's will too.  With an untrained eye they looked good to me, but hey I don't have a clue :d

I've had dogs have both GAs and deep sedation for various procedures (not hip scoring) and they certainly come round a lot quicker from sedation than GA.

Is Isoflorane (sp) a GA or Sedative,a s I ahve had a reversal jab with one of mien when she was hip scored, adn I beleive that was the drug used?

This site says that isoflorane is an inhalant anaesthetic, and this one says it is eliminated from the body by respiration.

Isoflurane is the gas used for anaesthesia so it must be an anaesthetic

Geoff Skerritt uses sedation for the MRI scans for SHM & advised us it was better for this as Lou would be less affected afterwards. He did warn there were risks with both GA & deep sedation

I know Jill Reed uses a sling to place the dogs in rather than having them on a table & all the dogs I've had done by her have been up & around quickly, I've only had one dog X rayed on a table & although his hips were good he was quite stiff for a while afterwards

So I am still unsure what the jab ws to help bring my bitch around when she was still wobbly after a GA?

well, it would depend on what drugs they gave her, there are many different drugs and combinations that can be given.  as i said previously a GA consits of a pre med, then the injectable anaesthetic then the gas anaesthetic so i would imagine they used a particular drug in her pre med and it was this that was reversed.  this particular drug can also be used to induce sedation, all that differs is the dose rate :-)

well thanks for all your help, I have passed on your comments to my friend. I think she is going to go down the sedation route. Her dog is a rescue and she is not keen on leaving him at the vets all day as she thinks he may get stressed, he had a few problems when she brought him home with separation so it looks like she will be travelling to find a vet that sedates! :-D

Just read this thread about manual and mechanical restraining.  My dogs are X-rayed under sedation.  The Vet I use takes you into the X-ray room while he is setting the dog up and you are asked to leave just while he actually presses the X-ray button, then you can return to your dogs side.  He does not restrain the dog in any way at all.  My bitch has just come back with a 5:3 score from a mother of 4:13 and a father of 4:7.  IMO he can't be doing much wrong in positioning of the dog when he is getting scores like this from sedation and without any restraint whatsoever.

That must be pretty deep sedation?  Could your dogs walk? 

It is deep sedation.  We have to carry the dog through with the Vet, but we are with them the whole time and the dogs can hear us and still react to our voices.  The vet then administers a reversal and the dog comes around very quickly and walks out of the vets.  You can feed them and water them beforehand and straight afterwards (if you felt the need).  However, I feel it is the most stress free way to have the dog hip scored and still get good plates.

>with a sedation they are given enough to keep them still enough to place in the position for the xray, they still have reflexes and breath on their own, as long as they are carefully weighed and given a correct dose they should not go deep enough to impair breathing.<

Therein lies the difficulty - individual responses to sedation vary greatly - the correct dose for one dog will floor another.  And if breathing were impaired, there is no intubation safeguard.

>if not monitored properly it is easy for them to be given TOO much gas and go far too deep and stop breathing.<

You said it yourself:

>all dogs regardless of they are sedated or GA'd should have a nurse with them watching them at all times<

>you could hold down a fully awake dog if you wished to do so!<

And your vet was prepared to risk you getting a dose of radiation.

I agree with Isabel. It is easier to control a GA. There is an awful bit in Our Dogs breednotes this week about a breeder in my breed who has lost a truly lovely young bitch recently whilst under sedation for hip scoring.