I've just had a stud inquiry from someone who knows what she's doing and exactly why she wants my boy. The bitch is A OK, and while there isn't a lot in common in the 5 gen pedigree, the bitches' is very nice and the owner knows why she wants as near as you can get to an outcross. In other words normally I wouldn't hesitate. Trouble is, the bitch owner didn't know that I lost my younger lad this year, but when she heard she was very keen to use his father who is 10. The father is in good health but I'd intended to retire him because of his age. Having lost the son however, I'd love to get another of his male offspring. I had thought of using him once more over my own young bitch, but she won't be ready for some time and obviously he will be even older then so there are no guarantees. This bitch will be ready soon and although it will be unpredicatable because of the diverging pedigrees, the mating might just produce something good.

So advice please. When would you all consider a big/giant breed dog too old?

Somehow Tony Randall comes to mind to make me think males are "never" too old --or at least you'll never hear them admit it. ;) I"m sure if your old guy could 'rise' to the occasion, he'd probably feel the same way ;)
Then again, I have no experience in the matter and I just wanted to wish you luck in the matter & send you sorries about your younger pup :( Good luck.

Sara, some of my own bitches are in season and judging by his reaction I've no doubt that he'll rise to the occassion - and enjoy doing it! What has me concerned is that my old lad's father sired him aged ten and a half, and was found dead in his sleep the week after. It was probably completely unrelated, but I've always wondered if the nookie was too much for him and I'd hate to think the same might happen to my boy. Thanks for the good wishes, and the sympathy about the young fellow. Losing him at six and a bit was a shock, but at least I know it wasn't anything inheritable.

Sara, who the is Tony Randall?

A rather famous comedic TV actor that I watched a lot as a kid long ago -- Um, guess "The Tony Randall Show" would mean nothing to you, even with reruns. :) :P He was also in the TV series version of "The Odd Couple".

Well the reason he springs to mind is that a couple of years ago he fathered a daughter on his 35 year old wife. He was around 72 at the time. . Saw him in the audience during the Oscars --he's still pepping along. Rumours are is that she's pregnant again. I just cringe, but hey, if they're happy

It might just be worth having a semen sample analysed before going to the trouble, then you will know if it is worth putting him through it! Bit like men, some are never to old, and some loose their fertility.

Good thought Barbara - thanks. The last time he was a dad was less than a year ago and it was a good sized litter, but I'll get that done.

I don't know whether to put my tuppins worth in or not..but you sound quite keen to do this so I thought I would..

I know nothing about the genes and sperm of dogs..but I do know that regards humans...males sperm never fails or produces poor quality ( DUE TO AGE THAT IS) children it is unfortunalty the woman that cause the problems as the eggs are there from birth...they are not re-created so if you have a child at 30 your eggs is 30 years old also...

with men the sperm is not old it is produced regularly as wee know opps :-)

it is hard to keep it clean sometimes ...oh s--t another one...

you all know what I mean..

Pam

As you know Carina had her 4 puppy bitches 3 weeks ago. There father is soon to be 13, hadn't mated a bitch for a while and they had a 33 minute tie. He was the sire of my first litter here in England and I was so happy with it that I just had to use him again, 8 years later!! One of them is nearly the spitting image of a dog pup that I had from that litter, I just hope she keeps going as good as him.

Try it, you just never know.

Thanks Diane, that's reassuring. I am quite keen because although I have one grand-daughter of the old dog, and own another, they are the sisters who hated each other so much that one had to be re-homed. I'm probably being over cautious, but for me the spite fights leave a small question over the temperament of both and much as I'd like to take a litter from one, I won't do it. So I bought in the young bitch specifically for the son who died (I needed to go out a bit), and while I'd be just as happy to use the father, she is only having her first season now and it might be nine months or longer before the next. There are other ways to keep the line going of course, but this would be ideal.

Pam
A couple of months ago, a study came out with a strong correlation of older fathers at conception (55+years) and a higher incidence of sons that developed schizophrenia over younger fathers. They didn't conclude anything, but there was encouragement for more research into the matter.
Just thought I'd mention it ....not really applicable here in Sharon's situation.
toodles

LOL Pam! Sometimes I have bother remembering that children read the board too.

Sharon
get a sperm count done ,or check it yourself (like i do, under an old school microscope) and if it seems ok, then go ahead.....i am sure the dog would agree too!

Sam, thanks! Why on earth didn't I think about checking the sperm count etc myself . I know it sounds daft, but how do you get the sample? The only time I had anything to do with getting one, the dog belonged to a friend and had missed with a couple of bitches. We used one of my females as a teaser, and the friend and my vet were 'helping'. By the time we got the sample, all three of us were hysterical with laughter and just about everyone in a 5 mile radius had arrived to jeer and watch the free X-rated entertaiment. There has to be an easier way ..

well without being too graphic, we used a 1litre lemonade bottle with the narrow neck cut off, with protective tape around the (sharpish) edge & an in season bitch, putting the bottle in the right place at the critical moment.......like we do when collecting stallion semen.As there is no prolonged mating/tie etc its not nearly as tiring or potentially exhausting for the dog.

Thanks Sam. That's more or less what we did with Fred (the dog), but in our hands it turned out to be triple X-rated, never mind graphic :-). Fred and the teaser were very keen to get on with things the natual way, but Fred had no intention whatsoever of either putting the object or wasting the product in a container. After a while the human 'helpers' were laughing too hard to restrain either dog, and the audience were treated to the sight of the vet, a big rugby forward type, chasing poor Fred and trying to er .... assist him manually, as Fred chased the bitch and she did her best to be caught! In the end we let Fred mate the bitch (I'd have been pleased if she had concieved to him), and then got the sample from her. Maybe it was just a case of too many hands spoiling the broth, so I'll have a go today with the old boy and see if I can get something to put under a microscope.

Hi again Sharon
Have you thought of artificial insemination for dogs getting on it is to my mind one way of cutting down the risks for an old dog , I think it is 10 yrs here that a dog will not be allowed mate a bitch
I dont know what the code of ethics is in england . lol Mari

Hi Mari. England???!! Moi? Grrrrrr! LOL! I've never been involved with an application to the KC for permission to use artificial insemination, but I suspect that like most KC things, its probably a bureaucratic lenghty process with a good chance of refusal at the end. Nor do I know of any KC ruling limiting the age of stud dogs, though I intend to ring them tomorrow to make sure. Most UK Codes of Ethics that I know of only say the obvious - that stud dog owners should refuse services to inferior bitches or thos with dubious temperaments - and don't mention age.

Hi sharon, seems you are catching my Mrs Over cautious disease!!! I fully understand why though. Im sure the last time was just a coincidence but it always puts a seed of doubt into your mind. I would suggest getting a sperm sample tested first, and then, if the old man seems happy and willing, let him give it a go!!!Hope he enjoys himsef lol :)

Thanks everyone for your suggestions. The sample was obtained without too much bother, and there is plenty of life in the old dog's wrigglys' yet :-)

I'm sure the old guy was happy to hear your official diagnoses, doc. ;) Nooky time, eh? ;) :) :D :D :P

Sara, the aul' fella didn't care about official diagnoses, but he was very interested in nooky with the teaser, despite the fact that she's even older than him :-).

Absolutely amazing that bitches don't get menopausal. Oh well, no worry about osteoporosis, either ;) Yep, he's all ready to do his duty and "think of England" ;)

Humans are the only animals that do...........menopause is pointless in nature, as the only purpose of living is to reproduce the species.....just shows we have gone past our natural lifespan!

Never Sam! The wise old woman is a evolutionary necessity. Who else would tell silly young women, and all men what to do ;-)?

I think the menopause is to give young women experienced help with bringing up children, as we homo saps are such a pain, rather than the women continuing to produce their own offspring!

I believe that Menopause disproves that women exist only to be considered walking wombs!!! There is value to be had outside of reproductive purposes.
Obviously, or there wouldn't be a sucessful survival rate past it. If all women's purpose was to procreate, no matter how much good medicine and better food there is , lifespan would only extend to age 40 or so.
Thats my humble opinion and I"m sticking by it. :D :D :D

I think humans have the opposite arrangement to wwolves, where it is the immature members of the pack that are babysitters. As human offspring take so long to mature, and their mothers in the natural way of things would be either pregnant or nursing infants, it is the non reproductive females that were designed to offer assistance, as the menfolks job was to hunt and provide. Old ment also come into this category to teach the young male sps about various skills that they are getting too long in the tooth to be out doing!

Societies with very involved Grandparents seem to have much less problems with the older youngsters, they have the wisdom and distance to handle them better than the frazzled parents!

One bvery fraz\zled parent of challenging 11 and 14 year olds!